If you could only carry ONE or the other for urban/suburban EDC, which would you carry and why? For the sake of this discussion lets assume that you do not have a job or other daily activity which specifically requires either one and that their are no laws prohibitting either one within a resonable size (say under 5" blade). This is strictly from an EDC survival prospective and no you can't carry both! <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks in advance for the knowledgable opinions and acompanying explanations.

i proberbly would go a light weight multitool, like the new charge series, which i do NOT own. A knife comes in very handy, but sometimes i just want more. A multitool suits my needs beter for normall everyday use, but the knife and saw on it also are very usefull tools in a survival situation.

I own a swisstool at the moment, but that things is a bit to heavy for EDC, a victorionox huntmen is what i carry at the moment as edc, not to big, not to heavy, has most things i need and is reasonable PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. proof. I dont carry a seperate knife, due to the law. I do carry a folder wenn i work, i like to have the heavy artillerie wenn i have to take down a serious load of cardboard !

You might want to check a thread from 8/12, Knife or Multi Tool in the bush.

For urban/suburban edc, as much as I hate to say it; I'd choose a Leatherman Pulse. There's just too much sheer utility offered in that compact package to pass on. I couldn't recommend the new Leatherman tools until I have the opp to personally check them out ...

M

but edc is more urban and wilderness is, well pretty wilderness, so i requires a diffrent approch.

Butthat threath does have things in common.

Brian,

I carry a Wave everyday in the office, so that would be my choice. It looks less threatening than a regular knife, and has more uses than a knife. That would mean I'd have to leave my EDC folder at home. Decisions, decisions...

No question!

A quality folder or fix blade concealed.

IMHO a multitool is not a survival tool but a convenience item.

I own several multitools and use them often enough but for survival purposes a decent knife is unequaled in utility.

Don't forget you cant fend off or deter an attacker with a pair of pliers.

Personal protection is a matter of EDC and survival in my opinion and should not be overlooked.

Flip

My first multitool was a Shrade. I had a 'social encounter' with a Filipino gangmember who tried to emphasise his negotiations with a butterfly knife. I produced my Shrade and emulated one of the basic openings followed up with a sharp rap across the bridge of his nose. Salamat Shrade <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I would say for urban EDC and you can only have one, for sure go with the multi-tool. Much less threating to the masses at work and out in public, a cop is very unlikely to hassle you for it. Besides, in a urban setting your more likely going to have to tighten up engine components and open boxes then you are going to have to scale a fish or make a lean to ^_^.

Somebody mentioned the protective abilities of a knife as opposed to a multi-tool and thats true, a multi-tool doesn't offer much in that way. Personally I carry a colapsable steel baton and dog replent pepper spray. The baton is a heavy hitter but I think is better than a knife for conflict. A knife forces you to really injure a person with the distinct possibility of death, this "all the way" nature of a blade can make you hesitate or possibly get you in trouble afterward (would not be the first time someone was accused of over agressive defence, not to say those laws are flawed, just saying they do exist). A baton however can cause grevious damage but the possibility of death is greatly reduced (provided you don't strike to the head). Police often use their batons to strike the knee caps and shins of hostiles, this immoblizes (not to mention really hurts!) without the danger of killing a guy. Just my 2 cents.

If I need to pull a knife I intend to do major harm or it doesn't get pulled.

While pepper and a baton are good defensive weapons its much harder to conceal a baton and a " large" can of pepper spray than a folder. Because of its convenience of carry i am not tempted to leave it at home either. Either way a mulitool doesn't enter my mind for one item EDC.
A multitool of course its better than nothing but a stick is probably better in the self defense dept.

For what its worth.

Flip

I´d choose the multitool because it has a wider range of tools and uses. The main blade of the tool has to lock. Weapons are not a top priority in my EDC.

In my urban location, would have to go with the multi tool, though I would feel funny not carrying a pocket knife.
My best friend's wife once wrote on the calendar in red ink when she asked me for my knife, and I didn't have one on my person. <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
It was rather unusual, and I don't think it has happened again- <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Read this by Don Rearic (search down the page for A Forgotten Art, Plier-Ryu-Jutsu<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ...the title is a joke, but not the rest.)

Hum, both the baton and pepper spray (small can) take up no room, go on the belt and under the [censored] so Im not sure what your qualm is with concealability. Anyway, Im talking about more of the legal and moral obligations of using a knife in a self defence situation. This is mostly academic really since any real mugger or what have you would probably have a gun and attack you from behind. The old batman comic hold up where the thug stands five feet away menacing a switchblade doesn't really happen ^_^

You're obviously not familiar with maiming laws. In most states, you'll do more time for crippling the bad guy than for killing him, and crippling is VERY easy to do, even unintentionally, when you start swinging a stick at someones knees. Even in Anti-gun Illinois, crippling with blunt trauma weapons carries a harsher sentence than point-blank with a 12-guage.

Troy

Nic:

Gotta be careful how you spell "shirt" around here. Leave off the "r"?

My moral obligation is to me continuing to breath, period.

You want to spice up an attackers lunch with pepper or hope you were a good ball player with the baton be my guest. My attacker is breathing through several new holes I cut in him. Batons are heavy and bulky and require training and pepper spray in anything but a large can useless, think bear spray <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

If i had a concealed carry permit he'd be breathing though even bigger holes and develop the worlds fastest lead alergy.

Flip

Canadian, remember?

Goatrider: heh, whoops

Flipper: Situations aren't always cut and dry. If you feel morally able yourself, good for you. Im not saying "what about the poor attacker who thought he'd get an easy score!" Im saying some people do not wish to do others harm and may tragically hesitate. Myself, if someone came at me with lethal or harmfull intentions, its open season. Other ocassions however may merit less of a reaction. how bout you get back to your car in the parking lot to find someone leaning in to grab your stereo? Is it worth knifing him in the back maybe causing death, maybe crippling him? Is it better to just bash out the back of his knee causing untold pain and possibly destroying that knee for life? Maybe it would just be better to let him take the stereo, but what message does that send? Your willing to be victimized, we live in a society that is crippled with apathy and will not protect itself? How bout you see a fight between two guys, do you jump in with your knife? Do nothing? Call the cops even though you don't know anything about the situation? Do I know the right answear? No. Im just saying things need to be thought through more than "I'd kill the guy!". Iif you don't think things through, you should not carry weapons.

Nic,

Of course situations need to be thought through. Like I said the blade gets pulled or not depending on situation.

Lets be serious a good SAK can do most utility jobs a folder can do just fine.

Many people carry both but the folder is in easy reach and has a thumb stud one hand opening and locks in place for a reason <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> and it ain't for opening boxes.

Flip

I would carry my Leatherman Charge, which I do. Best multi-tool yet. Having a 154cm one handed opening blade and a pocket clip means it is about as close to one of my Benchmades as a multi-tool could get.

Remember that some of us live outside the states. Even drawing a knife in an altercation is a criminal offence, even if faced with a gun. Self defence with a weapon is illegal. Note that carrying the baton at all is illegal and I think the pepper spray may be as well.

Dave,

Did you even read what you wrote?

You are afraid of jail for pulling a knife when a guy pulls a gun and is about to kill you. Hmmmmm?

If a guy pulls a knife on you is it ok to pull one on him then?

Makes you think don't it?

Flip

yes i did read what i wrote. The laws here (UK) are mad. If you are stopped and searched by the police and carrying a knife that you do not have good reason to carry then you will be prosecuted. Self defence is specifically NOT allowed as good reason. If found to be carrying a weapon on the streets and you claim its for self defence then you will be found guilty of possession of an offensive weapon. UK law does not allow carrying of weapons for self defence. That doesnt even include the ones that possession of is illegal full stop - ballisongs, autos, gravity knives, telescoping batons, kubotan etc. It may be mad but those are the laws. The only thing you have a right to carry without having to justify it to the authorities is a knife with a sub 3" non locking blade. Even then there are places such as schools where carrying that is an offence. And if you used it in defence you would almost certainly be prosecuted, hell even pulling it out of your pocket in that circumstance is an offence.

The chances of you meeting someone in the uk with a firearm on the streets isnt high though so possibly a bit of an exageration. There was a case earlier this year when an old lady in her 80's was burgled by armed intruders, she chased them out of her house with a katana. She got away with it being old. A young man may (up to the courts) have been found guilty. A few years ago a farmer shot a burgler inside his home with a shotgun and was tried and sent to prison for the killing. Even although one of his neighbours had been killed during a burglary.

I realise that lots of people carry a knife (including me) and that in extremis could use it as a weapon to defend themselves. My post was just meant as a reminder to be careful and not fall foul of the law and get arrested and prosecuted for being prepared. If stopped by the police in the UK DO NOT tell them your knife is for self defence (even if it is!) since that in itself is a crime. Just train yourself to come out with a more reasonable excuse. (useful advice for travellers to our island)

So what would be a good excuse in the UK, if you're carrying for example Doug's RSK1 in the city, say walking from home to the pub?

Dave,

In a slightly different vein: Suppose the victim happens to have an umberella or urban walking stick (cane) in hand and thrashes the attacker a bit with that "legitimate" object. Do you have any indication what action, if any, the government may/has taken to punish the victim for defending himself? I'm very interested in hearing a knowledgeable reply from you or any others in the UK. I am not interested in any sort of debate of whatever the current situation may be.

Before any of my fellow citizens jumps on this - that sort of defensive reflex can be charged as "assault" in most US municipalities. In many municipalities the police will automatically do that and let the lawyers and judges sort the truth out - at your expense and time, of course. That's the sad truth, not an indictment of police (although perhaps it is of some attorneys).

TIA,

Tom

locking knife's are also illegal there....

The laws are a bit strange in the UK. Some weapons are illegal, telescoping batons, autos, gravity knives, ballisong, shuriken, and a few others. They are illegal to carry, buy, sell, lend, import, export etc. If you already have one at home thats actually ok it just cant ever leave there!

A sub 3" non locking folder you can carry without an excuse. If the police ask for one you just tell them its a sub 3" non locking folder and you dont need one. However you still cant carry one of those in a school or court or airport. The only other exceptions are when the knife is part of your national dress (Scotsmans Dirk and Sgian Dubh) or religion (Sikhs Kirpan).

Everything else you can carry as long as you have a reasonable excuse (self-defence doesnt count though). Whether the excuse is reasonable or not is up to the courts. So if you need a knife at work and feel a locking blade is safer then you could carry one reasonably at work and to and from work. The police might object to you going home via the pub though. I've carried a katana (in a bag) to a dojo - no problem there. Knives for sailing, climbing, diving, woodcraft etc. You just have to be able to justify it. I've stood and talked to a policeman and he could see I was carrying a diving knife, I was also carrying all the other stuff though so he said nothing. Note that in a city a knife will be frowned upon but you probably could take a billhook into a countryside pub for lunch and no one would bother. Its open to loads of interpretation. Technically the Leatherman wave is illegal for EDC in the UK but unless you are causing trouble you would probably just have to say its a useful tool and you would get away with it.

As to the specific question of carrying Dougs knife to the pub from home I cant think of any reasonable excuse off hand. Work to pub and had forgotten about it as its at the bottom of a pack perhaps but from home no.

Waving any blade or any other weapon is an offence in itself. And using any object is use of an offensive weapon if carried for that purpose. So baton bad walking stick ok. There is also some leeway so using a stick against person = assault, against 8 people with knives probably ok but you will be charged - its up to the court to then let you off with it.

The other thing is how likely are you to be stopped. If you look reasonable and dont cause trouble the police are unlikely to search you in the first place. If you look like a thug and act in a threatening way you could be searched and I'm affraid Doug's lovely locking knife would be removed.

There is loads more and better info available on the British Blades Forums including several serving policemen who would be willing to answer any questions if you wanted to visit the UK. Dont know how to put up a link but I have seen Chris there so he may be able to. please?

Quote: In a slightly different vein: Suppose the victim happens to have an umberella or urban walking stick (cane) in hand and thrashes the attacker a bit with that "legitimate" object. Do you have any indication what action, if any, the government may/has taken to punish the victim for defending himself? I'm very interested in hearing a knowledgeable reply from you or any others in the UK. I am not interested in any sort of debate of whatever the current situation may be.


Depends on the situation. Relative no of attackers, relative ages etc etc. I do know of one case where 2 old men (one ex-SAS the other RAF Regiment) were attcked by 6 youths who tried to rob them. They beat them with their walking sticks (both walked with a limp) so badly that the thugs pressed for the police to charge the old men with assault. The police let the old men go and charged the youths.

Its all relative. If someone attacked you and you used any implement at all to beat them off. You were both relatively fit males, he was injured by you at all and you were unscathed. Then you will almost certainly be charged with assault. (has happened). If two guys with knives attack you and you take a stab wound first then you would be entitled to a lot more leeway. Friend of mine took a stab wound and then retaliated,(with a baton taken off of one of his attackers) the least injured of the 4 attackers had his jaw wired together and a couple of broken ribs. The attackers were charged with assault and friend wasnt. Its open to the interpretation of the police or whichever judge and jury hear your case basically.

UK law does not allow use of any objects legitamately by default. If you pick up an object and hit someone with it then you have used an offensive weapon (UK law does not recognise the existance of defensive weapons - they are all offensive).

www.britishblades.com

there is a law forum moderated by a serving policeman and you can ask specific questions. One of the moderators is a lawyer as well.

a quick summary of the uk is that the law has been designed to be open ended. If you have a need to carry something and are responsible then you can. If you dont need to or cant be trusted you cant. and if you attack someone you can be arrested whether or not the weapon is on a list. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Only problem is that self-defence and emergency prepardness are not acceptable as reasons <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I think I know where I am NEVER going to live! Heck I don't even want to visit the U.K. now.

Dear British friend,
"Oh how the mighty have fallen..." a quote from the Bible and my feelings exactly. This in a country that 60 years ago repulsed the mighty Nazi hordes! I did not know the terrible "state" of affairs when it came to self defence in Britain!!!
Arizona is an "open carry" state here in the US. That means you can carry a gun/knife on you as long as it is within open sight (there are of course restrictions upon this in government buildings/bars/ etc.)
I had thought I wanted to visit the UK, but no longer!!!

Er, perhaps Dave is a Brit living in Scotland? Ah well, a citizen of the UK in any event...

Thank you. That's about what I expected to hear. It does sound as if some local police / courts take some leeway in deciding who to charge with a crime, which is not as bad as I thought. Still, not an encouraging situation.

Tom

I stand corrected, Dear Scottish friend.
Is there any movement at all, Dave, to see these laws reversed?? Or is it like here in the US, where the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. are in the vast majority?

Dave750gixer:

I asked one of our U.K. female participants this question, and I don't remember if she answered it completely, so I will put it to you.

If someone breaks into your house and sets about raping your wife or daughter, or starts beating or stabbing you, what are you supposed to do?

If the your Government says you have to stand there and take it, maybe it is time to vote the Govenment out and send those type of people to that warehouse in Nuremburg with a whole new set of gallows.

Bountyhunter

Brit living in Scotland? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Full name of the country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. UK or GB for short. Made up of England, Wales, Scotland and Northen Ireland (or Ulster) which are seperate countries. By definition all Scots are also Brits.

The PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. are definately in the majority. Especially in the cities. In the countryside areas openly carrying a knife is accepted as entirely reasonable. As is ownership of firearms for hunting/ vermin control. In the cities no one understands why anyone should have any knife and cannot see why hunting and all other traditional pursuits should not be stamped out. More people live in cities therefore more votes so no way on Earth are these laws going to be relaxed.

there is a large confusion in the law and lots of grey areas. If someone was attachked then I would use reasonable force to protect them. Its the definition of reasonable that is the problem. If someone was mugged and I shot the perpetrator then that would be murder. If on the other hand someone was being raped at knifepoint and I sneaked up behind them with a baseball bat and smacked them with it that would probably be justified. There would be no charges probably even if I killed them. If however i then repeatedly struck the attacker it would be back to an assault or attempted murder charge for me. People in the UK have used weapons to protect themselves and it been ok under the law on many occasions it just has to be an appropriate level of action. The problem is that this is subjective and open to the opinion of whichever judge hears your case. (not saying I agree with this just trying to say what the law is)

In the UK there have been several cases of people suffereing domestic violence snapping and stabbing their partner multiple times and beeing freed as what they did was seen as "reasonable" in the circumstances. If someone was being raped and snatched up a kitchen knife and killed there attacker then it would be investigated to see whether the woman should be charged but she almost certainly would not be (has happened)

one thing I should point out though is that the amount of gun crime in the uk is very vey small. The chances of you being shot unless you yourself are part of the drug gang culture or a terrorist is vanishingly small and you really would not need to carry a knife or gun to protect yourself against it. And I currently live in Mosside in Manchester (England) which is the gun crime capitol of the UK!

Dave750gixer:

Sounds worse and more complicated than New York, USA.

I remember reading about an incident that supposedly happened in Italy. A man came home to find another man having sex with his wife. He got a rifle and shot both of them, only wounding them. He was sentenced for shooting them both and not killing them. If he had shot and killed them both, he would probably would have been set free for behavior as a "Matter of Honor".

I do understand he was extremely sporting about it as he shot the man "on the rise".

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dave750gixer:

Actually there is one way and that would entail another invasion of England by a warring faction.

I can tell you that this time around, the American citizenery would not lend handguns and rifles as willingly to the United Kingdom.

Bountyhunter

Hmmm. Well, we've only had a bit over 200 years to develop all those sorts of distinctions, so I guess my assumptions were showing. Y'all have a big head start on us. Now, if we could just keep those daft Iowegians off our roads in Illinois... although the ones who learned to drive in Illinois but are currently living in Iowa yet working in Illinois... ...never mind, it's too complicated...

...and your Bio says Scotland but you're living in England, so - wait! I've got it! Don't drive in Illinois, OK? You folks drive on the wrong side of the road. Probably had Iowa driving instructors imported to the UK of GB. There, I've got it all sorted out now.

...and if you had ever met an American who intensely feels he's a "Scot" by virtue of ancestry, you would have REALLY understand my initial confusion!

TiC

Tom

I just got caught back up on this thread, and it's hard to believe that the "good and common" people everywhere are letting themselves get so backed into a corner like this. Pretty soon, teeth and dentures will be regulated as concealed weapons. It's a sickening thought, and I hope I'm never put in a situation where I can't go down with my 1911 smoking in my hand... but it seems more likely every day... pitiful <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Dave's right in what he is saying, God forbid that a mere victim of serious crime would even think about infringing on a decent upstanding criminals human rights by making them stop. IMHO the PC brigade in this country have too much influence on politics as a whole. I'm in favour of the open carry policy as long as its used sensibly as has been shown in example above. I'm also in favour of arming the police but thats a whole different can of worms.

Johno

FWIW a Scot living in Scotland. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just wondering, can you guys carry a Multi-tool in the UK? Like a Leatherman Wave?

Just finished reading this thread , all 42 views.
Apart from the very different cultural aspects between the UK and the US, the precieved threat (real or imaginary) is also entirely different. Whilst I disagree with Uk law on carrying knives, I could not honestly justify to myself the need to carry one in the name of self defence.
I live and work in Leith, the docks area of Edinburgh, a working class, but proud area of the city. Most trouble is sorted by fists. It is a rare and headline grabbing event if there is a stabbing. There is no pride associated with, or street cred gained within the community by carrying a weapon. I would be a foolish man to brag about or pull a weapon out in anger - I would be asking for more trouble than I could ever dream of dealing with.
To be truthfull I'd be better off learning a martial art.
I say this in relation to my community and city, and cannot comment on other areas.
To gain a greater insight to the real trouble makers, I would recommend the link below - humourous but true.

http://glasgowsurvival.co.uk/

{Definition - NED = non-educated delinquent}

Oh... I carry a leatherman squirt on me...

While I agree that political ineptitude and ignorance has lead to some unjust things, some of you should remember that in places like Canada and the UK the violent crime rate is disproportionably lower. Heck here in Canada we were all scandalized to have five murders committed in Toronto (Ontario’s biggest city) last year. While I wholeheartedly defend the peoples right to defend themselves, you should realize that in some cases carrying a gun or what have you would do more to escalate the situation rather then calm it. If I lived in LA, Im sure I would apply for a concealed carry permit, but I live in Ontario and the worse thing I’ve ever seen was a guy getting beat up behind a bar and before I could help, two other guys jumped in and separated everyone involved. I suppose that what Im saying is that sometimes allowing people access to whatever weapons they want is like pouring gas on a smouldering cigarette on the road.

As a note on Second Amendment rights to arms as a means to keep the government in check I believe thats outdated. Not in the way you may be thinking when I say that but hear me out. If the government goes nuts (which it currently is actually) and you as a patriotic citizen goes out to fight for democracy, it won't matter if you have a full auto Gaili or a semi autoAR-15 in your hand, the military would send a bradley or striker on your butt and fry you. If your truly interested in the rights to arms for the purpose of keeping the government in check you should be more concerned with securing explosives, learning how to make improvised munitions and secure anti-material rifles like the Barret M8 because road side bombs and material destruction would be the only real way to keep the government off its toes. Am I condoning this kind of action? No. Im just saying that through a tactical standpoint, a gurrieal war or attrition would be the only way to attack a police state. Just something to think about.

I just read through this whole thread and it seems to me parts of it went a little bit off topic. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm willing to guess that 99.9% of us who carry some form of knife/tool will never need it for self-defense. I don't generally walk out of the house without something bladed in my pocket, but I think the prospect of using it to defend myself is pretty remote. (And besides, if I'm out in the middle of the night, I generally bring the dog and her growls clear sidewalks... <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Since this is the original anti-hype survival site, more likely scenarios for me are the unfortunate things that happen in cities. For anything more than a walk in the woods, I take a fully stocked pack, but around town, if it's not in my pocket or on my belt, it's not with me. So, I almost always carry a Leatherman, and more often than not, it's a Leatherman Juice.

I'm no expert on any of this, but here's my two cents:

1) Serrated blades make quick work of seatbelts and stuck clothing. I'm not worried about my own seatbelt, I'm thinking of someone else's here.
2) Screwdrivers can be your best friend if you're locked in somewhere
3) Pliers can be used to twist and snap metal. They can be used to pry things in places blades would snap.
4) Scissors and everything else are icing on the cake

I happen to think that the single most important always-carry-item in a city is a flashlight. Blackouts in the interiors or basements of very large office buildings really suck without some form of personal illumination. My experience is that most of those emergency lighting systems simply do not work.

“what Im saying is that sometimes allowing people access to whatever weapons they want is like pouring gas on a smouldering cigarette on the road.”

I am surprised to see that people in your part of Canada are so hotheaded. Most Canadians I have met are very pleasant and even-tempered, and I would have no problem having them carry a firearm around me.

“A a note on Second Amendment rights to arms as a means to keep the government in check I believe thats outdated.”

Well, fortunately you are a citizen of Canada and you don’t have to worry about all those crazy American ideas about freedom and how to keep it. Stay well north of 54’ 40” (is that the border?) and I’m sure you will be safe as houses.

By the way, I visited Toronto for 5 days in 1990. I’m ashamed to say that’s the only time I’ve ever been to Canada. What a great city with nice people. I hope to be back someday and see more of your beautiful country. I wanted to hunt there but I heard you now charge an extra $50.00 for me to bring in my rifle. I guess I'm perceived as something of a threat. Oh well, maybe I'll just hunt in Alaska. That should come as a relief to the powers that be. A pity though, really.

Regards, Vince

Canada has its share of crime and gangs etc.. But what makes the diference is they don't have "easy" access to assualt weapons which can be modified.

There are plenty of guns in Canada just mostly of the bolt rifle and shotgun variety, handguns are very strictly regulated and carry permits don't exist or needed for the most part.

The result of this is less violent gun crime and no AK 47's mowing down cops and school children.

flip

Thanks Flipper that is exactly what I've been getting it. Gun themselves aren't evil and not everyone that owns one is some sort of John Rambo nutter, the vast majority are decent people. The problem is when one of the nutters out there or one of the criminals or angry people with something to prove gets a hold of one, it gets ugly. Canadians are very protective of your country, and a lot of us own guns, my Grandpa has had a shotgun for years and I know several of my peers and their parents keep arms in house as well. This is not a issue of the will to protect yourself as I think you would find that quite evident in Canada, its a matter of responsibility. Take a shotgun, excellent home defence weapon, dependable, easy to maintain, a large spread pattern makes targeting in close quarters easy and shot does not penetrate through walls easily limiting risk. Now while a full auto M4 is cool it requires diligent cleaning to insure it is there when you need it, firing in full auto in the middle of the night is difficult and unless your a very disciplined individual (read: military trained) and burst fire even when panicked, your not likely to hit anything if your first or second shot misses. The added danger is that rifle munitions in say 5.56 or 7.62 can easily penetrate several walls and all those misses have to go somewhere so it puts your whole neighbourhood in danger, so its not a good home defence weapon. It would be overkill to use a automatic for hunting and while I wholeheartedly support accurate target shooting as a sport, fully auto weapons usually just get shown off by spraying down a clip at some cutouts or watermelons (not saying that’s not fun, just not much of a sport). About clip size, there are arguments both ways, 10 bullets as opposed to 15 are still very lethal from a crime point of view, but from a defence point if you need more than 10, you lost already.

In a risk to reward look at things, you stand to put people in a lot of danger proliferating assault weapons while not getting a lot of security in return. Do I want to ban guns? Hell no. Do I think responsibility should come before fun? Yeah.

I would like to add you guys are comparing two very different societies. Even though we speak the same language and share a long undefended border, there are two distinct cultures at work. Canada is far more like the European countries in it's outlook. We were the rebellious colonies, and you stuck with the mother country. I'm not totally up to date on some of the political associations, but Canada was/is a long time member of the British commonwealth (correct me on this if I'm wrong).

Basically what I'm saying is that I think your comparison overlooks far too many other variables than the availability of guns. The population difference alone creates very different societies, even between places in the states. Painting with that broad a brush would be like saying that we need to promote machete control in Central Africa. People will simply use whatever is at hand to create mayhem if they have a mind to. We managed to kill each other quite nicely for many thousand years without firearms. Stopping violence is much more a matter of changing society rather than simply removing the tools used for violence.

Our country developed with the aid of, and along with the firearm. It might be a stretch, but I think firearms could be the American version of the samurai sword, it's part of how we identify ourselves and our history. Therefore we have such virulent fights over control and possession of the gun. Taking the firearm away from the American, (basically, the goverment taking away any right without a well thought out valid reason), would be like taking the tea from the British, or the Machete from the jungle inhabitants of Costa Rica.

Now, as to the ban and such here in the states. The assault weapon you speak of is not the full auto military version everyone thinks of, they are semi auto rifles not easily converted to fully automatic or burst. They were banned simply because of cosmetic features. Quite a lot of people use the civilian version of the M-16 style rifle for competitions or for small animal hunting, in most places these rifles in semi auto form became illegal, when any other semi automatic 5.56 rifle was still legal. Hunters liked the M-16/M-4 style rifles ability to use a short stock/short barrel because it is easier and lighter to carry when hunting, and their ability to accept many different kinds of sights and parts, which was taken away with the ban. The rifle itself is reliable, easy to use, and a good design.....there was no reason for it to be taken away other then it looked like a military rifle. There wasn't even many crimes commited with those style rifles,.22LR rifles kill way more people yearly then the civilian version of the M-16/M-4 ever did.

With the magazine part, they made companies change the capacities on their magazines which made them much more expensive and less reliable, without a real valid reason other then basically a magazine over 10 rounds looks evil. You see, it isn't the "we just want the 5 extra rounds to defend ourselfs, or we want the civilian version of the m-16/m-4 so we can play army", the reason is we had them before, they were banned unjustly, so we want them back. It is as much a case of our rights as it is the object.

Anyway, how did we get to talking about firearms (which seems to be a rough subject on this forum)? I thought this was basically about if a multi-tool is a valid replacement for the folding knife for EDC. <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Joblot, LMAO at the Burberry pleb site, its been sent to a good few of my mates. I reckon I, as well as a few other posters got a bit off track on this question. Personally I carry a freebie micra clone from a pallet of Hesco bastion on my key ring, a KISS knife in my jacket pocket and a Wave or Gerber on my belt. The multitool gets taken off my belt if I'm not at work and usually ends up in the glove box. If I'm working in the field I up the ante with either a Colt Commander or a Muela Mirage. Both liberally wrapped with paracord and tape (just to let everyone know that I have taken something from this site <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

Getting back with the original question, I find having a multitool far mor useful than a fixed blade for EDC. For the simple reason that it is far more versatile than a blade. At the end of the day you can do lots of things with a fixed blade but, you can do more with a multitool.

Johno

Back on topic <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> In town I EDC a Victorinox Camper SAK, a Leatherman micra (dont like the SAK's with scissors) and a 4" Needle nose Vise Grip (prefer it to the ergonomics of a multitool). Also in the UK Leatherman multitools are rediculously expensive. The micra and SAK are on my carrabiner key ring. If I had to choose only one it would be the SAK.

I happen to prefer the SAK as I use more of its tools on a regular basis and its much smaller in my pocket. Find that for suburban EDC I dont need a larger blade.

I currently EDC both.
Due to my everyday environment (urban and office work), if I had to leave one at home, I would keep the Leatherman PST II on my belt.
More versatile.

As Canadian I totally disagree with the thrust of your argument. The only way a population can be completely free is to have the ability to stand up for itself, against either its own government, or against an invading force. Canada's gun control laws are a huge waste of time and money. There are millions of unregistered guns in Canada and it will stay that way for all time.

As for your argument that allowing people access to weapons is "pouring gas on a smouldering cigarette", what about Switzerland where every military reserve member, which happens to be just about every able bodied male in the country, has a government issue assault weapon in his home?

We don't see the Swiss engaged in violent gun battles in the streets. In fact, the Swiss homicide rate in 2000 was 0.96 per 100,000 while Canada's was 1.76 and England which has very strict gun control laws was 1.61. The control of guns does not control gun crime.

I had better stop here or I am going to start ranting more than I already have. Let's just leave it at this: the urban, Eastern Canadian desire to control guns is an attempt to force urban, Eastern values on all Canadians, including those of us in the West. And that, my fine fellow Canadian, is something we will never accept.

Good point, Nic, who says we're not?

Thanks Paul, VERY well said.

Troy

Like a moth to the flame...

Thanks for the update on the Switzerland vs England figures, I use that example all the time, kind of hard to argue with cold hard facts <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Troy

Paula,

what a crock!

Expalin to me how allowing nutcases and criminals the same access to asualt weapons as law abiding cicitzens is a good thing.

Explain to me ho w not having assualt weapons affects you and your family in defending itself against your government.

Explain to me how youd tell families of mowed down children or inocents in a park that assault weapons are needed for hobbies or hunting or defense against your lame government.

I shot nearly all issue auto weapons in the military for years and feel relatively confident my hunting rifle and shotgun would defend my family just fine thanks.

Don't buy it , not one Canadian peso's worth.

One thing is for sure the cats out of the bag in the USA never to return so assualt weapons are pretty much a must to even the playing field.

Canada has a good thing going they shouldn't screw it up.

Flip

"Expalin to me how allowing nutcases and criminals the same access to asualt weapons as law abiding cicitzens is a good thing."

Wrong. Criminals and mental patients are ALREADY prohibited from owning firearms. You should know that already.

"Explain to me ho w not having assualt weapons affects you and your family in defending itself against your government."

Wrong. Nobody is talking about assault weapons. As others have told you before, we are talking about self-loading weapons, not full auto. Let's get the semiauto ban lifted, then let's get to work on the 1934 ban on full auto.

"Explain to me how youd tell families of mowed down children or inocents in a park that assault weapons are needed for hobbies or hunting or defense against your lame government."

I'd look them in the eye and say, quite truthfully: "My firearms did nothing to you and never will." Not that such a ridiculously melodramatic scenario would ever occur though.

"One thing is for sure the cats out of the bag in the USA never to return so assualt weapons are pretty much a must to even the playing field."

Good point. I'm never going to give mine up. If me owning an SKS upsets you, well too bad. Get over it because there is NOTHING you can do about it.

Vince

You guys trying to get another thread locked?

"Expalin to me how allowing nutcases and criminals the same access to asualt weapons as law abiding cicitzens is a good thing."

Wrong. Criminals and mental patients are ALREADY prohibited from owning firearms. You should know that already.

Wrong Wrong . You are assuming all nutcases are known and have a neon sign blinking "about to crack" The sniper shootings case in point.

"Explain to me how not having assualt weapons affects you and your family in defending itself against your government."

Wrong. Nobody is talking about assault weapons. As others have told you before, we are talking about self-loading weapons, not full auto. Let's get the semiauto ban lifted, then let's get to work on the 1934 ban on full auto.

Wrong Wrong. I am talking about semi autos and any other weapon that a dummy can convert to full auto. Full auto ban is a given.


"Explain to me how youd tell families of mowed down children or inocents in a park that assault weapons are needed for hobbies or hunting or defense against your lame government."

I'd look them in the eye and say, quite truthfully: "My firearms did nothing to you and never will." Not that such a ridiculously melodramatic scenario would ever occur though.

WRong Wrong. The same laws that allow you to buy assualt weapons also allows nutcases known or about to become access the same as you. After you pick up your teeth if you ever said that to me after my kids were killed Id explain how your wrong again. BTW this does happen all too much I suggest you look up workplace gun violence and school shootings and learn some.

Flip

Too bad you can't turn all that rage into gasoline, Flip, you could make a fortune in Florida <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />LOL.

Troy

Might I suggest that you all take this to PM. It is getting a tad more than ugly.

M <img src="/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Who was it that said (in effect) "the weather's not gonna change, move"? The climate on the gun issue is pretty well set too (I hope), so what are you waiting for?

Troy

P.S. Sadly, I don't really believe this, we've got a long way to go before enough gun laws have been repealed <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Sorry 'bout that, I'll try to bite my tongue, er, fingers, er...whatever.

Troy

There is no rage LMAO! <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Just giving an opposite point of view different to the prevailing opinion I guess. Last time I checked its still legal.

My intent is not to offend honestly just balancing out points of view.

We all need to chill a bit.

Flip

Multitool or knife.Multitool or knife.Multitool or knife.Multitool or knife.Multitool or knife.Multitool or knife.Multitool or knife.

?You are assuming all nutcases are known and have a neon sign blinking ?about to crack? "

Funny, in all my years on this planet I?ve never seen a sign like that. But there are laws against criminals and the mentally ill acquiring weapons. One way or another they still get them, don?t they? What makes you think that the self loading weapons ban works any better?

?I am talking about semi autos and any other weapon that a dummy can convert to full auto.?

Well if any dummy can do it perhaps you can share your secret then? <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Sounds like a pretty handy thing to know. Of course there is a law against actually doing that too. Each violation is punishable by 10 years in prison and a $10,000 fine.

?After you pick up your teeth if you ever said that to me after my kids were killed Id explain how your wrong again.?

Yeah. I?m really shaking. You evidently have a rich, full fantasy life.

?I suggest you look up workplace gun violence and school shootings and learn some.?

Sorry. I can?t look any up because there have been no school or workplace shootings in the last 10 years. That?s right, none! That?s because we?ve had the ?Assault Weapons Ban? in place protecting us! Yup. Schumer and Feinstein promised us 10 years ago that the ?Assault Weapons Ban? would stop all gun violence and it did just that. These shootings you hear about must be figments of some reporter?s imagination.

Vince

The funny thing is that when I asked the original question I wasn't really even considering defense as a factor. I was just trying to decide whether to carry my RSK, Juice KF4 or SOG Powerlock for EDC. <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Defense is kind of a non-issue. I have it ingrained in me from bazillions of hours of training to respond with equal (or even less) force than is put upon me, so odds are that in a defense situation that I can not or will not run from, I'm not getting ruthless and bloody with a knife. I'm either going with hands/feet for restaint or non leathal weapons (if any). If lethal force is actually needed it's coming from my sidearm...not a knife. Like I said... The funny thing is that when I asked the original question I wasn't really even considering defense as a factor. I was just trying to decide whether to carry my Benchmade RSK, Leatherman Juice KF4 or SOG Powerlock for EDC in an effort to be well prepared for an unexpected urban/suburn survival situation. One where I might have to travel 20 miles on foot to get from work to home...etc. I'm sure Flippy will have some comment about how ridiculous this is but I can ignore that as I have done in the past. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The multi-tools certainly have lots of uses but I can fashion a lot of what I need with a good *strong* blade like the one on the RSK and it is a lot lighter than any multi-tool worth its salt <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Kinda funny how the thread evolved though. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> heheheh.....

Oh and I still haven't been able to make up my mind on what to carry for EDC. I'm carrying the SOG and the RSK right now on most days and having to tighten my belt and extra notch to keep my pants up! With cell phone, wallet, SOG Powerlock, Benchmade RSK, keys and a bandana I have about 1 LB of junk in my pockets or on my belt! I'm trying hard to lighten the load! I'm pretty big on EDC preparedness. My PSK is basically in my wallet and pockets, on my belt, around my neck and on my wrist day in and day out and even as a bare minimum when I can carry NOTHING else (like swimming or tooling around the lake on a personal watercraft wearing nothing but shorts/swimsuit) I still have a a knife on 5' paracord a lanyard around my neck... and take my word for it... I can do a lot with a knife as long as I'm able-bodied. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Ho hum didley dum ..... still can't decide. <img src="/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />