<br><br>Sounds ominous! Are we talking about different manufacturers here? I still use one that I purchased in the early 60s, along with magazines, and it works quite well. I believe at least two subsequent firms have taken over the design and marketed later versions.<br><br>In a survival game hunting situation, I would tend to employ it as a single shot, anyway.

Hmmm... lots of good advice so far. Don't be too discouraged by it - I want to add my 2 cents worth to help you out a little bit.<br><br>First - give us a framework to work with so we have some context. You're saying BoB, but that covers a lot of territory. From where to where for how long for what - get the idea? Let's figure out the (anticipated) problem a little before we jump into the solution. It would really help us give you good, kindly advice.<br><br>Until/unless I hear a bit more, it's hard to guess what you're thinking. IIRC, here's what I heard so far: you're 23, in college in MN, like military gear a lot, money is tight, and you're not an experienced hunter. <br><br>What I am guessing is that you're not yet an experienced outdoorsman and that you started out with essentially no gear. Nothing wrong with that - you're thinking and doing - good for you!<br><br>Before I forget, here's some context for my opinions: I spent more years active duty US Army - combat arms, not support - than you have been alive; I have not been retired very long. I think I can speak from experience about some of your gear choices.<br><br>IMHO, there are a number of needful things missing from your list, and a lot of things that you do not *need* (it's OK to have lots of toys - usually better to take care of *needs* first, then toys <grin>)<br><br>So... just a few comments for now; more later if you like, and feel free to contact me off-list. <br><br>My only HUGE knee-jerk adverse reaction to your list is the ALICE - yucck!!! What a NASTY rucksack! And - as has been pointed out - the LARGE is the only one to consider, especially in your climate. The bag itself is OK, and as a generalization it is more durable than MOST commercial gear. The frame, OTOH, is a nightmare. It is a backbreaking, kidney gouging P*S. It was "designed" to reduce "heat rash" and sores from carrying loads in SE Asia and after we pulled out of Viet Nam, well, the politicos amputated equipment purchases and we had so many already in the pipeline that... it's STILL around.<br><br>It's really a horrible frame with a few good features. The simple quick-releases on the shoulder straps are good (especially if you have them on BOTH straps) - another time I can explain WHY it's a good idea). The back band WILL fail on you, and when it does, those frame wings WILL tear the heck out of you right about at the kidneys. I'm talking peeing blood hurt... I can go on in detail, but it's a NASTY design, not versitile, and breaks your back with any significant load.<br><br>If you want to retain the (LARGE) ALICE bag <shrug> OK - just have it modified to attach to a commercial frame. I've got over 5 man-years on-the-ground-real-life firsthand experience with a large ALICE mounted on a Camp Trails Freighter frame - including over 30 Arctic Combat Equipment jumps (parachuting) *with that combo* - it works fine. The Freighter frame is still made and is a heck of a value - not sexy like some of the folks here prefer, but it's a real work horse at a very reasonable cost.<br><br>ALICE bags are not waterproofed <shrug> - that means you MUST use waterproof bags inside it - it's designed that way. I have NEVER seen a surplus one sold with all the bags it's SUPPOSED to have. Actually, the rubberized ripstop bags for an ALICE are very good; in MY experience, better than commercial couterparts. If you learn how to fasten them correctly (it's easy and I can do it with mittens on in the dark, half asleep) they are truly waterproof. They are NOT intended to be exposed to the environment outside the protection of the ALICE, so don't use, say, a large one, for an external carry of a sleeping back. You'll rip it up.<br><br>The ALICE waterproof bags are nice; good enough to omit a pack cover if you like. (Commercial bags are not waterproof enough to omit a raincover anyway, so... and one does not need to be forced to spend a month out in the rain to figure out what works and what does not - one all-day rain will reveal all to you about what does NOT work)<br><br>Aside: There IS a tough waterproof Army bag that's OK for external use - and it's heavy. I cut one up and re-made it into a customized stuff sack for a selection of commercial sleeping bags many years ago - works fab - and I only use it if I suspect I'm going to put myself and my gear through some extraordinary tough conditions, because it's relatively heavy and inconvenient.<br><br>Bottom line - keep the LARGE ALICE bag if you must, but have it professionally modified to mate to a sturdy commercial frame. Leave the ALICE frame at home in your collection.<br><br>If your canteen cup is current issue (wire handles), keep it - it's a remendous piece of equipment ESPECIALLY if it's mated with the issue canteen and cover (with a bottle of iodine tablets in the little pouch provided). Very under rated pice of kit, that combo. If the canteen cup is the old-style with the flat metal handle... be careful. They burn you and they WILL collapse when you least want them to. Stick to the new style.<br><br>The canteens have one significant feature that can be a plus or minus, but is absolutely something you MUST learn to deal with in your climate: the small neck is a real PITA when the canteen freezes up. This is NOT trivial! You can deal with it, and perhaps the other advantages to the setup make it worth your while. There are an infinite number of ways to screw it up, though... and (sad to say) most GIs and ex GIs screw it up when they have a frozen canteen. At least do this: Buy a 20z wide mouth sports drink, consume the contents, and then convert it onto a neck bottle with some cord - cord and duct tape if you're not a knot wizard. In freezing temps, hang it around your neck under your outer garments and keep it full - it's "seed water". You'll figure it out when you practice (you ARE going to practice, right?)<br><br>I think the canteen cup stoves are not worth carrying - the only good thing about them is that they nest around an issue canteen. For less money you can get an Esbit. Watch The Sportsmans Guide website and you can get, say, two Esbit stoves, each full of fuel, for $5 - worth that for the fuel alone. However... a real stove is better, much better. If I give you suggestions now, there will be flames <grin>, so I'll hold off for now - just get an Esbit cheap for now and ditch the canteen cup stove. BTW, those surplus Trioxane bars? Know why they are surplus? They're out of date... short shelf life. If you already bought them, toss a box in for fire starters and leave the rest at home - there is a world of difference between fresh ones and dated ones. The Esbit fuel does not seem to have an expiration date that matters.<br><br><sigh> There's too much to nitpick on your current list - you're cirtically missing many things and have stuff that - while it's FINE to own - really is not important. Contact me off list if you want more feedback - I hate using this tiny window for lengthy replies. I'll be happy to comprehensively go over it with you off list, and I am NOT anti-military gear - I use a lot BY CHOICE - I can afford anything I want, can purchase brand-new military gear from the supply system - I think I'm pretty objective about it.<br><br>Oh - the BDUs - I have some reservations about those from a performance standpoint. 1) COTTON 2) COTTON 3) COTTON 4) No suspender loops 5) COTTON 6) @#%$@#@ slick flat nylon tape at ankle closures instead of round cord 7) COTTON....<br><br>I have two LARGE closets FULL of every kind of ISSUE BDUs made - all the issue patterns for all the climates. I DO NOT USE them if I have a choice - they are ONLY still around because I'm subject to recall until I get to a certain age and I have to purchase my own uniforms (not enlisted).<br><br>There are military clothes that perform extremely well. I use them. BDUs are OK in warm places, especially if have the "freedom" to modify HOW you wear them (like pulling the trouser legs up to ventilate). You can spend a lot of money trying to make them more water resistent, but it's a waste of money. They're cotton, and they suck when they get wet.<br><br>Again, off-list, I can tell you what would be FAR better - and even keep you in your "military gear" theme. Some of what I can suggest will raise some eyebrows here, I suppose, but I am certain what pieces work well together, and my suggestions are cheaper than BDUs anyway.<br><br>Last item: Hold off on your firearms until you get more important things taken care of. Go buy a case of ammo for your shotgun if you like, but hold off - there are a LOT of issues to consider, and you have more needful things. Firearms are a whole 'nother topic; contact me off list if you like. I like guns; have lots of them. But unless you've (SAFELY) literally grown up with firearms, used them a lot, I'd move them way down the list. Your shotgun is fine; keep it and enjoy using it. I'm more concerned about you having needed equipment and learning how to use it.<br><br>Which brings up a suggestion: Find an ACTIVE Scout Troop or (better) Venturing Crew that camps out of packs (not cars) at least once a month and join it as an Adult Leader - sets you back $7.00 Then go on all the campouts with them. You'll learn and practice a LOT of basics and all it costs is time (most Troops don't even charge the Adults for campout food - a thought for "broke college students"). Pretty cheap training; they PROBABLY won't teach you anything "bad" or "wrong", it's FUN, you'll make some great friends, and it gives something important back to your community. A real good deal...<br><br>Well, that's too many bites of elephant for now. I hope this gives you some food for thought. I think you're getting terriffic advice from everyone here, and if you want to pursue any of this with me here or off-list, have at it!<br><br>PostScript: When I mentioned the cheap "Esbit" stoves - I should have clarified - a "real" Esbit runs around $10, and the fuel tablets are a little under a buck each. The inexpensive stoves are knockoffs, but work fine - even the Boy Scouts sell one. I bought a bunch of the knock-off ones a coupla years back from The Sportsmans Guide - it was 2 / 5$ IIRC - just on spec. They work well enough - better with a HD Aluminum foil windscreen around them - altho the heat tabs are smaller than genuine Esbits, I think they are the same hexamine type (remember getting those surplus tubes of them decades ago) and the box is FULL of them.<br><br>Anyway, I had everyone toss one in their "Be Prepared" packs as an "extra" bit of kit to try out when we got around to it.<br><br>Eldest son (17 at the time) had a REAL occasion to use the cheap knockoff Esbit in his day pack in The Flattops Wilderness Area in winter conditions and it was "good enough" - he was glad to have it and re-stocked the fuel as soon as we got back. (And I was VERY proud of him for doing everthing right in the situation - you THINK they know what to do, you have fun practises, but there's always "Dad's worries" lurking around...)<br><br>Hope this helps!<br><br>Tom Ayers

Tom, only people with their eyes closed can raise eyebrows. We have no ALPHA males in the forum. The diverse backgrounds on this forum is a humbling, but rich resource. If you have an opinion, based on real use, then give it!!!!!!!!!!! The final argument with gear choice is "out there" been there,froze that.

Chris - Hehehe - and minds are like parachutes - they work best when open - thanks. I admit that I have not seen anyone flaming here, which is REALLY refreshing. One of the reasons I elected to join this discussion group...<br><br>OTOH, it's hard for me to keep from rambling on sometimes - "There I was, knee deep in grenade pins..."<br><br>I'm here to learn - get more ideas - share what I can. Neat buncha folks.<br><br>Tom

Quite possible. The AR-7 saga looks something like this, as I remember it......<br><br>Started under Armalite before they folded. Then to Charter Arms. Then to Charter Arms after a year without there being such a company. Then the second Charter Arms got new management, mostly the management from the first company by that name. Then to (IIRC) Hunter for the current production.<br><br>The second Charter Arms company had quality control issues under the initial management. Problem with finding out when a CA AR-7s were made is fun, becuase there is no quick-and-dirty way of telling- same makers' marks, and the serials picked up where the previous incarnation of CA left off. <br><br>

If you MUST go with web gear, then Ade is right- H-harness is the only way to go, unless you are able to stick a chiroprachtor in your ruck (I know you can't put a hot tub and young lady to walk on your back in there). Even better is the suspernders made by Blackhawk that take a hydration pouch- you can put other things in there, so long as it isn't too heavy and is mostly flat.<br><br>As for vests, I'm waiting to hear back from Blackhawk on the technical and economic possibilites of having them make a medic's vest out of blaze orange. If they can do that for a reasonable price, along with the pack that mounts onto the vest, then I'm going to have to give a lot of long and hard thought.<br><br>It also goes without saying that an ALICE pack needs a frame. Get the pack shelf as well, it lets you do thing pack wood or (with some expansion by some light woodworking) an injured comrade. <br><br>I actually do use one for my BIG pack, but it doesn't look particularly mil-spec these days. Dyed it black, then added red trim to it to make it look less military. It also gets covered by a red rain cover. Combined with grey BDU pants and normal shirts, with tan work boots, it looks decidely civilian, even with a holstered sidearm.

Hi Tom,<br><br>Rarely have I read a post which was simultaneously so rich with useful information and so maddeningly tantalizing with withheld information. <br><br>I really appreciated your valuable advice. I've been curious about ALICE gear for some time, but had been having a difficult time finding out the information I was wanting. Some of what you said was exactly what I wanted to know.<br><br>Ditto the canteen gear.<br><br>Ditto the BDUs.<br><br>So, I'm posting to beg you not to take your advice offline. <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The simple quick-releases on the shoulder straps are good (especially if you have them on BOTH straps) - another time I can explain WHY it's a good idea).<p><hr></blockquote><p>I had always assumed it was so a soldier could drop his pack and run for cover real fast when he started geting shot at. Is there another reason?<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The back band WILL fail on you, and when it does, those frame wings WILL tear the heck out of you right about at the kidneys. I'm talking peeing blood hurt... I can go on in detail, but it's a NASTY design, not versitile, and breaks your back with any significant load.<br><br>If you want to retain the (LARGE) ALICE bag <shrug> OK - just have it modified to attach to a commercial frame. I've got over 5 man-years on-the-ground-real-life firsthand experience with a large ALICE mounted on a Camp Trails Freighter frame - including over 30 Arctic Combat Equipment jumps (parachuting) *with that combo* - it works fine. The Freighter frame is still made and is a heck of a value - not sexy like some of the folks here prefer, but it's a real work horse at a very reasonable cost.<br><br>ALICE bags are not waterproofed <shrug> - that means you MUST use waterproof bags inside it - it's designed that way. I have NEVER seen a surplus one sold with all the bags it's SUPPOSED to have. Actually, the rubberized ripstop bags for an ALICE are very good; in MY experience, better than commercial couterparts. If you learn how to fasten them correctly (it's easy and I can do it with mittens on in the dark, half asleep) they are truly waterproof. They are NOT intended to be exposed to the environment outside the protection of the ALICE, so don't use, say, a large one, for an external carry of a sleeping back. You'll rip it up.<p><hr></blockquote><p>This is all exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I'm sure it will benefit many others, too. Thank you.<br><br>I was also wondering what your impression might be of the "MALICE" (Modified ALICE) gear at ustacticalsupply.com was. You can see their offered modifications here. They also offer three "prepackaged" versions for sale halfway down this page.<br><br>Are these modifications worth the trouble and cost? Are they a marketing gimmick, or might they be useful, but only for soldiers who have no choice but to carry ALICE gear, to make it more bearable? Or, do they actually (and adequately) adress your concerns? IOW, should I consider them a bad idea and forget about them, or are they worth further consideration for a civilian's use? I'd really like to have your opinion on this, if you don't mind too much.<br><br>Regarding the canteen gear:<br>Thanks for the heads up about the canteen cup. I have one of the old ones and was unaware of the wire handled ones. I'll start looking around. I also have both the canteen stove and an Esbit, but have not yet practiced with them. I appreciate your recommendation. Oh, and also about the fuels. That's good stuff to know.<br><br>Would you be willing to expound on what you said about "seed water"? You said we'd figure it out when we practiced, but I'd think that I might learn faster if I have some clue what it is I'm supposed to be figuring out. (please? )<br><br>I loved what you said about BDUs! I've been trying to find out more about them, and was about to post some questions to the forum.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Again, off-list, I can tell you what would be FAR better - and even keep you in your "military gear" theme. Some of what I can suggest will raise some eyebrows here, I suppose, but I am certain what pieces work well together, and my suggestions are cheaper than BDUs anyway.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Ooohh... Could you please not take this off list? Or, if you must, could you at least please email me with whatever it was you had to say on this topic? (Although, I'm sure I can't be the only person who will ever read this and want to know. )<br><br>The suggestion to work as an adult leader with a Scout Troop or Venturing Crew is good. I think I'm going to have to make time in my schedule to do that next year.<br><br>Thanks again. Oh, and kudos to your son for handing his first "real" situation well. Good for him.<br>

J. T.<br><br>Err, emm, hmmm - sheesh! I've spent too blame much time on the keyboard today already... how about a couple of quick answers for now?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>In reply to:<br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>The simple quick-releases on the shoulder straps are good (especially if you have them on BOTH straps) - another time I can explain WHY it's a good idea).<br><br><br><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>I had always assumed it was so a soldier could drop his pack and run for cover real fast when he started geting shot at. Is there another reason?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>There are lots of other situations - some very mundane, like sitting down and taking your pack off - where it's nice to do it that way. Stream crossings (keep your belly band unfastened) are another. I could go on... suffice that if you spend enuff time doing enuff things, it's mightly handy to be able to simply and easily "drop ruck".<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I was also wondering what your impression might be of the "MALICE" (Modified ALICE) gear at ustacticalsupply.com was. You can see their offered modifications here. They also offer three "prepackaged" versions for sale halfway down this page.<br><br>Are these modifications worth the trouble and cost? Are they a marketing gimmick, or might they be useful, but only for soldiers who have no choice but to carry ALICE gear, to make it more bearable? Or, do they actually (and adequately) adress your concerns? IOW, should I consider them a bad idea and forget about them, or are they worth further consideration for a civilian's use? I'd really like to have your opinion on this, if you don't mind too much.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Uh - gee, doesn't that first picture look like a BOULDER on that model's back??? Imagine if it was that full of REAL gear instead of fluff!!!<br><br>From the pictures, this does NOT look like issue ALICE in a whole bunch of details, nevermind the mods. I saw two things I liked and one that was interesting - I made up alternate shoulder straps VERY similar to those shown many years ago - still have them around somewhere. Even looks like the same color... I wonder... anyway, the straps probably work as-advertised, although you'd have to try em out to know for sure. No quick release visible, though <br><br>I think the modified kidney pad/back band/belly band - a.k.a "hip belt" is a good mod. Again, I did something VERY similar years ago (I could not always use my ALICE-Freighter frame combo, depending on command climate and phase of the moon). Kinda points out a design flaw in the ALICE frame concept, doesn't it? Those frame wings are murder... anyway,. something like that is passive and should work well. OTOH, they do not look to be contoured, and I wonder if ones hips would have to work against the side panels when walking - wears the legs out and chafes if that's the case. Uh, this is getting complicated unless you're familiar with a wide range of commercial frame/hip belt combos and how they are attached/move with each other. Hmmm - It looks like it reduces discomfort/injury from the frame wings, but I suspect it brings some new problems - maybe the idea is not fully grown up yet.<br><br>From what I could see in the pictures, the bottom attachment for a sleeping bag carrier looks great - I like that. OTOH, it could let you really load up the main compartment, and the ALICE frame is not fun with heavy loads.<br><br>My comments are kinda vapor, tho - have not actually seen these.<br><br>Honestly, if you want some kinda ALICE on some kinda military frame, the former frame (pre ALICE "Mountain frame") is a LOT more comfortable - I can show you a "naked" pic of one if you like. The ALICE bags can be modified to fit them, and they are ammenable to having good commercial suspension systems slightly modified and attached...<br><br>I guess you'd have to try out the mods - but it's pretty hard to make a silk bandanna from a used hanky, to mangle an old saw. And anything that raises the silhoutte of an ALICE - or widens it - removes some of the raison d'etre for using an ALICE, IMHO. The low silhoutte does not interfere with protruding headgear (helmet or full brimmed cap) - it sucks to have your ruck nudging your chin into your chest and your eyes onto the ground.<br><br>Gotta go - soup's on. I'll come back to this latter - probably not tonight. Hope I answered a couple of your questions, and remember that these are just MY opinions - take with appropriate amount of NaCl. And 'scuse my typos/spelling - in a hurry, as usual.<br><br>Regards, and Be Prepared! (...for any old thing)<br><br>Tom

Tom Ayers: I totally agree with jet. You have much to offer. Please do not withhold it from the rest of us. Thanks !!

Tom,<br><br>Read your last post with much interest. You may have saved my life.<br><br>A new frame for an ALICE back? Give yourself a Nobel prize. I have never had the pissing blood problem that you have, nor do I know anyone who has, but Lord, I [censored] sure don't want to. The new frame idea will be a lifesaver and probably much more effective than praying for the Army to catch up to the Marine Corps ( the fricking Marine Corps!!!!). Their new MOLLE packs are awesome.<br><br>I already knew about (and agree with you) the canteen cup and stove, but good info to pass on.<br><br>I think our disagreement regarding BDU's stems from the fact that you worked in the cold and I work in the heat. For the record, I wouldn't want to wear them in a cold weather environment either. I also hate the ankle tapes and always remove them.<br><br>I agree with whatshisname.... share!!! <br><br>Thank you, <br>Ade