hello,<br>I was just wondering why Doug Ritters saw in his survival kit had the handles still on it. as it would take up a lot less space if the handles had been removed.<br><br>

Doug's busy with some related conventions, Ill attempt an answer. We are talking the wire saw in the pocket kit. The handles are two split rings detached for packing. The premise of the pocket kit is loss of other gear. So, here you are, just staggered out of a down aircraft, capsized canoe or avalanche that took your camp. You've dressed (hopeully) minimum wounds and popped a pain killer for that wrenched shoulder. You need a fire and shelter. You pull out your saw, no handles. You can improvise some with fishing line and sticks,but it's cold and getting dark. This kit is to keep you alive RIGHT NOW. improvisation can come with the sunrise.

I take your point! <br>I will have to do something about the one in my survival kit since mine is minus the handles.<br>thank you very much for ansering my Q.<br>

Why not bootlace loops as improvised handles ?<br><br>If your fingers are too numb to do this then they are too numb to lash poles together anyway!

Im rather fond of bootlaces for survival use, on my boots. It doesn't take much to improvise your basic kit into utter uselessness. Loose boots are an invitation to a shattered ankle. I suppose you could then amputate with the wire saw.

Laces return to boots once sawing complete - of course!<br>Thanks for prompt reply.

If you're going to pull your bootlaces out, the only time worse than going up rocks to do so is when you are cutting wood. <br><br>Trust me, my summer jobs in high school frequently had me part of one small logging crew or another.

I would be quite impressed to see you do "logging" with a wire saw. The most you are likely to do is cut through a small 2" - 4" limb to construct a lean-to or tripod. There is unlikely to be anything small enough to cut with a wire saw that is also large enough to cause pain when dropped on your foot. With solid footing on level ground you should be able to wield a wire hand saw barefoot without much worry. OTOH I wouldn't think of using anything as large a an 18" bow saw without my boots on. cutting 12" diameter logs with an 18" wire saw will probably not happen. Cutting down a 12 " tree with a 18" bow saw is common and quite dangerous without your boots properly in place. Just my two cents.

The question was why two split rings were in the pocket kit. Splitting hairs about split rings is rather academic. What item of value that could be inluded has been denied the user?The motivation is to survive, not out McGyver Rube Goldberg. Surely somebody has survived with paper matches. Do I want to downgrade my firekit for the sake of a few grams weight or space for a second bullion cube?

OK in fairness the question with anything in the PSK is a trade off between usability of a given device and the opportunity to carry more of another or something completely different. Sacrificing the convenience of the split rings is certainly not necessary and the kit that Doug has put together is not missing anything so I don't see any need to worry overly much about it. OTOH it remains possible and worthwhile to attempt to examine, modify and improve in all cases.<br><br> In the case of a couple of split rings which could be adequetly substituted by the paracord, the nylon string or the shoelaces (all of which are available with DR's kit) you could be carying a significant amount of additional snare wire. Try coiling up the snare wire to the same dimensions as the two split rings stacked and see how much you have. I would approximate around 10' extra snare wire. You could probably fit 4 times that much in extra fishing line. Or perhaps some nylon twine which has multiple uses. Also the Split Rings are very rigid which makes packing the PSK somewhat more difficult. <br><br>Another consideration is the comfort of using the split rings in the first place. I have found that they are very uncomfortable unless a stick is placed in them to provide a T handle . If I use them in this manner then anything that attaches the saw blade to the sticks is adequate so the nylon twine or the paracord or the shoe lace would be fine. <br><br>Surely if you have more space then it would be nice to bring the handles. But If I had more space (even a little) I would have the pocket chain saw instead. That is what I carry in my butt-pack which is always as close as my car. What I can fit in my psk needs to be as much multi-use and flexible as possible. The split rings do have other uses but as far as I can see the nylon twine can server most of them and be much more flexible in the bargain. The split rings, as handles to the saw, are single use items and in an altoids sized tin they take up quite a bit of room. The comfort of using a bic butane lighter is vastly superior to a sparklite but I can't fit one of them (even the mini version which I carry in my butt pack) in the space a sparklite takes up. The tinder of the sparklite is smoooshed into all of the other unusable spaces which are too wierdly shaped to fit anything useful and therfore take up no room. Sorry if I inflamed anyone with previous posts.

>>>In the case of a couple of split rings which could be adequetly substituted by the paracord, the nylon string or the shoelaces (all of which are available with DR's kit) you could be carying a significant amount of additional snare wire. <<<<br><br>A valid arguement. But my thinking is that I would value the split rings more than the extra snare wire. In order of importance, fire and shelter would be my most immediate concern over snaring food, especially considering that I'm mostly a car camper on day hikes or a weekend backpacker in non-wilderness parks. If I find myself in need of my PSK, I doubt I'll get to the point where I'm hunting or fishing. It's always possible so you have the tools to do so just in case.<br><br>On the other hand, you could always add additional split rings to your coat and/or gear. I view the PSK as a fail safe piece of gear. But under most circomstances, you won't find youself standing naked in the woods or in the water with only the PSK in your hand. If you're experienced enough to have constructed, tested and pack a PSK, you are likely to have other gear with you in the vent of an emergency.<br><br>Your comment about multiple vs. single use items is interesting. Can anyone either think of other uses for split rings or suggest another item to replace it that has multiple uses (other than shoelaces as we already discussed thet item)?

Well, I am having enough second thoughts about these split rings that I am going to be forced to do some testing this weekend. I am thinking that the expedient of twine, shoelaces, or paracord to replace the split rings would certainly wear through and fail quicker than the split rings. I am going to do some "lumbering" with the wire saw this weekend and I will post the results of the durability of various expedient handles fashioned from the contents of my psk. Yes, I do have split rings on me at all times since there are more than a few involved in my key ring assemblage. For the sake of this weekends test I am ruling them off-limits. I will attempt using the twine, the paracord, the shoe-laces (though they are not legetimately in the psk), the snare wire, and perhaps the safty-pins.<br><br>I will post my results on Monday.

I wasn't thinking in terms of steel toes. I was thinking more in terms of ankle support.<br><br>If your boots aren't secure, you'll slide in them. And I know from having done it that you can go after 10 and 12 inch trees with a wire saw. Nothing you want to have loose boots on when it chooses to tell you the wind has shifted, by jumping at you. That, and ever time I've delimbed by foot, I've been glad I've had my boots securely on, with good ankle support. <br><br>Selective cutting in places like Vermont, and then taking the wood out by hand or by horse team, is a lot different than clear cutting any place, especially in the western 2/3s of America. That's what my experince is.