I have to admit that I'm one of those Americans who, if I had to kill my own meat, I'd probably become a vegetarian. The farthest I've ever gone was stick a lobster in a boiling pot of water (and even that got me a bit unnerved). But seeing as how I'm into preparing myself, should I fight back my queasiness and learn to kill? Would it be enough just to learn how to set snares, track animals, and shoot, and hope that if I was starving, I could do it?

I hope I'm not insulting all the hunters out there, believe me I know all about the overpopulation of deer and the necessity to thin the herd. I'm just not sure if I could do it.

I'm kind of in the same situation as you are. I fished a few times as a kid, but then realized there was no point because I can't stand the taste of fish.

It really depends on the type of survival situation you are preparing for. A short-term survival situation, like from a plane crash or getting lost, food is one of your lowest priorities. Most of us have "ample personal reserves", and can go months without food. So there should really be no reason to learn to hunt for that reason. It's one way to keep yourself busy while you're waiting to be found, and trying to figure out how to do it would keep you just as busy as if you already knew how.

If you are preparing for TEOTWAWKI, well, this is the wrong board. But I think in that situation, there are far too many people for our wildernesses to support if they all went out and tried to feed themselves that way.

With all due respect, I must disagree with downplaying the need for food in a survival situation. While one might tolerate going without food for months, it would be extremely dangerous. The body, once it depletes its storage of fats, will start to breakdown muscle for an energy source. The only source of energy with which the brain can function, is glucose, the blood-brain barrier prevents other potential energy providing molecules from entering the brain.

In fact I would say that when we discus survival needs in general, there is a tendency to downplay how important food really is in a successful outcome. While I am sure there are many stories of survival where food was extremely limited and not a factor in the outcome, from my personal experiences and observations, food is an essential for even short time survival. Having gone through technical rescue training and actual rescues in adverse weather conditions, I have seen both in myself and others on my team quickly succumb to the wet and cold with reduced mental and physical stability. In fact, part of our training was to achieve under close supervision, the point at which we were unable to function with sense or reason. At this point the person or persons were rotated to rest and take nourishment. With only a short rest and some hot liquid and some light food, everyone was able to recovery quickly. Food can provide the needed calories to fight hypothermia and to provide the energy required by the brain to function in a normal fashion. I will always believe food should receive a higher status in our priorities of survival. Pete

I'm not saying food isn't necessary- it's just that "living off the land" is not an important skill to have to survive for 72 hours. Preventing hypothermia and attracting the attention of rescuers are at the top of my priority list. I have a couple power bars in my PSK, because a quick jolt of calories can do wonders to reverse a downward spiral into hypothermia. If the situation goes beyond a few hours, water is the next priority. Once I've got those needs taken care of, and rescue doesn't seem forthcoming, then I'm going to start worrying about feeding myself and my companions.

I am of the opinion that too much knowledge is rarely a hinderance in life. I suggest learning to hunt, fish, trap and forage if you are really serious about wilderness survival. Personally I am in almost an opposite situation as yours. Although I don't hunt, or fish much these days I spent most of my youth doing both on a very regular basis. I even have a decent amount of basic trapping experience but what I lack in a big way are foraging skills. I am currently trying to change that. I own several North American feild guides and try to spend as much time as I can studying them, then see what I have retained when I'm out in the wilderness. Although there are several species of plant that I can confidently identify with 100% accuracy there are many that I can not. I still have a looooooooong way to go in my opinion. Foraging, I believe is a very useful skill in a survival situation. Pete has already demonstrated the importance of food in a survival situation and in a lot of situations foraging plants can bring the most food per the amount of energy expended in its procurement. If youre a vegetarian or you will vomit up all your precious stored nutrients at the site of a fresh kill then foraging is even more valuable. Note however I don't want to give the impression that if youre an expert forager then you don't need to hunt, fish or trap. Animals provide lots of nutrients that (in most places) you simply can not get from plant food alone.

I think that anything that increases a person's self-reliance and independence is a good thing. If you do decide to learn to hunt, then I suggest hooking up with your local chapter of the Becoming an Outdoors Woman organization. Here is their website:

http://www.uwsp.edu/cnr/bow/

Regards, Vince

Christina, one thing to keep in mind is that learning to hunt is not an easy thing to do. Those of us who grew up hunting and fishing as kids probably don't very often pause to consider what a great deal of skill and knowledge we acquired along the way. I suspect learning to hunt later in life would require a great deal of time and energy and probably money too. It's not something you just take an evening course in and then know how to do it. If you do want to learn to hunt, try and find an experienced hunter who will guide and teach you...someone who is truly in touch with and truly understand the laws of nature. And always remember to give thanks for every life you take.

Putting aside the physical skills involved with hunting, you have to ask yourself if you can kill something. I have hunted since I was 12 (almost 12 years) and I am not ashamed to tell you that even after all the times I have dropped the hammer, I still sometimes feel a little guilt over killing an animal.
As others have stated, it really isn't something you need to deal with the power being out for a few days or being stranded in your vehicle. Can you start a fire yet? How are your first aid skills? What about fresh water?
I have had to ask myself these questions not too long ago as well, and I am working on it. As you can see, I am still a new guy on this board, and that is pretty much my situation in real life as well.
If you decide to hunt, I definitely suggest some gun safety training first. In some states it is required, but I am not sure about all. Then, when you can safely use your firearm, try starting with small game. As I said, I have hunted for years. If I can be of any help with this, send me a private message.

At somewhere around 2 days of fasting, the brain can get energy from ketone bodies as well, at a smaller rate than glucose. This is coming from a medical biochemistry textbook. At some point though the lack of food will take a toll on the survivability of a situation.

I'm not a hunter myself, having mostly been raised in towns, with no country family.
So I sometimes ask myself the same question.

Up to now, my own answer is :
- first of all, I would have to learn to skin a killed game and to cook it !
- then I would learn to catch/kill it .....

And as someone suggested in another post, I guess the best way to do this, is learning with an experienced hunter you trust for his skills and knowledge.

well heres my 2 cents on this.
i grew up and live in NY city, so there isnt alot of hunting except upstate and over in PA maybe.

but i say you should still learn to hunt i think, even if its learning a little at a time its something valuable to learn.
like the others said find a experienced hunter(s) you can learn with.

hunting isnt only shooting, it can also be bowhunting, snares traps etc.

think of the peripheral skills you would pick up with hunting, if you take up bow hunting you will get great exercise (especially upper body) you can also learn about foraging, plant identification and even tracking.
of course hunting with a gun would teach you proper weapon safety and probably how to clean and maintain your gun as well.

so im all for people learing how to hunt for many reasons.

Take things in order, learn to use the tools you will use to hunt, learn how to take care of any game that you will be hunting then decide what you want to do. I tought my children how to shoot and how to prepare what they shot so that it is usable. That was was 25 years ago and I doubt that they have used those skills yet, but they have them if needed

Christina,
If you learn to hunt that will be a more responsible person and you will learn the value of a life and true cost of a meal. You will learn more about our existence and a truer relationship between nature and humans.. You might even strip yourself of the false images that society conjures up and forces on us when we are young. There is a big difference between hunting for sport and hunting to survive!

The big moral dilema for me is (and I have been through this with trapping which can be quite crude and seemingly cruel) that in order to survive on the skill you must practice it, which means hunting (or trapping) when you do not actually have to do so in order to survive.

The honest truth is that right now, I don't have to hunt to survive. That still doesn't mean that I kill for no reason. I eat every game animal I kill. Even if you hunt and you can't use all the meat, maybe you could donate it to a local shelter or give to someone who could use the help. I know that there are programs around here that allow hunters to share their animals with charities, so there may be one in your area as well. You might also learn to fish. Learning to fish is a little easier than learning to hunt (IMO), and I have found that it is sometimes more productive than hunting (at least as far as getting something), but you can also throw them back. I release almost all the fish I catch, only keeping those that I want to eat or the few that get injured. I use slightly large hooks so that the fish has a harder time swallowing it.

The hard part of hunting is to know where to set the snare or how to come close enough for a shot (I shot roe deer at less than 30 m but it isn´t easy to come that close). Even if you decide that you can´t kill an animal, it may be worth aquiring the other skills. You will learn to observe your environment which can spare you a lot of trouble.
Apart from hunting you could learn how to prepare game or fish for eating. As others said, having one more skill can´t hurt.

I stand corrected, but there are limitations:

From:Steven B. Harris
Newsgroups: sci.med.nursing,sci.med
Subject: Re: very low blood sugar level

"All cells - even the brain - can also use ketones, intermediates in the oxidation of fats. But there's a limit (about 50%) as to what extent the brain can switch from sugars to ketones, even in starvation."

"And maybe most important, it takes days for the brain to switch to using ketonbodies in the first place. Wich excludes them from saving the brain in any acute episodes."

"Yes, but even weeks of starvation and maximal brain switch to ketone metabolism will not save you from blackout and brain damage if your blood glucose falls to very low levels. They key to the danger is that the changeover is not ever complete, not that it takes too long."

I resisted getting back into this thread- I even deleted one message I entered, because of the seemingly-religious ferver it stirs up, but...

I won't try to press on issue of food for short-term survival, but I can tell you for sure that the "fear of fasting" (however institutionalized it seems to have become) is pretty much ridiculous. I've fasted for up to 7 days (a little longer, actually), once or twice for 5, and several times for 3 or 4 days. I know people who have gone for MUCH longer without any apparent ill effects.

Do you seriously think that humans are the only animal on the planet that has somehow evolved to the point where they keel over dead if not fed each and every day of their lives? Sorry, that's just nonsense. Probably starting with your grandparents back, your ancestors missed a whole lot of meals, and more than a few generations back probably took periods of hunger for granted, going back for millions of years. Your body is not fundamentally different from theirs. From an evolutionary (or statistical) standpoint, you're probably at much more risk from NEVER missing any meals than from fasting. It's remotely possible you will die or suffer injury from exercise, too... it's just more likely you will suffer from the lack of it.

Most of the effects of fasting, in fact, are beneficial... up to a point, of course... but that point is MUCH further out than most people think. Most, and just possibly all, of the negative effects of missing a few meals are imagined, pure and simple.

I'm not trying to win people over, even though it just seems like common sense to me, but, IMHO, implying that people are in danger of health problems or death from missing a few meals, or even a few days' meals, is just silly, and a bit irresponsible. No wonder folks think they're dying if they go 12 hours without being fed.

For those at all interested, and not really terrified of slight discomfort, I recommend trying it for youself. It IS a survival skill. Like knowing you won't die if you spend a night outdoors, knowing you won't die from not eating for a couple of days is inherently empowering. Once you've done it a couple of times, the fear of a little hunger just seems... silly. EXACTLY like the fear of sleeping outdoors once you've been camping a few times.

Disclaimers: I am not a doctor- I'm sure you can find one to back any position you care to take on the issue if you try. It might be relevant that I also eat no sweets, at all, period... and am also very skeptical of the "survival" value of glorified candy bars, whatever they call themselves. Fasting is NOT a good way to lose weight, and in fact can sabotage some other efforts in that direction. Addiction to other substances- such as caffiene (and, IMHO, sugar), can cause real withdrawal symptoms that are easily confused with the effects of doing without food. Your mileage may vary. Consult a qualified astrologer before adopting any diet. Three out of five traditional shamans surveyed on the island of Tonga disagreed with my position, and said that a person will die in a few days without beetle nuts.

Make up your own minds, but don't let someone who's never tried it scare you with their own imagined hobgoblins.

I agree with you completely PL. Yes, you're going to be uncomfortable for awhile without food, but you're not going to die. After all, this site is "Equipped To Survive" not "Equipped To Be Comfortable".

I don't know. Deliberately going without food in a survival situation when food is readily available just seems counterintuitive to me. I mean, if it's available why not eat? And has been mentioned, it also seems logical to assume that fasting would result in increased risk of hypothermia in cold weather. Have there been any studies done on this?

You make a great point about testing your limits prior to an emergency. And shelter, water, and rescue all come before food. But once those are taken care of, what's the harm in trying to stock up the larder?

Regards, Vince

If you do decide to try hunting, especially using snares and the like, make sure you check out your state and local hunting laws first. A conservation officer will be more than happy to help you understand the laws.

I really like the advice to join a local hunting club/organization - a very sensible way to start.

I perceive to some degree this is drifting from the original intent of the poster regarding the need/desire to learn to hunt. If so, I suggest we can start a new thread or with the permission of Christina and/or Chris/Doug we can continue our discourse on this thread.

I too have fasted for several days, under controlled conditions, i.e. at home/work, not in the woods or out in the wet and cold for any significant period of time. I agree with you that missing a few meals for most folk is not an issue and is most likely beneficial. I, however diverge with this belief when the body is under stress, such as being borderline hypothermic. I believe and think that I can support my point of view with anecdotal and scientific data that an individual can prevent or recover from hypothermia more readily if they have a ready source of quickly digestible and sustainable calories. In addition, I would contend that an individual under both physical and emotional stress could function with greater purpose and coherence if they have that same ready source of quickly digestible and sustainable calories. I have witnessed many individual performing strenuous activities, associated with rescues quickly decompensate due to a lack of energy reserves. I feel that even for short term survival, an individual who has a few “power bars” or other energy providing food source will be able to resist the development of hypothermia, be able to perform activities associated with the survival mode (such as shelter building, fire making, etc.), as well as make more coherent decisions then an individual who is lacking an energy source. Pete

>>Deliberately going without food in a survival situation when food is readily available just seems counterintuitive to me. <<

Wow, I don't THINK I suggested anything like that- that was certainly never the intent. When you're in a survival situation, you do whatever helps you survive.. of course.

The point is that food is a fairly low priority in MOST cases. You're not going to starve in days, It takes weeks (at least), and if you're devoting all of your time in trying to find food because you're terrified of hunger (the fear is far worse than the hunger itself), you're using up time and resources that might be better used actually helping you live through the experience, rather than avoiding a little discomfort. In other words, you're out setting up a snare line, or fish lines when maybe you should be building a signal fire, or just walking out with that energy...

I also PERSONALLY feel that food items in a survival kit *generally* take up room and weight better used for other things.

Make your own choices, but, for my money, I have a fleece cap in my pouch that takes about as much room and less weight than two "power" (read SUGAR) bars, and I think it will probably do as much to stave off hypothermia... and certainly for a LOT longer. The point is not to ignore any resources available for survival when it happens, the point is to maximise the utility of the limited resources you set aside for that possibility.

Sugar (and simple carb) addiction is insidious, and when a person has lost most of the ability to convert other foods into the sugars the body really needs, he or she can quickly get into symptoms brought on by "low" glucose levels. This is not starvation, this is withdrawal, and simply feeding the addiction is not really an appropriate long-term solution.

Note that this person has also lost a lot of the ability to easily utilize their own body fat- same enzymes. Does that seem like a good thing to have lost for survival purposes?

If you allow your body to relearn how to maintain the needed enzymes to process "real" food, sugar withdrawal simply not a factor.

It's like attributing the symptoms of tobacco withdrawal to a healthy diet when a person quits smoking and starts eating healthy. The fact that the symptoms occur together does not establish cause-and-effect.

But, some people will never be convinced. Some will take sugar bars, magazines, decks of cards and a teddy bear. That's fine, it's your life, your kit, your decisions, do what you think best.

>>I perceive to some degree this is drifting from the original intent of the poster regarding the need/desire to learn to hunt. If so, I suggest we can start a new thread or with the permission of Christina and/or Chris/Doug we can continue our discourse on this thread.<<

I agree that this is thread drift, and, for the record, I have nothing against hunting, and think learning to hunt is a good idea (for those who are inclined in that direction) for several excellent reasons. That doesn't mean I think it's necessarily the first thing one should be thinking about in most survival situations, that's another question.

I'd just as soon let it drop. We covered all this before, ad nauseum, and lots of people expressed their opinions on it- most without much supporting evidence. Maybe someone can post a link to the old thread and save any of us having to go through all of it again.

It just seemed to me that the POV being expressed recently was getting very one-sided, espeicially when I read phrases like "I will always believe"... that's not open to discussion, that's faith.

I agree a warm fleece hat and other appropriate clothing can go a long way in preventing or delaying the onset of hypothermia. I would consider them an essential and primary line of defense.

Likewise, I consider having energy sources to increase my changes of survival an important basic. I was unable to copy the section of this chart I wanted to include to support my point of view, but if you go to this web site and look at the chart, you will see that in early stage hypothermia, warm sweet liquids and high-energy foods are suggested. Pete

http://www.hypothermia.org/fieldchart.htm

?I also PERSONALLY feel that food items in a survival kit *generally* take up room and weight better used for other things.?

A very well-reasoned objection. And I agree a hat is more valuable than power bars. But there?s no reason that you can?t have both if you want. It?s your kit after all. (A teddy bear though?)

I don?t know anything about sugar addiction. I rarely use the refined stuff myself. Now steaks and beer, on the other hand..... <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

While putting together my current wilderness kit I made sure that I had just enough room left over in it for 4 boullion cubes and 2 decaf coffee bags. Nutritional value= zero. The coffee might cheer me up and the boullion might make the squirrel more palatable. But the bottom line is, either one will be easier to consume than plain hot water?especially if I?m huddling under my space blanket, in a sleet storm, with a broken ankle.

Cheers, Vince

>>Nutritional value= zero. The coffee might cheer me up and the boullion might make the squirrel more palatable. But the bottom line is, either one will be easier to consume than plain hot water?especially if I?m huddling under my space blanket, in a sleet storm, with a broken ankle.<<

Er, no offense, but that would be the classic "comfort" argument. There were lots and lots of variations on that earlier, with lots of emphasis on just how IMPORTANT comfort could be, and in how many ways it was important, with scenarios, and anecdotes from real life, and attempts (seriously) to relate various levels of discomfort to various real dangers...

I'll try not to relate it to teddy bears... but if a teddy bear is what one needs to survive, then by all means.. I just don't happen to include either in my personal kit... <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Say what you want but I REFUSE to remove Mr Teddikins The Teddy Bear from my survival kit!!!!!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No offense taken. I'm not talking comfort--I'm talking about getting a pint of hot liquid inside of me as fast as possible. From what I have been taught about hypothermia, when you start shivering uncontrollably then you have very little time left--especially if you are alone. Anything that will help bring up your core temperature, or keep it up, has got to give you some advantage.

Even though this thread has drifted a bit, it's still been a worthwhile discussion IMO

Regards, Vince

Ok. You can keep him. But remember, if things get too rough out there he might just turn on you. It's happened before.... <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Vince

Ya... well... he's not fire retardant so he knows to watch himself or he could become tinder. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Didn't somebody mention in a thread recently that more people die by teddy bears than grizzly bears? Just keep that in mind.

Hey, no offence taken, at least you're honest. In answer to your question, I think everyone should, at some time in their life, hunt, kill, clean, cook, and eat their own meal. Besides the fact that you then know "you CAN do it", the experience brings on a level of understanding that is beyond my ability to explain. This brings to mind a story from about 12 years ago...I took my step-daughter fishing, and we caught some nice catfish. Once home, my wife and I had a discussion about wether she was going to help me clean the fish or not, and the only reason I won was because my wife couldn't keep her in the house (very curious child, Bonnie). To make a long story short, as I stood there with a skinned, gutted catfish with the head still attached, bonnie asked (with a very serious look on her 4 year old face) "When ya gonna kill it?" No nightmares, no getting sick, no problems, just a young child learning about the circle of life. By the way, we both enjoyed the fish dinner very much that night (my wife couldn't eat any, too "grossed out" watching her little girl helping out through the window).

Troy

I'm with ya 100%, Pete.

Thanks especially to Norad45, who pointed me to the Becoming an Outdoors Woman website.

I learn so much here. God, I love this site.

You are quite welcome. Do us a favor. If you do decide to give hunting a try, either with or without B.O.W., please let us know how it goes!

Regards, Vince.

Brian:

You keep that teddy bear for two good reasons.

One, you will be fighting a current government conspiracy to denude the citizens of their security blankets so that the people have to depend on government jack booted "security" for their safety. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Two, even a small teddy bear should be able to conceal a little .25 automatic in its stuffing. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I can not "IRRREFUTABLY" prove number one, but they will get my little blue cotton "blanky" when they pry it from my cold dead hands. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As long as you A. have a license, B. obey the game laws, and C. eat what you harvest, what's the problem?

Yeah... but given the choice, I'd rather be comfortable too.

Bounty... I'm surprised at you... a fan of the 1911 even mentioning a mafia lobotomy tool <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. By the way, good to see ya back.

Troy

wildcard163:

1. It is tough to carry a 1911A1 in your bathrobe (Smoking jacket, although I don't smoke.) and still look debonair.

2. There is no Mafia and that group that does not exist prefers the Ruger .22 for attitude adjustments.

Thanks!

Bountyhunter

Now the secret is out! Thanks a lot! <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The "problem" (or more accurately "my moral dilema") is that it is not being done out of true and dire necessity. Keep in mind that by my saying this, it is coming from someone (me) who has spent most of his life hunting and fishing and has even done his small share of trapping... not some urban-dwelling, politically correct, neo hippy, city slicker. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I have begun in recent years to find it increasingly difficult to kill living creatures when there is not a true and dire necessity.

Now the question I ask myself is, whether or not practicing to prepare myself to be able to survive is justification enough to practice hunting and more specifically trapping (which is inherintly cruel) with primitive tools and small kit tools. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Brian:

With the advent of digital cameras, you can practice hunting and shooting at moving targets to your hearts content without killing anything, making a lot of noise, upsetting the politically correct (No matter how much fun upsetting them is.) or violating any laws. Buy a camera buttstock and fire away. You can check your results on the screen, or take them home to review your technique.

Trapping is another matter. You can use live traps and the practical aspects of that are that in a survival situation extending for a long period of time, you are going to want to consider animal husbandry so that you can raise what you need instead of always chasing it. Modern technology gives you a lot of alternatives to do what you want without killing animals.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter

Please don't take offence, I respect your viewpoint, but unless you're a vegetarian, what's the difference between a slaughterhouse doing the processing for you and doing it yourself?

This is coming from someone who has hunted/fished/foraged quite a few years, and after seeing the process at a slaughterhouse (gory details left out on purpose), an animal taken in the wild (yes, even in a trap) suffers less than those that are commercially processed (after seeing it first-hand), in my opinion.

Troy

Have you tried this? No doubt that the practice stalking would be good experience, but I am just wondering if it would feel the same. Anyone who has hunted can tell you about the adrenaline rush you feel the first time you take a shot at a deer. It is something that has to be controlled or you might as well just unload your rifle and throw your ammo at the animal.
Even after all the hunting I have done, I still feel it. I have just managed to learn to control it.
Does taking photos give the same sensation?
Not being difficult, just wondering.

I'm a camera only hunter. Or birdwatcher, depending on how you define it. One of my most exciting moments was when I was in the woods near my house with my camera, and there was an American Redstart Warbler flitting around. It was always within 20 feet of me, but it was always behind something or never holding still quite long enough to focus. After about 10 minutes of this and a whole roll of film, I have an identifiable picture of him, but his butt is behind a leaf. It's not going to ever be on the cover of a magazine (or even on my web page), but it's my favorite picture. If I had a net, I could have caught him easier.

Goon:

Have you played video games? Do you get caught up in the action? Does the adrenaline pump up and tunnel vision take over?

You and I both know it does if you are interested in winning the video game. Once you have killed game animals, you know you can do it, but seeing them and shooting them with a camera will depend on how important it is for you to succeed, just like a video game.

Goatrider gave a great example of how you can get caught up in the moment if it is something you want. If the actual kill is necessary for you, than the camera angle will probably not work for you.

Bountyhunter

Since you put it that way, I do kind of understand. I often find myself trying to look around corners or peek over rocks when I am sniping at the red army on Flashpoint. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
As far as hunting, I don't really like it as much as I just like to get out in the woods. I often pass up shots on animals. The kill isn't really important. I do still hunt because I like venison and there is only one way I know to get it.
Anyhow, I can see your point. I might have to try that. I have literally gotten close enough to deer to reach out and whack them with my rifle. Some of those encounters would have made unbelievable photos.
There was also one time with a large black bear that would have made a great picture, but I was more comfortable with a rifle on that one than I would have been with a camera. <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I take no offense. Your viewpoints are helpful. I'm really just trying to put out there what I have experienced and then get the opinions of people like yourself to help understand why it may or may not be justified. I'm honestly leaning towards the justified side. Obviously killing animals to survive is something I see as fully justified. Also, I realize that I have much less of a chance of survival unless I actually practice the skills that are likely to be required in a survival situation. Sure I have hunted and guided for years with rifle and shotgun and am probably what many would consider an expert but odds are I will have neither rifle nor shotgun with me if/when place is a survival situation. When you look at it like the idea of practicing and gaining experience, it seems like a no-brainer.... ah but I still get that feeling of guilt. Deadfall traps are nasty things when they don't make a clean kill. Finding a wounded animal in your trap the next morning is (for me) a lot worse feeling than wounding a deer whos blood trail you follow to finish him off as soon as you catch up with him.

I'm one who absolutely Loves and Values the Great Outdoors! But personally has never cared to actually Hunt. The latter does go back a lot to my "Niceness", -towards the idea of shooting / killing animals.

However, -This in no way effects or diminishes my beleifs in doing so for Survival, Defense, Food Procuration, or Wildlife Management of purposes. I'm also not oppossed to Hunting for Sport. So long as the latter is not of the "Shooting Fish in a Barrel", of a type!

For folks like us, I firmly beleive in the Value of at least knowing HOW to Hunt, Fish, Shoot,Trap, and etc. Of so knowing and being familiar with, Hunting etc, Firearms, Wildlife, Food Forageing, Survival of course, -along with so many other aspects of our Great Outdoors!

Even I wouldn't hesitate a moment to hunt for Food!, Defense and Protection, etc.

(When everyone else was mysteriously Grossed Out back in hi school Biology's disections, -I hadn't the slightest problem. Nor did I when once helping to gut a freshly slaughtered cow.)

Hunting and such? At least know and be somewhat familiar with the HOW of it. Your Life, -as well as that of Others around you, -could just someday depend on it.

Pardon Please a bit of upcoming redundancy that I've found in my Edit. But I want to parpsh the following points in somehow. Here they are,-

And so this Non-Hunter is far from totally oppossed to Hunting. This non-hunter in recent years has been Reading, -not passing over, -anything on such that comes my way. I've just picked up a late 60's copy of "The Hunting Encyclopedia". A Chock Full of Information sort of tome!

There's also the Great Outdoors Personal Experience Values involved! As too can be gained from such HOW sources. As exemplified in Outdoor Life's great feature, -"This Happened to Me!" As well as from among many other sources.

Again, -Do at least know something of the HOW! Of Hunting and it's Associated Like. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Christina[/email]

Scott:

While it is nice to have a mindset about being willing to hunt in an emergency situation, it is more important to do so before hand.

You have to kill the animal without going through a moral question and answer period that might put a quick kill out of range.

You have to retreive the dead animal without thinking of what you did to something that has not done you any harm or threatened you.

You have to gut, skin, and in some cases remove musk glands to prevent the animal from becoming unpaletable.

You have to prepare the animal for consumption or preservation for future use.

Doing the mental exercises and having the instructions on proper proceedure are all well and good, but it is a "blood ritual", and until you spill the blood and eat the harvest you can not really know.

Bountyhunter

(PS The first time you get "hives" after handling an animal, you will swear that you will never do that again, but you will.)

However if youre in SW TX where whitetail season (near Del Rio) is often nice and warm and you get Deer Ticks all over you, that might make you think again. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I hate those things...

Oh, I agree with your main point and all of your supporting ones, Bounty. I did not mean any implication that one should intellectualize or moralize there on the spot! Of course one Cannot and Should Not entertain such luxuries at any such time. As you say, -the Game will be Long Away! This goes back to what I've said about not hesitating in such a time or situation. Your Point(s) are Agreed With and WellTaken. I regret any misunderstanding as may have come about, -if I was less clear on this than I could have been.

Also, some *Non-Neccessary", "Non-Survival / Self Defense" etc Hunting Practice beforehand, -would serve well in following Survival / Self Defense, etc situations, -as may later arise!

Sorry for the long time in answering, -but I've only gotten back to a computer screen today!

Indeed and Agreed, -No Hesitation and Prepare and Practice Beforehand!

Thanks for your Observation and Comment! I was not however endorseing such hesitation or it's like. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]bountyhunter[/email]

Also Bounty you are quite Right, -that however much one may swear to never do it again, -"You Will!". Survival Imperatives do come again to the fore. Not that I'm one to initially swear to not do so again! But as to this main Point of your's as well, (One WILL Do so again!),-I stand Strongly and Squarely in Aggreement with you. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

Scott:

Get out in the woods, kill something (Legally!), gut it, take it home, skin and quarter it (Or smaller pieces if it is a large animal.), prepare it, and eat it.

After you have done that, write back and describe the hunt, the animal, the kill, the preparation, and the taste.

Bountyhunter

Christina:

I know exactly how you feel. To quote the estimable Horace Kephart, "Butchering is the most distasteful part of a hunter's work--a job to be sublet when you can; but sometimes you can't."

I personally believe that hunting is a very valuable skill to have, for reasons which go way beyond simply learning a good long-term survival skill.

The main problem with hunting is that it's, well, messy. Very messy. First of all, you have to actually *kill* something. This is not a action which should be taken lightly. Is it any wonder that primitive societies so often ascribed spiritual qualities to animals?

Second, you have to butcher what you kill (if you can't get somebody else to do it for you), and even if you're very skilled at butchering, it's still *very* messy work. Third, you have to clean up the mess, unless you want to attract unnecessary attention to yourself. Then, after all that hard and dirty work, you can prepare your meal and eat it--and then clean up again.

I, too, have thought that if I *had* to kill and butcher my own food rather than picking it up in nice little neat plastic-wrapped bundles of organic free-range goodness at my local gourmet/health food store, that I might have to go veggie...but the fact is, I just like meat way too much. Geez, the first time I caught a fish when I was a kid, I just couldn't bear to gut it...unfortunately, my mother didn't make me do it. I was glad to get out of doing it at the time, but I think I would have been better off if she had.

I think it's odd that in our society, we tend to assign butchery to a category somewhat worse than killing. After all, couldn't depriving another being of life possibly be worse than cutting it up, cooking it, and eating it? Perhaps it's that we tend to anthropomorphize too much, and as a result, treat our pets like our family, and other animals like our pets.

The thing about hunting is, it's difficult to do without gaining a large amount of respect for nature and our proper place in it. See, when you're killing and butchering your own meat or fish, you're very much more appreciative of what you've done than if you've just taken a ticket and waited in line at the deli counter. Also, you actions tend to have much less impact on the environment than commercial farming practices (or at least much less cruelty to the animals in question). These are important things to learn, and I think they're important things to teach, as well.

Now, if you *really* want to get hard-core about it, try it without a firearm.

Anyway, remember, if you ever find yourself *needing* to hunt, it's probably a little too late to start learning how to do so. So get out there, thank the spirit of the animals you take, and don't waste anything...

Amper,
Reading your post brought me a certain satisfaction. It brought my mind peace as you have inadvertently shown me that I am not the only one thinking in the sense you have just demonstrated. Agreeing on all your points from not wasting anything to learning the skills. But most importantly that you should spiritually respect those animals who you take and beg for forgiveness from their ghosts.
Not to forget your point about modern destructive farming methods. Hell, I could start a whole threat about it. But this is the wrong forum for a discussion of that nature.

Personally I see no reason for hunting unless for survival purposes only. So I have chosen not to eat meat. Nevertheless I still want to learn to track, kill and prepare. Yet I would not be able to forgive myself for taking a life, killing a family member for unnecessary reasons. Knowing a life was strangled in my snare gives me a sick feeling.
No, until the day I have learned all other skill and knowledge there is to learn about bushcraft and there is a survival need to sacrifice a life I will steer well away from it.

Short answer: Yes.
Long Answer:
Meat comes from dead animals. You can either outsource the killing, which in a meat farm is often very inhumane (a good number of cows are skinned alive and they survive a good 7 minutes into subsequent dismemberment), or you cna do it yourself. I get no thrill out of killing an animal. The first time I did it I thought I was going to vomit, to be honest, and that was just some poultry (I didn't expect the bird to LITERALLY run around spraying blood everywhere from it's neck for 30 seconds - I've learned much since then).
But as a hunter, you learn that there's a balance to everything, and you are part of the balance. You learn to respect the animals, even as you kill them to eat them, and in some mysitical sense, you realize that they give up their spirit to nourish yours. Yeah, it sound hokey, but that's what I think.

The next part of hunting is the sense of self-reliance. Well, sort of, if you count self-reliance as using a factory made gun or bow as your killing tool. I guess to be REALLY self-reliant, you'd need to learn to hunt with a wooden spear or rocks or something.
But I digress.
The point is that you are taking charge, know you can provide for yourself, that you won't starve, that you can be responsible for your life in a way that no grocery store shopper ever can understand.

Reinhardt Woets:

I completely agree with you, especially with your point about learning the most necessary areas of bushcraft first, and personally I would wait until it was absolutely necessary to learn to kill. Of course, you can still learn to track and increase your own awareness of the possibilities involved with hunting.

I have been a vegetarian since I was about 8 (I was quite impressionable as I still am!) after my sister became one, but for very different reasons than for which I have stayed vegetarian; I just did not like the idea of killing. Now, I have reasons based on the way we do things in this and many other countries, the idea that supply and demand must be upheld to compete with other suppliers. This ensures that there is always waste. I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum, but I'm explaining why I personally am driven towards bushcraft.

I'm not sure about ghosts, my education is very scientifically based so I can't help that, but I like the idea in general and do not discourage it for the sake of humanity, while leaving it for people who I think really believe in this, indigenous peoples most of all, for whom I have a great deal of respect.

Ian

After my previous posts in this thread regarding the morality of killing and more specifically killing via trapping I figured I'd stay away from this one. Well I failed. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My wife is a vegetarian and I eat very little meat. I eat oily cold water fish once a week and any wild game that I may kill but that is about it. I refuse to buy processed meat other than the fish that my doctor (and family friend) insists that I eat. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That being said I am a hunter. I grew up as a very avid hunter in fact. These days I go on maybe one weekend hunt per year primarily because I get all the meat I need for the year from one deer and a couple wild turkeys so there is really no point in returning again in the same year. I usually make the trip on opening weekend of Texas whitetail season. I have unlimitted access to 5000 acres of SW Texas land where I am the only person around other than a single ranch hand whom I have known since I was 12 years old, so it is certainly a hard opportunity to not take advantage of at least once a year. This weekend is actually opening weekend for SW Texas and I am going on my annual trip to my leased land which is what got me thinking about things as I read these threads. I don't hunt for trophies, I only kill animals that benefit the environment with their death and I use everything... and I really mean everything. A lot of people say that they use "everything" but I am for real and I have picutres to prove it <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. The area where I hunt is extremely over-populated with female whitetail so for a skilled stalker (no I dont use blinds) and marksman/archer, finding a large mature doe to take is far from an impossible task. I usually try to take her on the first morning if I can then spend the rest of the weekend processing the meat, skin, bone and even preparing sinew. I also dont take any food with me when I hunt and the nearest civilization is about 20 miles away so if I dont take her on the first morning then either I'm gonna be real hungry or I'm gonna be eating jack rabbit. Trust me... the jack rabbits in SW TX are the size of small dogs and dont tast nearly as good as the little bunnies some of you may have eaten in the past. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Ah but I digress (as usual).

Now I will get to the point (I know you're thinking "finally he gets to the point" <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) In all my years of hunting I have never made a single kill that I did not have a guilty feeling about. Not once. I'm the kind of person that doesn't even squish insects in the house if I can cup them in my hand and take them outside. Every kill I have every made in my life (including mice, rats, a snake, fish, fox, deer, dove, quail, phesant, ducks, geese, mountain goat, rabbit squirrel and a whole lot more) has left me feeling bad "afterwards". I will not get in to the spirituality of it all since it is something I feel too strongly about to debate objectively but I will say simply that I am extremely spiritual about my killing.... extremely! So you ask yourself, "if he feels so bad after making a kill, how/why does he continue?" Well that takes us back to the spiritual aspects which I'm not getting in to (not today anyway <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

There is something my father told me as a small boy that I want to share with the rest of you. Unlike a lot of other stuff he told me growing up, these words have stuck very well in my mind over the years. One time after a kill when I was young and first started hunting I was standing over my deer about to split him/her open I asked my father if he ever felt bad after making a kil..l. if he got an ill feeling standing over his deer before inserting the knife to split him/her open. Much to my surprise he said "yes I do, every single time." This really surprised me to hear him say this. Then he said what really has stuck with me for all these years and always will. Something that I will pass on to future generations hopefully.

He said "I get that feeling every time I make a kill and I hope everyone does. I think the day that you make a kill and don't feel bad afterwards, then that is the day when you should give up hunting."

Maybe that's the difference between a hunter and a killer? Maybe not. I won't debate that but I did want to shared his words with you guys (and girls) because based on what I am reading, there are a lot of you that will understand those words and take them with you as I have.

For me, I don't think the word "bad" accurately describes my feelings most of the time. It's a very intense feeling, most akin to sadness, I suppose, but there is another thread in there as well. Sad, but OK. I am not articulate enough to describe it. It is for certain an intense, primevial feeling for me. "Spiritual" is accurate if not mis-interpreted to mean "religious" in my case.

A few I felt unequivocably bad about, such as accidentally running over a large black snake with my ATB and having to euthanize it. (... so we ate it for dinner that night and the salted dried skin is tucked away in my shop awaiting a worthy use...).

Enough said by me.

AyersTG:

Who sells "ALL TERRAIN BOATS"; (ATB).?





Sorry, I had to throw that in there as you all are getting way too meloncholy, and California sensitive on me.

Bountyhunter

LMAO

hmmm...

I was not going to add my own 2cents until I saw this post...

Killing is killing, whether for meat or for sport or for power or for privilage. I like my meat. I am an omivore and have very little compulsions about it. I respect anyone who is a vegitarian or has gone completely Vegan. It just isn't for me.

To get the meat, it needs to be killed, then butchered. I cry every time I kill something, from a mouse up to the last deer. I weep knowing that it will be missed by someone/something else. Then I get on to butchering.

I came to hunting from the kitchen side of things. Chicken, fish, lamb - I cleaned and butchered it all from the time I could hold a knife before I ever went hunting. It is amazing how simmilar chicken and sheep are when taking them apart. I figure because I have been a cook for (gulp) decades now, I know the anatomy of animals well enough to know the cleanest way to kill them.

I still prefer to get the 1/2 of mutten every fall from a local farm and butcher and preserve it myself. Being introduced to what you are going to be eating just turns it for me, but I have helped with the process on the farm, and can say I have used many different ways to obtain my food. In a pinch, I could take down the largest animal in the area to feed me and mine, but I would prefer not to have to.

And, yes, I have done it (though it was a rabbit) without a firearm.

Rena
(thinking it must be a guy thing, most guys I know can't do the butchering after the kill - I deal with blood once a month, so what is a little gore form my food?)
<img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I Appreciate your Advice. I can't say when that will be however. It can be a few years from now, -or many. I possibly may not get around to it ever. Maybe a Survival Situation will pop up and Force me! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It is Good Advice from you in any event, -and I do Sincerely Appreciate it!

I Do happen to be PRO Hunting!, -and NOT Anti-Hunting. Even if I personally Don't Care Much / Havn't yet gotten around to, -actually doing such myself.

Again, -a Real Hunt sometime for at least some Practice, -is Good Advice.

Whenever I may do such, -I'll describe the Experience as you Suggest. Thanks again for your Views and Advice! I mean that Sincerely. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]bountyhunter[/email]

i must say i have done lots of hunting and am not sure how good the practice is ... unless ofcourse im placed in a survival situation with a 7mm mag and a 3x9 scope or a 40# compound bow ... now if that happens them my expertise will shine <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To those of you who've commented on "Begging for Forgiveness from the Animal's Ghost", -I can see Pros and Cons to that. Feel a Respect / Reverence toward the Animal, Yes, -But Forgiveness Begging is not Neccessarily so Neccessary!

Animals themselves of course routinely kill other Animals. As Neccessary, -and with let's say an "Unspoken and Understood Respect".

Even an Animal Grazing on Grass, -is doing so towards another Life Form! (and you Vegetarians as well!)

Does the Bear beg Forgiveness from the Salmon's Spirit or Ghost?!

No, -it just kills and Eats, -as it Honestly does find Neccessary, -for it's Livlihood and Survival!

And we too, provided we're so doing, -and as part of the Total Web of Nature and Life, -Shouldn't Feel any Guiltier!

That said, and on the other hand, -with our being Higher, Spiritual and Intelligent Beings, -who know at least some things Better, -Perhaps something can be further said, -for "Begging Forgiveness from the Animal's Ghost".

But again, -in many Respects, -I don't feel that going that Far, -may be really Neccessary!

Real Respect and Regard for the Animal, -Yes! "Forgiveness Begging"?, -Not Neccessarily So, -and perhaps a No! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]brian[/email]

I like the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy take on this issue. They developed an animal that actually wanted to be eaten, and was capable of saying so, clearly and distinctly. Tasty too, I would presume. It would even "nip out and shoot himself". Humanely.

I should expand. Learning the psychology of killing and the basics of stalking and animal behavior is certainly effective training, but only to an extent. My point is that sitting in a blind with a high powered rifle waiting for deer to come to a corn feeder isnt exactly the type of training that is going to keep you alive when youre stuck in the woods with a knife and a PSK.m <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even hunting without blind or feeder or rifle and stalking with a compound bow (as I have often done) really isn't gonna help much when it's just you, your pocket knife and your psk.

Keep in mind brian that a common survival situation is when you get lost while hunting. In that case, you'll have those hunting tools with you.

Can't argue with that. I can only hope that if I do get lost in the woods it will be while hunting rather than hiking. Unfortunately for me, I do a lot more hiking than hunting and most of my hunting is done in the same 5000 acre area that I know like my own backyard. Hiking however, I do all over the place and often places I have never been to before or maybe only been to once or twice. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Scott:

If you agree with the need (Sometimes.) to hunt, do not wait until the need is thrust upon you.

As soon as you get done reading this message, go to the sporting goods store, buy a hunting license, ask someone you know and trust to take you afield and kill something (Legally!) that you will eat the next day.

I have said it before in other posts and I will say it again; if I encounter someone who could have been prepared for theirselves and their families and is not, it is highly unlikely that I will share what limited resources I have. If a person in any group I am in that may encounter an emergency situation, no matter how short or temporary, is not willing to kill and process game to supplement supplies we should have with us, I will not allow them to live off my williness to survive by hunting.

I know I come off as cold, but tough love gets more results than rubbing someones back and telling them not to worry as someone else can do it for them.

Now get out there and harvest tomorrows meal. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter

Brian:

You old Texas tycoon you. Buy a folding slingshot, set up a range with multiple hanging carpets for a backstop and a box under them to catch the "BB's", ball bearings, or any other ammunition you care to use in it. On dry land in the states, it is highly unlikely you will be lost long enough to justify taking down large animals. A rabbit, lizard, snake, or other small animal should be enough as long as you have sufficient water to digest the food. No water, and the biggest gun you can carry won't dig a well fast enough for you to process the food you kill or carry in. <img src="/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter

I have a slingshot that I use for plinking rocks when Im sittin by the campfire and considering that I've hit a TEXAS SIZED jackrabbit with 410ga and watch him turn around and laugh at me bfore running off, I just dont see my slingshot getting much penetration on anything larger than cricket (and I could hunt them better with a throwing stick). You know that jackrabbits in TEXAS are bigger than Cyotes in New Mexico right? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BTW if Jed Clampit can strike oil with a firearm why cant I dig a well? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jed Clampit was one of them "Hill people" whereas you're a "Flatlander", and everyone knows them "Hill people" have all the luck and they're not even Irish.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Brian:

You have got to remember to NOT USE the .410 shotshells loaded with rock salt that your girl friends father gave you after he found out your intentions toward his daughter were "honorable?".

Do head shots with consistantly heavier slingshot ammo until the rabbits hit start to look like some of your compadres after a tequila sunrise. Once you have that down pat, the slingshot ammo will be heavy enough and you can walk up and finish the rabbit off with a quick snap of the neck.

I don't know about the size of your rabbits or the size of your Texas yarns, but I once worked in a bakery that had no mice or rat problems because the cockroaches ate them all. If you stepped on one of those cockroaches, they would carry you 30 feet before you could react fast enough to step off. One of the guys thought he had an answer to that and brought steel spiked golfing shoes to work. After stepping on the first cockroach with those shoes, word got around and all the cockroaches in the plant started looking him up because the shoes did such a nice job of scratching the itches they would get on their backs. We came into work one day and found his clothes on the floor with just his bones in them. One of the guys who spoke cockroach was told he wasn't scratch stomping them fast enough to make them happy so they decided to eat him.

Better keep your rabbits and your coyotes out of Wisconsin bakeries!

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good point. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Im pretty sure those were 12ga. I'll ask him when he's here for thanksgiving. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like Texas cockroaches to me. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have mentioned that one should get out there and Practice, -*Before* the Survival Need is thrust upon them.

I blame you Not, -for Not wanting to share your Game, -with one who has not also done everything possible, -to provide for their own Game or Needs! (Not that I'm such a one!).The same goes for Fish, -in that it reminds me of the Bible's Advice of "Give a Man a Fish, -and you Feed him for a Day, -but *Teach* a Man to Fish, -and you Feed him for a Lifetime!" (One can of course Self Teach, and Self Practice).

This also reminds me of Captain John Smith and Jamestown. With the Normal Rigors of Survival in a New and Unfamiliar Land, -along with a particularly Rough Winter! Some didn't want to Pitch In and Work. "Whoever doesn't work, -Doesn't eat!", -went John Smith's famous reply!

And also the Gall of having a Non, or Anti Hunter, -in your Party, (Both of which I am certainly Not!, -in the ways I've earlier described), -who yet Asks or Expects to Share in the Bounty (No allusive pun intended!), -of your Hunt!

I again am at least a Good Ways from being a Non Hunter! And am certainly Not an Anti-Hunter!

You make some Very Good Points, -on the Crucial Value of such (Pre) Practice, -and I am in Very Much Aggreement with you there!

Again, -as long as I first don't do such Pre-Practice, -I do Not blame you for not wishing to share with me, -the Fruits of *your* Hunt! That's very Correct and Understandable of you, -in such situations. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]bountyhunter[/email]