Norad45:

Facetious!, that's the word I was trying to think of.

According to a Websters vest pocket dictionary, deluxe edition of about 50,000 words, it means "gay, witty".

Keep in mind this is a very old pocket dictionary from my high school days before "gay" was adopted as a sexual orientation description.

When the late President John F. Kennedy was assasinated on November 22, 1963 and they attributed the act to M1938 Italian Carcano 6.5mm (Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38) rifle, I knew they were lying.

Back then I was still in high school, and very heavily into guns with subscriptions to most of the gun magazines and I hung around with like minded people.

Guns could be pruchased through the mail, and handguns required nothing more than a statement that the purchaser was 21 years of age or older. The 6.5 Italian Carcano had such a bad reputation for reliability and accuracy that they were making them into floor lamps. It was rumored that they came with instructions to grab the rifles by the barrels and use them as clubs for the best results.

Lee Harvey Oswald did not have the ability to make the kinds of shots attributed to a lone gunman, and an expert rifleman would never have used such a piece of crap for an assasination.

Moving to "Around the campfire" under Bountyhunters musings. All are invited to discuss, argue, criticize, or just laugh at the postings.

Try to keep it civil enough so Chris isn't forced to shut us down. That means using really high-brow put downs and innuendo.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Weapon No 109
Rifle 6.5 mm M1938 (Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38)
REME Weapon 109 - Rifle 6.5 mm M1938 (Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38) REME Weapon 109 Detail - Rifle 6.5 mm M1938 (Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38)

This rifle became of international interest when President John F Kennedy, 35th President of the United States, was assassinated on 22 November 1963. An example of the Mannlicher-Carcano was originally presumed to have been used by the assassin since one was found nearby, but later detail investigations have thrown doubt on this. The Museum's example was produced in 1940 at the Italian arsenal at Terni. In 1938, with the introduction of the 7.35 mm cartridge, a new short rifle and two patterns of carbines chambered for this cartridge were introduced, all with fixed sights. The entrance of Italy into World War 2 in 1940, with insufficient supplies of ammunition at hand, caused second thoughts on the use of another cartridge and that same year the 6.5 mm was reintroduced, and Carcanos manufactured from that date were again chambered for the 6.5 mm cartridge.

The information above this paragraph and below my name was taken from a website dedicated to Italian Carcano rifles maintained by United Kingdom residing entities.

Thanks Bountyhunter...

You have made my day! <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Lee <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Leeman:

Yeh, we were way off track from the original thread, and I figured it was going to shut down a good thread.

If we get shut down here, at least it is not as important as survival information.

Bountyhunter

I believe the definition should be updated to read "unsuitabably witty".
As for an "expert" rifleman it should be noted that the definition of an "expert" is:

"An "Ex" is a has been, or an unkown quantity
and a spurt is a drip under pressure."

I'll leave the "gay" part to others...
<img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Joblot:

With nasty descriptions like that about "Expert", I'm glad I went all the way to "Distinguished Rifleman, 4th Bar" in the NRA's small caliber qualifications, and only as far as Marksman First Class with a "US Caliber .45 Auto" pistol.

I didn't go further with the pistol qualification due to inability to practice with no money to buy cartridges. I did manage to screw up my hearing pretty good though.

As for the "unsuitably" remark, please respect that each has their own opininon, or if they are a spinmiester, has their orders.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As regards your marksmanship, I have the utmost respect.

I was rather uncerimonially chucked out of my school shooting club for being, in a word - crap.
In my defence however the ancient .303 bolt action rifles had a horrendous kick and rather squiffy sights.....at least thats my excuse! <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Regards
Joblot

Joblot:

That is what I like about .22's which is what I used for the rifle qualifications.

I don't know if I would have survived the constant kick of a .303 when you consider the number of targets you have to turn in by the time you get that high in the ratings Distinguished rifleman for small caliber rifle had either 6,7,or 8 bars after getting the gold colored chest shield. To my great regret, I can not remember where I put that shield and bars. The NRA maintains a record of my scores, but does not offer that type of chest shield anymore.

I used a light target rifle with leather sling which I have to this day. It is a Mossberg bolt action magazine feed Model 340B with a Mossberg peep sight. Back then, Mossberg used to make rifles.

Bountyhunter

>>Lee Harvey Oswald did not have the ability to make the kinds of
>>shots attributed to a lone gunman, and an expert rifleman would
>>never have used such a piece of crap for an assasination.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - and OJ was much too smart to have dropped one of his gloves at the scene of the crime, too.

Criminals aren't always the savviest bunch. Nutbar criminals, like the ones that shoot Presidents in order to get their names in the newspaper, are even less so. Trying to decide whether a nutcase is guilty based on what an intelligent, rational person would do is a fool's errand.

It's a fact that JFK's itinerary for the motorcade was published well in advance so the crowds could line the street; it's a fact that the limousine had to make a 90 degree right turn, followed almost immediately by a greater-than-90 degree left turn, immediately prior to reaching the location where JFK was shot; one didn't need to be any kind of an expert to realise that the limousine would have been almost stopped when it made the second turn and would have presented a perfect target.

On what grounds do you conclude that Oswald "didn't have the ability"? It wasn't (or, if you prefer, wouldn't have been) a particularly long or difficult shot, especially at an almost stationary target. The limousine was travelling very slowly; it was moving away from him (thus, there would have been very little lateral movement, meaning there was no need to "lead" the target). I'm pretty sure I made more difficult shots than that the first time they handed me a rifle on the shooting range in basic training.

O.K.guys, keep it fun. No conspiracies, silencer instructions from Paladin Press or references to The Protocols of Zion. Step over the line of ETS guidlines and a black helicopter will be sent to bug your Altoid Tin PSKs. Personally, I sold my SMLE to a Afrikaaner who I.D.ed it as a S.A. rifle this afternoon. I have an online friend named Yasha in Saint Petersburg. It turns out she lost family in this unspeakable horror. I didn't beat my SMLE into a plowshare, but it bought her a roundtrip ticket home she otherwise couldn't afford. Events like this make all the hot air of politics and the twin evils of bigotry and extreme ethnicity seem less worthy of humanity than children squabbling over crayons. Who killed Kennedy? We all did, everytime we get angry over stuff that doesn't mean diddly.

Bounty, the Carcano Oswald used was noted for its unreliability in BATTLE CONDITIONS, (i.e.: full of mud, dirty, etc.) I don’t think conditions in the Book Depository were quite as harsh as your typical Italian slit trench.

Conspiracy theorists dismiss the Carcano because it doesn’t fit their notions of what a well-funded assassin would use. But it is exactly the type of weapon that a lone nut-job like Oswald would be able to afford. He probably chose the cheapest rifle in the entire catalog. I mean, did you expect him to spring for a Weatherby?

The fact is, a Carcano was found at the scene. Not a Winchester Model 70. Not a Remington 720. Not a fancy engraved English double rifle. I think it is odd that finding what one would logically expect to find somehow provides more evidence of a coverup.

But that’s the way it always is with conspiracy theories.

Regards, Vince

Norad45:

It occurs to me that anyone making a decision of the magnitude of killing a President of the United States would chose a reliable weapon that had proved itself capable on the battlefield.

I suppose the Carcano was also able to make the "magic bullet flight path" the lone gunman managed to achieve.

If I remember correctly, the Carcano sold for about $12.00 through the mail and you could buy a Mauser for under $30.00.

If you are an asassin, an extra $18.00 is not going to disuade you.

Of course it was a real convincing photograph with unnatural shadow details that had Lee H. Oswald holding a Carcano that really convinced the masses.

Bountyhunter

Aardwolfe:

Based on his military record at the time, he just made the grade in marksmanship. If I remember correctly they were using M1s which are semi-automatic.

The background data did not list Oswald as a hunter or gun enthusiest and you would have me believe that he could work a bolt action rifle of questionalble reliability and hit the targets each time? I've had bolt actions, pumps, lever actions, and semi-autos, and in my experience semi-autos are best for maintaining repeat target acquasition for follow up shots.

I couldn't buy it then, I don't buy it now.

Best of all, despite the integrity of the Secret Service, you think the route was chosen at random without concerns for security. The route you described so well was chosen for the express purpose of presenting an easy target, but the gunmen did not, in my opinion include Lee Harvey Oswald.

Unfortunately, we will never know because smart employers of paid asassins get rid of the loose ends quickly. I would guess that the actual trigger men didn't live to see the next day, and I would further guess that the men in contact with the trigger men were also dispatched soon thereafter.

That leaves us with no trail and a bunch of optimists who very dearly want to believe that the rich of their country do not really run it with murderous hands.

I still believe the Kennedy's, Dr. King, and a slew of less notable individuals were killed for economic considerations and not by "nut cases", although you could argue that those who value money and power more than human life are "nut cases".

Bountyhunter

To all:

Went to the NRA site today to see if I could replace the shooting medals I had lost somewhere in my house.

The good news is they have medals, but they are not as nice as the ones I had earlier, so I will replace them (And a week later I will probably find the old ones.).

The bad news is I MISSTATED MY QUALIFICATIONS for smallbore rifle.

The Sharpshooter qualification with 9 bars comes before Expert, and after Expert comes Distinguished rifleman.

So, in rifle smallbore, I have Pro-Marksman, Marksman, Marksman 1st Class, Sharpshooter with 4 bars, and quite a ways to go before finishing that division. Please keep in mind that this is smallbore paper target shooting which is not as stressful as those of you that shoot large caliber weapons in real life situations (I still believe I would have been a better sniper than that dipstick that shot Mrs. Weaver at Ruby Ridge.).

Bountyhunter

Paladin press sells silencer instructions?

Geesh, and I have been wasting gas going to my local library for all of that sort of information.

Next thing you're going to tell me is that you can buy nuclear bomb making instructions on the internet and I have been paying overdue book penalties for the stuff I got from the library.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

?Unfortunately, we will never know because smart employers of paid asassins get rid of the loose ends quickly.?

This is great! So now the very fact that there is no evidence for the existence of a conspiracy is by itself evidence that such a conspiracy exists? That's what I call an irrefutable argument! <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Regards, Vince

“It occurs to me that anyone making a decision of the magnitude of killing a President of the United States would chose a reliable weapon that had proved itself capable on the battlefield.”

Well, you would. And I would. But neither of us has the faintest idea what Lee Harvey Oswald would do because we ain’t him.

“If you are an asassin, an extra $18.00 is not going to disuade you.”

Unless of course you simply don’t have it and can’t get it. $18.00 was a lot more money 40 years ago.

I am somewhat surprised that someone with your obvious background and knowledge of shooting would still cling to the “magic bullet” nonsense. I think that theory, which should be more properly termed the “multiple bullet” theory, has been effectively refuted. Look here for an in-depth discussion with diagrams and photos:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt.htm

In brief, it shows that since Governor Connally was sitting well in front of and to the left of Kennedy then the whole question of the bullet making the mythical “right turn” becomes moot—the bullet behaved exactly the way bullets do.

Give it a read. It’s not as glamorous as Oliver Stone but it’s a lot more convincing—at least to me.

Regards, Vince

The only way we'll ever know what happened for sure is to send the team from CSI to look around on the "grassy knoll"!
gino <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

>>Based on his military record at the time, he just made the
>>grade in marksmanship.

Meaning he could hit the target?

>>The background data did not list Oswald as a hunter or
>>gun enthusiest and you would have me believe that he
>>could work a bolt action rifle of questionalble reliability and
>>hit the targets each time?

I could be misrembering but I thought he fired twice and missed once?

In any event, if I were going to shoot the President of the United States, I'd probably practise up a little first, so the fact that he wasn't a hunter or gun enthusiast strikes me as kind of irrelevant. I'm not a hunter or gun enthusiast either, but I'm pretty sure I could hit a stationary man-sized target at that range if I went out and practised for a couple of weeks. Hell, I could do it at twice that range in basic training, and I was a radio operator.


>> I've had bolt actions, pumps, lever actions, and semi-
>>autos, and in my experience semi-autos are best for
>>maintaining repeat target acquasition for follow up shots.

And your point is? <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> (You're still assuming that whoever did the shooting was acting rationally and intelligently; take away that assumption and there's no reason not to believe that the shooter would use a cheap, mail order, bolt-action rifle. There's no evidence that the shooter was able to follow up any of his shots, so why is that relevant to the discussion?)

Norad45:

Sorry, Chris requested no more conspiracies on this thread so in the interests of other readers who may want to post opinions, I will decline to respond so that hopefully the thread stays open to those who have yet to offer views.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Conspiracy theory??? I have a friend that volunteers his time and CPU processes to the SETI project. He says they got a response recently. I told him that if those aliens come to enslave us now that he has helped let them know that we are here, then I'm gonna kick his a$$. <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />