Norad45:

You are starting to sound like a government or pro-Bush spinmiester.

All right, he took away my ability to carry a pocket knife on an airplane.

He made me guilty until proven innocent by taking away my ability to carry a pocket knife anywhere.

He made me a target of inept "security" people because if I get a dark tan with my Baltic features, I might be "one of them" that some ditty anal retentive "pc" type points out because I take pictures of interesting sights.

Bountyhunter

(P.S. Yeah, I know you weren't talking to me, but you government spinmiesters tend to scare off otherwise good people and I would hate to see you go unanswered.)

Flipper, Flipper, Flipper!:

The masses with like resources can always, ALWAYS overcome the individual.

The bad guys will always find a way to get what they want onboard and the ones that could have stopped them will have nothing.

You sound like one of those "give them what they want and they won't hurt us types" when you say you feel safer because there are no blades on board.

Since 9-11 there have been several instances where the passengers took matters into their own hands to contain a situation.

Based on your post, I'm sure you would never have been in such a group.

Bountyhunter

Nic:

You're all right!

I realize that Chris may shut this post down, but I had to deal with a government spinmiester on another forum who called himself "Paper Tiger", and part of their tactics are to shut you up publically.

Dam the "Personal Messages", full speed ahead.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

“Not wanting to hijack this forum with a bunch of political bickering unrelated to this forums purpose, if you want to reply, please send a PM.”

I’m sorry Nic, but the thread has already been hijacked. I asked a question about hacksaw blades and the TSA. You (and others) made the charge that the Bush administration has been eroding civil rights. I asked you to cite an example from your own personal experience. You replied with a lengthy PM that provided no such example. You see, I was interested in hearing how the Bush administration had managed to cross the border and steal your civil rights. I am somewhat relieved to hear that hasn’t happened after all.

I appreciate your concerns about American civil rights, but don’t forget that we have been doing a pretty good job guarding them for about 220+ years. There have been some bumps in the road, and some folks have had to wait much too long to get them. But I think you will find that when it comes to hanging on to TRUE civil rights (the first 10 Amendments to the Constituion), we are pretty tenacious.

I will not get into the contents of your PM; it is private after all. Suffice it to say that during an American election year one is apt to find all sorts of hooey splattered all over the internet, and if you believe about 1% of it you will likely be on safe ground.

However, one thing we can all be sure of: no matter who wins the election, I’m STILL not going to be able to carry a piece of hacksaw blade on a commercial flight.

Regards, Vince

"All right, he took away my ability to carry a pocket knife on an airplane."

I think that has been prohibited since the hijack craze of the early 1970's.

"He made me guilty until proven innocent by taking away my ability to carry a pocket knife anywhere."

Are you a felon? If so, the prohibition against carrying a weapon predates President Bush by a considerable margin. I'm not quite sure what else you could be referring to. I'm sure many of us still can and do legally carry pocket knives almost everywhere. I know I do.

Your charge that I am a government "spinmeister" is, frankly, pretty silly. If I am then I have yet to get my check <img src="/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Vince

I live in Canada Vince, I am not concerned with the Bush admin taking away my rights, im concerned about them taking away YOUR rights and providing the wrong example for the world. America has always led the world in freedom and liberty, when you start to lose your way, the rest of the world will follow. I provided a littenay of examples of how the Bush admin has really just acted shamefully and have used the innocent deaths of 9/11 to steer policy as far right as possible.

I know what your saying and Im sure you believe it and have no intention of letting them take your rights, but saddly they are. I should make it clear that they are not "planning" to take away right in the future sometime, they have activily started and have already eroded some of the most sacred rights we should all hold dear. You mentioned the key amendmennt rights and those are excellent examples. Just the Patriot act alone puts your first, fourth and fifth amendment rights in danger. The first amendment protects your freedom of expression and free speech and is nesecary in a safe and free democracy. However under the patriot act, expressions and statements can be used as probable cause or cause for suspicion. And Im not talking about dumb people who say things like "ima gonna kill the president!," that is a threat and is cause for alarm. What the patriot act does is make it so particpating in protests, or critizing the governmen, basically saying things they dont like can theoretically be used a grounds for searches and questioning. If people have to fear that what they will say will land them in jail or even just get put them in a position where they will be intimidated by police, then your freedom of speech and expression is in jepordy.

The fourth amendment protects the sancity of your home and your rights to be protected from unreasonable searches and seizures. Basically it means the police and other agencies need a warrant to search your home, you and anywhere else and to get a warrent they must demonstrate probable cause that you have commited a crime. With the patriot act, government agencies no longer need a warrent to search your home and all your records so long as they claim it pertains to a foreinge terrorist investigation. However, there is no oversight to ensure that these searches and seizures have anything to do with terrorism. In fact, they don't even have to insinuate that you are the terrorist, they just have to say that it came up in the course of a terrorist investigation. They don't even have to tell you that they have performed a search or have siezed records on you anymore. So now were up to a place where expressing your opinon can land you in the hotseat and the governement can go into your home and search through your private belongings and can even seize all your bank, libary, electronic ect records without even making you aware that they are investigating you. I am all for the war on terror and I believe that the laws regarding police searches need to reexamined but this is going too far. A place where anti-government statements lead to midnight searches and covert survalicance is not America.

The fifth amendment guarantees that no one will be held or imprissoned without due and fair leagal proceedings. This is the key that makes up a democracy, we think before we chuck people in a hole. The Pat act though lets them hold suspected terrorists or those that may come up in the course of a terrorist investigation indefniately and without due process or defenses or anything else that makes up America. Am I saying "boo hooo those poor terrorist"? Hell no! What I am saying is that with their board definintion of what they consider a terrorist, the fact that you don't even have to be a terrorist, you just came up in an investigation you can be held just the same, and the criminal lack of oversight and accountability, your giving them a blank cheque to abuse power. You give anyone that much power with so little accountability and they will abuse it. I realize we live in a different world now, and I have no sympathy to terrorist assholes that would harm the innocent, but we can't just say to the government "here, do whatever you like" because that is not America and that is not the America to lead the world.

We need to protect ourselves from terrorism and we need to reexamine our legal system, but that does not mean we have to chuck all the rights and freedoms that make up America in the dustbin. Instead of focusing on real terrorists and real threats, the Bush admin has waged a war on its own people under the guise of security and it sickens me. Be really careful when someone asks you to trade in your liberty for security, you probably won't end up with either.

“What the patriot act does is make it so particpating in protests, or critizing the governmen, basically saying things they dont like can theoretically be used a grounds for searches and questioning.”

So am I to assume that all those protesters in NYC this week have all been searched, detained, and questioned under the Patriot Act? Funny, I must have missed that on the news.

“With the patriot act, government agencies no longer need a warrent to search your home and all your records so long as they claim it pertains to a foreinge terrorist investigation.”

Wrong. In order for charges to hold up in court, a warrant must be issued by a judge for the search.

“The Pat act though lets them hold suspected terrorists or those that may come up in the course of a terrorist investigation indefniately and without due process or defenses or anything else that makes up America.”

Wrong. It only allows those taken in arms against the United States to be detained. That’s why the Lackawanna Six are not at Guantanamo.

“Instead of focusing on real terrorists and real threats, the Bush admin has waged a war on its own people under the guise of security and it sickens me.”

So Richard Reid (the “shoebomber”) was not a threat? How about the Taliban, who aided and protected Osama and Co.? What about Jose Padilla, who wanted to give Chicago a taste of ol’ plutonium? Saddam? Uday and Qusay? These are just the famous names; what about the hundreds who have funneled money and support? Many of them are now in jail, either having plead out or awaiting trial. They are all real terrorists and real threats. I don’t see any other victims of the Patriot Act.

Regards, Vince

P.S.: I am impressed with your knowledge of our Bill of Rights. Just don’t forget the most important amendment: the 2nd!

"I think that has been prohibited since the hijack craze of the early 1970's."

Resonable length pocket knives were alowed on all flights pre 911.

Bounty Please you amuse me so.

The passengers had the chance to make it right on Sept11. You think nobody else had a knife on those planes? Please.

K hero what would you have done when they put the plane into a spin and or had a box cutter to the neck of a 5 years old.

I guess you've taken back a plane with terrorists on it with your wife and kids next to you huh?

Your a hero.

LMAO

Flip

ok heres my 2 cents for what its worth, specifically on those "protesters."

people carrying around such objects as ball bearings, sharpened wooden sticks, razor blades and such to harrass police (and horses especially) should have been treated as terrorists because thats exactly what their motivation was to inspire chaos, panic fear and terror.

theres NO logical reason to carry sharpened sticks and razor blades to a "peacefull protest".

and of course my city gets screwed again because of the protesters connections, many are filling lawsuits about being detained and some psychotic judge has fined the city about 200k for detaining those "poor people" too long.


meanwhile a few thugs are CLEARLY caught on tape violently beating and stomping on someone to beat him to death, and the current legal defense is something along the lines of "he wasnt clearly identified ad a police officer".

hmm so i guess a violent mob of people attempting to murder a citizen isnt a crime anymore then?

or maybe they thought people got free passes to stand on the police side of the barricade on those mobile scooters then?


like the man said "only in america".