>>but what offends me the most is the price they gouge you for because most people dont feel they can go elsewhere for a operating system.<<

I hope we're in the death-throes of this monopoly now, and they're gouging for whatever they can get, while they still can.

As of right now (since I'm a programmer and hobbyist) I have four computers in my personal office. Unusually, for someone in that position, I have four LEGAL copies of Windows, and of Office. Just for that, I have more money in the software than in the hardware (at least, not counting LCD monitors). Add some basic software just to get the hardware working (fax modems, DVD burners) and you're up to $1,000 per PC.

Then, you boot to the Linux side, and suddenly almost all the applications are free. Thousands of programs, often several in each category, available for download at no cost. Even when I do contribute money to the effort (and I have), NO ONE expects or requires me to buy another copy of every program for each and every PC in the room, even though some are only used occasionally.

The real money savings in Linux, if that's what you care about, is not in the OS, it's in the apps. Check sourceforge and freshmeat.

>>when i bought this pc i didnt even get a win xp operating system cd like i did with past computers, they want you to buy another are they nuts? if i paid FOR the os i want the disc of that os its only fair and logical.<<

The OEM version of Windows that ships with PCs is supposedly "discounted", and you cannot legally install it on any other machine. In the case of XP, it actually tracks the hardware, and if you change too much, it refuses to load... and MS generally will not give you another key for an OEM version. Their stance is that for you to legally move it from one PC to another (never mind that the first PC is now a pile of ashes) you must buy the "full" (priced) version, at close to twice the cost.

In this wonderful world of IP that we live in now, it doesn't matter a bit how many hundreds of dollars you spent for the software, you don't "own" anything.. you're paying to have MS tolerate your use of their software on very limited terms.

>>this is the same as the vcr VS. betamax situation in the past. betamax was a superior system quality wise but the vhs people convinced the public that there was "just something wrong with betamax its too different etc" and crushed the product and consumed the market.<<

Actually, you may have that sort of backwards. Betamax was the first VCR standard, and dominated the industry for a time. It was arguably superior, but there are still heated arguments about that, and the difference, if any, wasn't something that most people could see.

But it was a proprietary Sony standard, and licensed by them. Sony loves proprietary standards, see "memory sticks", "minidisks", etc. Even some of their earlier CD burners defaulted to a Sony proprietary format.

So, a consortium of other electronics manufacturers (I think JVC was the prime motivator) came up with the VHS format as an alternative that, being a lot more open, also had the potential to make VCR tapes a lot less expensive. So, there was a war in the marketplace, stores and rentals were divided for awhile between the standards, but the public "voted" with their dollars, mostly on the basis of price and availability of equipment.

Ironically, there's a legal movement afoot right now to revoke the judicial "Betamax" decisiion that established your right to copy broadcast programs for your own use. The entertainment industry wants to go back to total control. They'll let you time-shift what you want to watch, and even make crippled copies- so long as you pay for the privilege.

I don´t think there´s too much need to complain to people who make IE specific sites. If I´m in the mood and it´s a commercial site I might inform them that I wanted to have buisiness with them but they forced me to have it with a competitor. It´s amazing that some of those companies think people might come back after they learned that a site doesn´t work with their browser.
I´m a big fan of Firefox and Mozilla too. They´re really good out of the box. With a couple of extensions they´re just great.

In order to install Suse, Firebox etc.. and all the extensions you mention, do you need to know how to use vi (is that the editor ?) ??

A few years ago, I had a week long intro to Unix.
It seemed to me I had been taken back in time, to the 70's when I had my first courses on computing, trying to program in machine language.... <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Is it still necessary or has some progress been made since... ?

Much progress has been made since. Out of the box, almost any distribution (RedHat, Suse, etc), will give you a GUI install program. You still have to know what you're doing, but you shouldn't have to edit any config files for the install.

After the install, both KDE and Gnome offer GUI system administration tools. Can't say too much about them because I don't use them.

Someone earlier recommended Knoppix for those who'd like to try Linux without installing. I agree. It's excellent. Just download the image, make a CD of it and boot! Now you have a very capable linux machine without installing anything. Full GUI environment, good selection of applications, etc.

Knoppix is part of my geek EDC. You can do all sorts of cool stuff with just a Knoppix CD and a USB drive.

Get Knoppix here.

Suse has a good GUI for the installation and a pretty good hardware detection. When you use the default settings it provides a running system. The tools for fine tuning are easy to use. The entire configuration can be done with the configuration tools. Modern machines have enough memory to use KDE which provides several editors for editing the configuration files if you like. My installation on the 486 required the use of vi (which is an editor) as the machine doesn´t have enough RAM for KDE.
Firefox comes with an installer. For Windows it´s just start the installer and decide where you want it. For Linux it has to be unpacked and then started. It´s no real hassle. 15 min for getting it running is rather pesimistic. The extensions can be downloaded via the menu Tools->Extensions. You have the choice to install immediately or download and install via File->Open File. I usually do the latter as I like to have the files for later installation and to save bandwith (I distribute the extensions to several machines).

I've just had a thought.

Backing up all our essential information on CD takes various forms, with various programs, exel, word, TIFF, jpeg scans etc.

How about a copy of knoppix/ mandrake move/ damn small linux on one CD,with all that essential information in whatever format on another CD. Then you would essentially have your operating system with you all the time and not be dependant on whatever system you find which may not be able to read your file.

This is from someone whose only exposure with linux is Mac OS X. I have ordered the knoppix cd and will test it on my Windoze machine soon.

Just a thought.
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If I recall correctly, I think Knoppix et al do NOT want you to eject the CD while the OS is running... which sort of seems like a reasonable restriction. If that's the case, it would have to be a system with two optical drives, or you'd have to copy one to the HD first, or something... or, if they have a DVD drive, you could easily have it all on one disk.

The way flash-RAM prices are plummeting, though, I'd bet on the future of thumb/pen drives instead. The largest I see around now are 1GB, but that's nearly the contents of 2 CDs, and they're getting more capacious and cheaper all the time.

This approach has a few drawbacks. As Presumed_Lost stated you need to leave the CD in the drive (the programs runs from there). You also need to able to boot from the CD drive. That may not be a problem at your home but some admins are not going to allow that on their machines.
If you just need access to the information a portable format like HTML,XML or PDF may be better. There are readers for most operating systems.
BTW:
The Knoppix CD can be legally remastered to contain the OS, a few programs and your data. You may have to ditch some of the programs on the CD to make room for your data (you don´t need the cool games for your purpose, do you?) but it should be feasible.

Well,
scratch that idea then...... <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
I guess storing everything in PDF would be easier....

Can't wait for the Knoppix CD to arrive....
Thanks to all who have piqued my interest in Linux....
Enough of Microshaft...... <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Well, all the software is in, but for reasons unknown, neither the US ROBOTICS software nor the Win98se software can detect my US Robotics V92 Performance Pro Modem.

The modem is the same one that was in there before the disk drive hit the dirt, and I am having a bird trying to figure out what happened where and why. I followed the troubleshooting guide book that came with the modem, and also the troubleshooting guide in the "read me" files software. The "My Computer" selection does not operate the way they have it listed, and I haven't been able to find any IRQ conflicts in the System Files. Win98se does not have a driver for the new V92 format, and loading a V90 format (Which would have operated the modem.) did not help at all. I remember the sequence dance I had to do when I installed my Zoom V92 modem in my secondary computer which required loading the software first and then installing the modem, but even that did not work for my US Robotics modem installation.

I don't believe it is a result of the dual installation as I loaded Win98se and all its related software first, and the modem was not detected. I then loaded Suse Linux hoping it would find the modem, and it did not. Something ain't happening in that electronic mass (mess?).

Funny thing is I disconnected my small 3 Gig hard drive while formatting the new 120 Gig into two 60 Gig virtual drives, and when I reattached the 3 Gig unit prior to loading software it came up as drive "D" with 60 Gig as drive "C" and 60 Gig as drive "E". When I started to reload Win98se, it wanted to default load on drive "D", the 3 Gig drive. I specified drive "C" for Win98se as well as all its programs, and I let Suse Linux use its own default settings.

I'm going to have to call US Robotics and see what, if anything I have missed. In the meantime, if anyone on board has any helpful ideas, I would appreciate the input.

Until I get the primary computer up and running right, I am going to have to stay away from chat rooms except for resolution of my computer problems, so please forgive me if I do not answer PM's or posts which are unrelated to fixing the computer.

Thanks a bunch!

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />