There have been several recent threads about lightweight stove setups. I have contributed my two cents to this issue here and there, so let me throw in a few pennies more.

Using the earlier discussions as an excuse to waste an otherwise gorgeous evening (68 degrees (F), no wind, no ?Sopranos?), I decided to do a little test. Armed with same fallible and rigorously un-scientific methods used to test fuel economy (that is, your mileage may vary?.) and three common, low-tech, inexpensive, stove setups, I held the First Annual??

Cliff?s Duel-of-the-Standard-Issue-Stoves.

Here?s the lineup: Stove set-up ONE was an Esbit Stove (one Esbit fuel tab) with the large pot from a West German Army mess kit. Stove setup TWO was a US canteen cup and a Natick stove/stand (one Esbit fuel tab). Stove setup THREE was a Trangia stove (full of alcohol fuel) and the pot and surrounding windscreen from my Swedish Army mess kit. The pots on stove ONE and THREE each had 1 litre of water, and stove TWO had .75 litre of water. (It won?t hold any more. Sorry.). Outside conditions were as I stated earlier.

Yes, I know ? no mods to anything. I wanted to see how these set-ups worked AS DESIGNED.

And, they?re off: I applied a light to each.

Stove Setup ONE: The Esbit tab burned for 12 minutes, and heated the water to the point that little bubbles appeared on the bottom and part of the sides of the pot. But nowhere close to boiling. No steam evident. If you are only looking to heat water for coffee, or to heat your rations, it?ll do. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Stove Setup TWO: The Esbit tab burned for 12 minutes, and heated the water to almost the boiling point. And I mean almost. Steam rising. For a one-man operation to heat water for coffee, or cleaning, or to heat rations, not a bad rig. <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Stove Setup THREE: The Trangia Stove worked as advertised, and in 12 minutes the water was in a hard, rolling boil. Lots of steam evident. Say no more. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Observations/conclusions:

The Esbit MUST have a windscreen to be effective. Even on a night with no wind.

With a top, the Canteen Cup will bring water to a rolling boil. I use a second canteen cup (sans handle) for this. Turn it upside down on the first cup. (for storage, it nests inside the first cup.)

I left the Trangia burner to burn on, and it ran out of fuel 36 minutes after the test started. That would be 4 boils of water from one fuel load.

Overall, the West German mess kit is a better design than the Swedish. The middle pan that nests inside has come in handy many times. But the Swedish kit has that windscreen as a part of the issue kit, and the Trangia stove, too. Both German and Swedish kits would be great base for building an emergency kit. Frenchy here has already done something similar with a French mess kit.

I would love to make a kit setup combining the West German kit with a slip-on windscreen and the Trangia Stove. Anybody here do metalwork? Tom?? <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

What does this have to do with being equipped to survive? Simple - survival is not just a lost-in-the-back-woods thing. More than likely, our emergencies will be as a result of an earthquake, a hurricane, or blizzard. The ability to heat/boil water will be a high priority. (I remember our family?s time after Hurricane Betsy, and my parents having to boiling water to drink. Or, ask someone from Florida?) Yes, a Coleman Stove and several gallon pots would do nicely, but they are kind of tough to carry under the seat of your car, or in a pocket of a day pack.

So that?s my say. Hope this helps.

?..CLIFF

Cliff:

Thanks for sharing what sounds like a very entertaining evening.

Most lightweight backpackers who use alcohol stoves (Trangias included) make their own windscreens out of heavy weight turkey roasting pans or roof flashing aluminum. All it takes is scissors and a hole punch.

These windscreens are designed as open cylinders so you can store them inside your cookpot.

Can you post a link to the West German mess kit? I've looked for them before, but had no luck. I'd like to see what you're talking about.

Thanks again,

Bear

It's not really a fair test if the alcohol stove has a bigger tank. If you pour the weight of an Esbit tab of alcohol in the stove, how does it compare?

Cliff,

Good info! The only surprise to me was that the Natick rig worked well.

Windscreen 101: KISS. Look at a well-used (or new, if you must) MSR XGK windscreen. You can do this...

1. Buy the largest disposable aluminum liner pan you can find - maybe two if you're not certain what your working perimeter will be. Use scissors to free a windscreen from the pan - or pans, as the case may be. If you have a seam(s), flat fell them and staple - it will require a long reach stapler and if you don't have one, visit your local Kinko's or equivalent. A little scrunching under the stapler arm to reach the seam won't hurt anything. Look for a fairly close fit to the pan/stove combo - a 1/2" gap all around is great; try to keep it between 1/2 and 1 inch (12mm - 25mm). Slit/slot as required for a handle protrusion. Provide combustion air inlet(s) at or near the bottom edge - hole punch, triangular cutout, whatever. Some folks just leave the ends gapped on the "downwind" side some variable amount instead of fastening the ends together, but I think they have less fickle winds to contend with than where I go AND IMHO the screen is not as durable when there are "loose ends" to pack up - YMMV. You do not need a large net free are for combustion air and it's trivial to add area (bend/cut in the field). This is simple, cheap, very effective, easy to stow (preferably roll it up - folding eventually fatigues the foil on the crease lines) To deploy, unroll enough to stick both hands thru the loop and make a dog-paddling motion with lower arms parallel to your thorax - voila!

2. Buy a roll of light-gauge aluminum flashing. Cut a piece to size plus an extra 1/2" - 1". Bend a tab on both ends, each of which is 1/2 of your extra perimeter length. I snip or radius the corners first - btw, scissors are OK on this stuff, too. One tab bends IN, one OUT, and they should be bent on an expedient brake - steel ruler, sharp counter top, whatever lies at hand. put about a 175 degree bend in each (OK - flat, then prise up the edges a bit). This is how you fasten and unfasten the ends together - the joint is like this: Left hand up. fingers bent. Right hand down, fingers bent. Interlock fingers. That's the seam. See #1, above, to add handle slots, air intakes, etc. Don't get too fancy. This really should be rolled to be stowed - around a 1 liter water or fuel bottle works great, but any old way will do.

Repeat #2 ~ 20 times for your 20 closest friends to use up the remainder of the roll of flashing...

Having used both, my preference, btw, is the soft screen in #1 - MSR had a good idea and it works great.

Now, if you want a rigid conformal windscreen that nests around your utinsel, that's not hard to do, either, but I can not think of many significant advantages to that UNLESS your windscreen must also serve as your pot support. But in that case, why not make a simple folding trivet from heavy guage wire? Then you can use that screen from #1... See the Lodge cast iron lid trivet for the general idea - a pot support would have longer legs and the peened rivet joint is not the only way to fasten the two pieces together into a hinge.

Does that help spur your creative juices?

Now I get to, er, um, I mean I HAVE TO go out in the woods by myself and tend a tiny little fire all night, so I won't be able to reply until tomorrow. <sigh> It's a tough chore, but SOMEONE must do it...

Regards,

Tom

Not an issue. I used as my test time the point the Esbit tabs expired - about 12 minutes, give or take a few seconds. That was when I did my sampling of the water temp. in all three vessels.

How many Esbit tabs to get the West German pot to a soft boil without a windscreen? In my experience, 2.5 to 3. And about 20+ minutes. WIth a windscreen: 1.5, and about 15 minutes.

I'll stick with the Cliff's Canteen Cup Rig, or the Trangia.

.....CLIFF

<Entertaining evening>? Yes, I know how to live, don't I? You should read my riveting review of watching different grasses grow over at Equipped to Garden. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The West German Kit here.
Swedish one here. My kit is in a lot better shape than this one, though.

Tom, I knew you'd come through. Creative juices flowing. (A rather revolting mental image, IMAO <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

I have an MSR windscreen. (For my MSR Stove, which I use.... almost never.) I do use it sometimes with the Esbit / German Mess Kit. I've had several MSR windscreens, actually. I've had rather bad luck keeping them around. They seem to come to life and run away when I'm not looking. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I like the idea of making a windscreen that will fit round the outside pot when not in use. I can keep that handy. And use the Esbit as the stove/potstand. How thick a steel/amuminum sheet will I need for a windscreen like that? Don't want it too.... bendy. (an engineering term if I ever heard one!) And what should I use for fasteners at the seam? I have seen several of these rivet kits at Lowe's and Home Depot - would they work?

Thanks for the ideas. All the best....

.....CLIFF

Cliff,

Er, I wrote "creative", not "procreative"...

Back to the windscreen. If you are thinking of blind rivets like Pop rivets, they would stand proud of the surface quite a bit - outside surface most likely, since you want this conformal to the pot. Tiny little eyelets like miniature grommets - possibly found in your wife's sewing junk box - could be set like cold rivets and even hammered flatter, and there are dozens of other improvised methods that could work OK.. Next time you're on a jobsite, ask the HVAC sub / sheetmetal sub for a scrap of whatever will work for you - assume that 16 ga is too heavy to mess with and that 28 ga is too light (store bought DiY flashing is usually 28 ga more or less). They might even seam it for you if you ask nicely... a sheetmetal shop could roll a locking seam for you in a few seconds - which gives me an idea.

What is the perimeter of the kit you want this to work with? I have a cheap and easy idea that may get close to what you're after: Use one of the standard diameter steel stove pipes (e.g. 6" diameter). A little careful repousse work with a cut-off section of stovepipe might do nicely or there are other methods to convince a bit of sheet metal to assume the shape you want. I could go look at the links you posted and guess, but I'm too laz... I mean tired.

I've had an MSR XGK for an embarassingly long time and now that I stop to think about it, I have never used anything other than a particular 2 liter pot with it, which is a close fit to the windscreen - it can't very readily blow away. The original wind screen not only soldiers on, it does daily duty in my ready pack (sorta like a mini-BoB) along with an Esbit stove. Since I'm rarely on glaciers or vast snowfields these days, the XGK doesn't get a workout very often anymore... what I'm getting at is that a custom-sized soft aluminum windscreen still might work well... and I should make one that's the right size for the pot in my ready kit and put the MSR screen back with the XGK.

Tom

Cliff,
Was the Trangia the “standard model” or the solo model? I’m not sure that there is any difference between the two elements. I’ve never actually seen them, but have heard enough positive stuff about them to roll the dice and play Internet roulette. I’ve been considering getting the smaller solo model for when I’m traveling, well… solo.

Where did you find the German mess tin? You wouldn’t have a US source for them, would you?

Thanks,
Biscuits

i think he ment the millitairy version:


trying to get on of these my self, but i can't find the complete kit, just the windscreen, stove and bottle, but not the cooking pot and stuff.