I am 23 and a broke college student. Since Sept. 11th, I have been assembling my own Survival equipment. The list is below, and I am wondering what is next(besides food, i left all that out). Priority for equipment is important, as i have a limited budget. I got all my stuff through the internet, and a lot of it for relatively cheap prices.(IMSplus.com, RangerJoe's, Survivalsurplus, you name it, I have it bookmarked and I shop around for the best deals.) I am kinda a military buff, and have recently got into hunting. I know A LOT about military stuff and weapons, but not so much about civilian weapons. Specifically, what gear should i add next? With regard to firearms, I was thinking of a Ruger mini-14(too expensive tho), a simple .22, or a handgun. Opinions? Suggestions?<br><br><br>Clothing<br>q BDU’s (shirt and pants)<br>q BDU cap<br>Web Gear<br>q Medium Alice Pack w/ frame (camo)<br>q Butt Pack (camo)<br>q *“Y” suspenders<br>q Tactical Vest<br>q Pistol Belt<br>q Canteens w/ covers (2)<br>q Pouches (Shotgun shell, compass, utility, flashlight)<br>q Extra A.L.I.C.E. clips (4)<br>Cooking Etc.<br>q Trioxane Fuel Bars (36)<br>q Canteen cup<br>q Cup stove<br>q Ziploc freezer bags, 1 qt. (15)<br>q Water purification tablets (50)<br>Optics/Lighting<br>q Camo 10x25 Binoculars w/ case<br>q Anglehead flashlight (camo)<br>Tools<br>q Ka-Bar Night Raider Fighting Knife<br>q Leatherman tool<br>Survival<br>q *200’ of Para-cord<br>q Matchbox w/ 25 matches<br>q 250 wooden matches<br>q Windproof butane lighter<br>q “bic” butane lighter<br>q Disposable poncho<br>q First-Aid kit<br>q Survival (reflective) blanket<br>q 10 hr candles (2)<br>q <br>Firearms<br>q 12-gauge Remington 870 Express Magnum shotgun (bird & slug bbls)<br>q Butt-stock shell-holder (5 shells)<br>* In-Transit<br>

Well for starters what are you going to survive? You do not have a sleeping bag listed. This is critical. You cannot keep warm with a mini 14. I would take a deep breath, and research the subject. This site and it's many links is a wealth of information, as are the many books and videos. On your budget finding the best item for YOU the FIRST time is vital. We all have closets of bad past choices. Your best investment right now is time.

What kind of survival situation are you envisioning? I suspect you are thinking about an urban situation where conflicts might arise...In any event, the basics are still basics - like Chris says, sleeping bags are pretty important. I would vote for a better civilian backpack over the alice gear you are accumulating, but that is an area of intense personal preference.<br><br>If you hanker for a nice 22, I would recommend the AR-7 survival rifle - light, breaks down and disappears into the stock. And it is very effective. I forge the name of the current manufacturer, but it is currently marketed in local stores for about $150.

http://ubb.plainsmanscabin.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=4<br><br>Above is a link to a forum that discusses BOB and survival kits. You may want to surf on by and review some of the past topics for some ideas.<br><br>Military gear is green and durable. But it can also be unnessarily heavy. There are some civilian products that might be better choices depending on what your goals are. The first might be clothing. Camo means to blend in with your surroundings. BDU's with an ALICE pack on city streets is not camo. Kakhi slacks and a flannel shirt with a day pack or civi pack blends much better in an urban/suburban environ.<br><br>As one who has been playing around with survival kits for a few years, let me suggest that the more knowledge you have, the less gear you need. For the most part your BOB is complete except maybe for some snares and fishing gear.<br><br>Now I would suggest you begin to learn and study firemaking techniques and food & water gathering techinques. Also start investigating where you are going to Bug Out to. Ideally that location is where you have cached supplies and have a support organization of people to assist you in your survival.<br><br>You have taken the first and most common step in survival, the backpack survivalist. Soon your backpack will be too small and too heavy to carry all the gear you feel you have to have. Then you will become a vehicle survivalist, maybe with trailer in tow. At this point you will have all the gear possible to recreate a habitat and fend off legions of maurauding hordes. Soon after that you will come to the realization that regardless of how much firepower and ammo you have stored, you can only fight off so many hordes and you are better playing the run and hide game. Next you will slide into the Bug in rather than Bug out phase. <br><br>This is where you finally come to the realization that your primary residence is the best place to Bug Out to. That is because you already have shelter, food, heat, cooking, and a community to assist you. Once you reach the Bug In phase, then you start looking for a place that makes sense to Bug In. The elusive self sufficent retreat away from the urban sprawl with enough room to hunt and grow crops.<br><br>Some of use take the plunge and buy the acreage and move to a small farm outside of a small town. Solar power, well buckets, livestock raising, hide skinning, square foot gardening, bee keeping, and reduction of the weapons arsnel to as few calibers as possible that are better for gathering food instead of armed invasion.<br><br>As mentioned earlier, take a deep breath. Let it out slowly. 9/11 scared many people and they are trying to make up for "lost time". You have a decent BugOutBag, albeit heavy on the military side. Take some time to start gathering information about how to become more self sufficent and less reliant on the just in time inventory system of modern life.<br><br>Take some first aid courses. Join the local Orienteering club. Practise using the gear in your BOB in the back yard. If it doesn't work in perfect conditions with excellent lighting, weather, and no pressure, how will it work in the field? You don't have to trek to the far side of the world to test your gear. Pitch a tent in your backyard and try to get a fire started without using matches or a lighter. If it gets dark, wet, or boring, go back inside and watch TV with a Beer. Try again the next day until you can. Skills are more important the gear.<br><br>Good luck!

You might want to think about the " gray man look" provides good camo in the bush and doesn't stand out around people other wise your going to get to much unwanted attention. The military even uses it look at the spec ops guys in afghan except for those stupid shades they look like an other Afghan from a distance.

AR 7. Check out www.22world.com They categorize the AR 7 as a jamomatic. Mine certainly fits the category.

My first advise- dump the **** LBE. If you really need it, go with a civilian vest. Otherwise, mount a lot of stuff off your pack, particularly on the waistbelt. Most of the packs from Blackhawk can take ALICE gear on the waistbelt, as can a suprising number of civilian packs.<br><br>Unless you are a college student, say, 100 miles from Dushanabe (sp) and studying Uzbekistan culture and history, you won't need military gear. You will usually want to stick out like a sore thumb, so you can get pickup easier. In an urban situation, it might make thinks worse, becuase when the Gaurd gets called in, they might mistake you for (a) a deserter, or (b) a wack-job with a commando-complex. If you combine (b) with a gun, especially if there is a curfew, don't be suprised if a large number of gentlemen with automatic weapons are kinda grouchy towards you.<br><br>You also usually won't need a lot of weapons. If you are in a suburban situation, the shotgun is good if you are digging in at what is left of your residence. Urban, a handgun of suitable power and concealibility (asuming you have any and ALL liscences you need) is probably better, but at an evac camp you will have to turn it in. As a bush pilot, a Mini-14 is a poor choice, becuase it is both too powerful for small game and not powerful enough for big/dangerous game. <br><br>As a college student, if you are in the dorms, you need a 72-hour bag, that's it. Every college has evacuation plans, and most states have kept them current. The only issue is feeding them. And if you live off campus, well, figure it out as you go towards the college.<br><br>I've also got something to say about the Bug-Out-Bag phenominia. If you are talking a 72- or 120-hour Evacuation Bag, fine. Heck, every person in my family has a 72-bag, and most of us a 120-bag. I kept a stripped down 72-bag in my closet at college, with a second in my car. <br><br>However, a lot of BOB people are talking about a bag they grab as they try to escape from the city with thier SUVs by driving cross country over rubble, and making a speed run for the "country" and "living off the land". As one of the people living in the country, don't do it. We won't have the resources that are going toget at organised evac centers. And we don't want armed vagrants camping on our land, poaching and setting up questionable fire-lays. Stick to the area where help will be, becuase this isn't a movie.

First of all, pay very close attention to the posts from Cyberraven and Resqman. It's good advice.<br><br>Let me add a few things....<br>1. The "Y" harness sucks and should have never replaced the old "H" harness. Get one of those if you absolutely must have military gear.<br><br>2. GI anglehead flashlights suck. You can find something better. You should find something better.<br><br>3. Why do need a vest AND web gear (the harness)? <br><br>4. If you MUST have military style gear, get a large ALICE pack, not the medium. I have carried both, for many, many, many miles and will take a large anyday. They hold more, are more comfortable and they require a frame, thus preventing the folly attempting to carry the medium pack without one. How do I know this? Trust me, I know this.<br><br>5. Get rid of ALL of your ALICE clips. They are of the devil. I have scars (plural) from the !@#$%^ things. Replace them with cord or wire ties. Again, this is if you MUST have military style gear.<br><br>6. 36 Triox bars? How do fit all of the marshmallows in the ruck? <br><br>7. BDU's are great....if they fit. They also come colors other than camo. I like the khakis, not the desert camo, the khakis. They are are less likely to "spook the horses" and if you wear one pair in the field for long enough they become camoflaged (dirt, blood, grease, etc...).<br><br>8. As for the gun, I vote for the .22. Ammo is lightweight, cheap and ubitquitous (sp?). Anyone who may question it's stopping power obviously has not heard of a brilliant technique to double (shoot twice), triple (shoot three times) or even increase it more (you should have the idea by now).<br>I reccomend Taurus's new 62A. It holds 15 rounds, is fairly accurate and breaks down into two easily carried and hidden pieces.<br><br>That is all.<br>Ade

Awww ade! dont say that bout the angle head flashlights! i left (forgot bout) mine out in the dirt during monsoon season here in arizona, and a month later i came across it and flicked it on, batteries still had juice and it worked like a charm! its been my fave since and i wouldnt mind knowing what flashlight you had in mind. Besides the maglight, i dispise its weight but love the bashing attribute and quality

Thanks for all the info guys! ( and the constructive criticism).<br>Though I live in MN, the camo thing might not be a big deal(everyone hunts here) but what about a poncho, tent, other weapons etc.?<br>Any other suggestions?

<br><br>Sounds ominous! Are we talking about different manufacturers here? I still use one that I purchased in the early 60s, along with magazines, and it works quite well. I believe at least two subsequent firms have taken over the design and marketed later versions.<br><br>In a survival game hunting situation, I would tend to employ it as a single shot, anyway.

Hmmm... lots of good advice so far. Don't be too discouraged by it - I want to add my 2 cents worth to help you out a little bit.<br><br>First - give us a framework to work with so we have some context. You're saying BoB, but that covers a lot of territory. From where to where for how long for what - get the idea? Let's figure out the (anticipated) problem a little before we jump into the solution. It would really help us give you good, kindly advice.<br><br>Until/unless I hear a bit more, it's hard to guess what you're thinking. IIRC, here's what I heard so far: you're 23, in college in MN, like military gear a lot, money is tight, and you're not an experienced hunter. <br><br>What I am guessing is that you're not yet an experienced outdoorsman and that you started out with essentially no gear. Nothing wrong with that - you're thinking and doing - good for you!<br><br>Before I forget, here's some context for my opinions: I spent more years active duty US Army - combat arms, not support - than you have been alive; I have not been retired very long. I think I can speak from experience about some of your gear choices.<br><br>IMHO, there are a number of needful things missing from your list, and a lot of things that you do not *need* (it's OK to have lots of toys - usually better to take care of *needs* first, then toys <grin>)<br><br>So... just a few comments for now; more later if you like, and feel free to contact me off-list. <br><br>My only HUGE knee-jerk adverse reaction to your list is the ALICE - yucck!!! What a NASTY rucksack! And - as has been pointed out - the LARGE is the only one to consider, especially in your climate. The bag itself is OK, and as a generalization it is more durable than MOST commercial gear. The frame, OTOH, is a nightmare. It is a backbreaking, kidney gouging P*S. It was "designed" to reduce "heat rash" and sores from carrying loads in SE Asia and after we pulled out of Viet Nam, well, the politicos amputated equipment purchases and we had so many already in the pipeline that... it's STILL around.<br><br>It's really a horrible frame with a few good features. The simple quick-releases on the shoulder straps are good (especially if you have them on BOTH straps) - another time I can explain WHY it's a good idea). The back band WILL fail on you, and when it does, those frame wings WILL tear the heck out of you right about at the kidneys. I'm talking peeing blood hurt... I can go on in detail, but it's a NASTY design, not versitile, and breaks your back with any significant load.<br><br>If you want to retain the (LARGE) ALICE bag <shrug> OK - just have it modified to attach to a commercial frame. I've got over 5 man-years on-the-ground-real-life firsthand experience with a large ALICE mounted on a Camp Trails Freighter frame - including over 30 Arctic Combat Equipment jumps (parachuting) *with that combo* - it works fine. The Freighter frame is still made and is a heck of a value - not sexy like some of the folks here prefer, but it's a real work horse at a very reasonable cost.<br><br>ALICE bags are not waterproofed <shrug> - that means you MUST use waterproof bags inside it - it's designed that way. I have NEVER seen a surplus one sold with all the bags it's SUPPOSED to have. Actually, the rubberized ripstop bags for an ALICE are very good; in MY experience, better than commercial couterparts. If you learn how to fasten them correctly (it's easy and I can do it with mittens on in the dark, half asleep) they are truly waterproof. They are NOT intended to be exposed to the environment outside the protection of the ALICE, so don't use, say, a large one, for an external carry of a sleeping back. You'll rip it up.<br><br>The ALICE waterproof bags are nice; good enough to omit a pack cover if you like. (Commercial bags are not waterproof enough to omit a raincover anyway, so... and one does not need to be forced to spend a month out in the rain to figure out what works and what does not - one all-day rain will reveal all to you about what does NOT work)<br><br>Aside: There IS a tough waterproof Army bag that's OK for external use - and it's heavy. I cut one up and re-made it into a customized stuff sack for a selection of commercial sleeping bags many years ago - works fab - and I only use it if I suspect I'm going to put myself and my gear through some extraordinary tough conditions, because it's relatively heavy and inconvenient.<br><br>Bottom line - keep the LARGE ALICE bag if you must, but have it professionally modified to mate to a sturdy commercial frame. Leave the ALICE frame at home in your collection.<br><br>If your canteen cup is current issue (wire handles), keep it - it's a remendous piece of equipment ESPECIALLY if it's mated with the issue canteen and cover (with a bottle of iodine tablets in the little pouch provided). Very under rated pice of kit, that combo. If the canteen cup is the old-style with the flat metal handle... be careful. They burn you and they WILL collapse when you least want them to. Stick to the new style.<br><br>The canteens have one significant feature that can be a plus or minus, but is absolutely something you MUST learn to deal with in your climate: the small neck is a real PITA when the canteen freezes up. This is NOT trivial! You can deal with it, and perhaps the other advantages to the setup make it worth your while. There are an infinite number of ways to screw it up, though... and (sad to say) most GIs and ex GIs screw it up when they have a frozen canteen. At least do this: Buy a 20z wide mouth sports drink, consume the contents, and then convert it onto a neck bottle with some cord - cord and duct tape if you're not a knot wizard. In freezing temps, hang it around your neck under your outer garments and keep it full - it's "seed water". You'll figure it out when you practice (you ARE going to practice, right?)<br><br>I think the canteen cup stoves are not worth carrying - the only good thing about them is that they nest around an issue canteen. For less money you can get an Esbit. Watch The Sportsmans Guide website and you can get, say, two Esbit stoves, each full of fuel, for $5 - worth that for the fuel alone. However... a real stove is better, much better. If I give you suggestions now, there will be flames <grin>, so I'll hold off for now - just get an Esbit cheap for now and ditch the canteen cup stove. BTW, those surplus Trioxane bars? Know why they are surplus? They're out of date... short shelf life. If you already bought them, toss a box in for fire starters and leave the rest at home - there is a world of difference between fresh ones and dated ones. The Esbit fuel does not seem to have an expiration date that matters.<br><br><sigh> There's too much to nitpick on your current list - you're cirtically missing many things and have stuff that - while it's FINE to own - really is not important. Contact me off list if you want more feedback - I hate using this tiny window for lengthy replies. I'll be happy to comprehensively go over it with you off list, and I am NOT anti-military gear - I use a lot BY CHOICE - I can afford anything I want, can purchase brand-new military gear from the supply system - I think I'm pretty objective about it.<br><br>Oh - the BDUs - I have some reservations about those from a performance standpoint. 1) COTTON 2) COTTON 3) COTTON 4) No suspender loops 5) COTTON 6) @#%$@#@ slick flat nylon tape at ankle closures instead of round cord 7) COTTON....<br><br>I have two LARGE closets FULL of every kind of ISSUE BDUs made - all the issue patterns for all the climates. I DO NOT USE them if I have a choice - they are ONLY still around because I'm subject to recall until I get to a certain age and I have to purchase my own uniforms (not enlisted).<br><br>There are military clothes that perform extremely well. I use them. BDUs are OK in warm places, especially if have the "freedom" to modify HOW you wear them (like pulling the trouser legs up to ventilate). You can spend a lot of money trying to make them more water resistent, but it's a waste of money. They're cotton, and they suck when they get wet.<br><br>Again, off-list, I can tell you what would be FAR better - and even keep you in your "military gear" theme. Some of what I can suggest will raise some eyebrows here, I suppose, but I am certain what pieces work well together, and my suggestions are cheaper than BDUs anyway.<br><br>Last item: Hold off on your firearms until you get more important things taken care of. Go buy a case of ammo for your shotgun if you like, but hold off - there are a LOT of issues to consider, and you have more needful things. Firearms are a whole 'nother topic; contact me off list if you like. I like guns; have lots of them. But unless you've (SAFELY) literally grown up with firearms, used them a lot, I'd move them way down the list. Your shotgun is fine; keep it and enjoy using it. I'm more concerned about you having needed equipment and learning how to use it.<br><br>Which brings up a suggestion: Find an ACTIVE Scout Troop or (better) Venturing Crew that camps out of packs (not cars) at least once a month and join it as an Adult Leader - sets you back $7.00 Then go on all the campouts with them. You'll learn and practice a LOT of basics and all it costs is time (most Troops don't even charge the Adults for campout food - a thought for "broke college students"). Pretty cheap training; they PROBABLY won't teach you anything "bad" or "wrong", it's FUN, you'll make some great friends, and it gives something important back to your community. A real good deal...<br><br>Well, that's too many bites of elephant for now. I hope this gives you some food for thought. I think you're getting terriffic advice from everyone here, and if you want to pursue any of this with me here or off-list, have at it!<br><br>PostScript: When I mentioned the cheap "Esbit" stoves - I should have clarified - a "real" Esbit runs around $10, and the fuel tablets are a little under a buck each. The inexpensive stoves are knockoffs, but work fine - even the Boy Scouts sell one. I bought a bunch of the knock-off ones a coupla years back from The Sportsmans Guide - it was 2 / 5$ IIRC - just on spec. They work well enough - better with a HD Aluminum foil windscreen around them - altho the heat tabs are smaller than genuine Esbits, I think they are the same hexamine type (remember getting those surplus tubes of them decades ago) and the box is FULL of them.<br><br>Anyway, I had everyone toss one in their "Be Prepared" packs as an "extra" bit of kit to try out when we got around to it.<br><br>Eldest son (17 at the time) had a REAL occasion to use the cheap knockoff Esbit in his day pack in The Flattops Wilderness Area in winter conditions and it was "good enough" - he was glad to have it and re-stocked the fuel as soon as we got back. (And I was VERY proud of him for doing everthing right in the situation - you THINK they know what to do, you have fun practises, but there's always "Dad's worries" lurking around...)<br><br>Hope this helps!<br><br>Tom Ayers

Tom, only people with their eyes closed can raise eyebrows. We have no ALPHA males in the forum. The diverse backgrounds on this forum is a humbling, but rich resource. If you have an opinion, based on real use, then give it!!!!!!!!!!! The final argument with gear choice is "out there" been there,froze that.

Chris - Hehehe - and minds are like parachutes - they work best when open - thanks. I admit that I have not seen anyone flaming here, which is REALLY refreshing. One of the reasons I elected to join this discussion group...<br><br>OTOH, it's hard for me to keep from rambling on sometimes - "There I was, knee deep in grenade pins..."<br><br>I'm here to learn - get more ideas - share what I can. Neat buncha folks.<br><br>Tom

Quite possible. The AR-7 saga looks something like this, as I remember it......<br><br>Started under Armalite before they folded. Then to Charter Arms. Then to Charter Arms after a year without there being such a company. Then the second Charter Arms got new management, mostly the management from the first company by that name. Then to (IIRC) Hunter for the current production.<br><br>The second Charter Arms company had quality control issues under the initial management. Problem with finding out when a CA AR-7s were made is fun, becuase there is no quick-and-dirty way of telling- same makers' marks, and the serials picked up where the previous incarnation of CA left off. <br><br>

If you MUST go with web gear, then Ade is right- H-harness is the only way to go, unless you are able to stick a chiroprachtor in your ruck (I know you can't put a hot tub and young lady to walk on your back in there). Even better is the suspernders made by Blackhawk that take a hydration pouch- you can put other things in there, so long as it isn't too heavy and is mostly flat.<br><br>As for vests, I'm waiting to hear back from Blackhawk on the technical and economic possibilites of having them make a medic's vest out of blaze orange. If they can do that for a reasonable price, along with the pack that mounts onto the vest, then I'm going to have to give a lot of long and hard thought.<br><br>It also goes without saying that an ALICE pack needs a frame. Get the pack shelf as well, it lets you do thing pack wood or (with some expansion by some light woodworking) an injured comrade. <br><br>I actually do use one for my BIG pack, but it doesn't look particularly mil-spec these days. Dyed it black, then added red trim to it to make it look less military. It also gets covered by a red rain cover. Combined with grey BDU pants and normal shirts, with tan work boots, it looks decidely civilian, even with a holstered sidearm.

Hi Tom,<br><br>Rarely have I read a post which was simultaneously so rich with useful information and so maddeningly tantalizing with withheld information. <br><br>I really appreciated your valuable advice. I've been curious about ALICE gear for some time, but had been having a difficult time finding out the information I was wanting. Some of what you said was exactly what I wanted to know.<br><br>Ditto the canteen gear.<br><br>Ditto the BDUs.<br><br>So, I'm posting to beg you not to take your advice offline. <blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The simple quick-releases on the shoulder straps are good (especially if you have them on BOTH straps) - another time I can explain WHY it's a good idea).<p><hr></blockquote><p>I had always assumed it was so a soldier could drop his pack and run for cover real fast when he started geting shot at. Is there another reason?<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>The back band WILL fail on you, and when it does, those frame wings WILL tear the heck out of you right about at the kidneys. I'm talking peeing blood hurt... I can go on in detail, but it's a NASTY design, not versitile, and breaks your back with any significant load.<br><br>If you want to retain the (LARGE) ALICE bag <shrug> OK - just have it modified to attach to a commercial frame. I've got over 5 man-years on-the-ground-real-life firsthand experience with a large ALICE mounted on a Camp Trails Freighter frame - including over 30 Arctic Combat Equipment jumps (parachuting) *with that combo* - it works fine. The Freighter frame is still made and is a heck of a value - not sexy like some of the folks here prefer, but it's a real work horse at a very reasonable cost.<br><br>ALICE bags are not waterproofed <shrug> - that means you MUST use waterproof bags inside it - it's designed that way. I have NEVER seen a surplus one sold with all the bags it's SUPPOSED to have. Actually, the rubberized ripstop bags for an ALICE are very good; in MY experience, better than commercial couterparts. If you learn how to fasten them correctly (it's easy and I can do it with mittens on in the dark, half asleep) they are truly waterproof. They are NOT intended to be exposed to the environment outside the protection of the ALICE, so don't use, say, a large one, for an external carry of a sleeping back. You'll rip it up.<p><hr></blockquote><p>This is all exactly the kind of information I was looking for. I'm sure it will benefit many others, too. Thank you.<br><br>I was also wondering what your impression might be of the "MALICE" (Modified ALICE) gear at ustacticalsupply.com was. You can see their offered modifications here. They also offer three "prepackaged" versions for sale halfway down this page.<br><br>Are these modifications worth the trouble and cost? Are they a marketing gimmick, or might they be useful, but only for soldiers who have no choice but to carry ALICE gear, to make it more bearable? Or, do they actually (and adequately) adress your concerns? IOW, should I consider them a bad idea and forget about them, or are they worth further consideration for a civilian's use? I'd really like to have your opinion on this, if you don't mind too much.<br><br>Regarding the canteen gear:<br>Thanks for the heads up about the canteen cup. I have one of the old ones and was unaware of the wire handled ones. I'll start looking around. I also have both the canteen stove and an Esbit, but have not yet practiced with them. I appreciate your recommendation. Oh, and also about the fuels. That's good stuff to know.<br><br>Would you be willing to expound on what you said about "seed water"? You said we'd figure it out when we practiced, but I'd think that I might learn faster if I have some clue what it is I'm supposed to be figuring out. (please? )<br><br>I loved what you said about BDUs! I've been trying to find out more about them, and was about to post some questions to the forum.<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>Again, off-list, I can tell you what would be FAR better - and even keep you in your "military gear" theme. Some of what I can suggest will raise some eyebrows here, I suppose, but I am certain what pieces work well together, and my suggestions are cheaper than BDUs anyway.<p><hr></blockquote><p>Ooohh... Could you please not take this off list? Or, if you must, could you at least please email me with whatever it was you had to say on this topic? (Although, I'm sure I can't be the only person who will ever read this and want to know. )<br><br>The suggestion to work as an adult leader with a Scout Troop or Venturing Crew is good. I think I'm going to have to make time in my schedule to do that next year.<br><br>Thanks again. Oh, and kudos to your son for handing his first "real" situation well. Good for him.<br>

J. T.<br><br>Err, emm, hmmm - sheesh! I've spent too blame much time on the keyboard today already... how about a couple of quick answers for now?<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>In reply to:<br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>The simple quick-releases on the shoulder straps are good (especially if you have them on BOTH straps) - another time I can explain WHY it's a good idea).<br><br><br><br>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br><br>I had always assumed it was so a soldier could drop his pack and run for cover real fast when he started geting shot at. Is there another reason?<p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>There are lots of other situations - some very mundane, like sitting down and taking your pack off - where it's nice to do it that way. Stream crossings (keep your belly band unfastened) are another. I could go on... suffice that if you spend enuff time doing enuff things, it's mightly handy to be able to simply and easily "drop ruck".<br><br><blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr><p>I was also wondering what your impression might be of the "MALICE" (Modified ALICE) gear at ustacticalsupply.com was. You can see their offered modifications here. They also offer three "prepackaged" versions for sale halfway down this page.<br><br>Are these modifications worth the trouble and cost? Are they a marketing gimmick, or might they be useful, but only for soldiers who have no choice but to carry ALICE gear, to make it more bearable? Or, do they actually (and adequately) adress your concerns? IOW, should I consider them a bad idea and forget about them, or are they worth further consideration for a civilian's use? I'd really like to have your opinion on this, if you don't mind too much.<br><p><hr></blockquote><p><br><br>Uh - gee, doesn't that first picture look like a BOULDER on that model's back??? Imagine if it was that full of REAL gear instead of fluff!!!<br><br>From the pictures, this does NOT look like issue ALICE in a whole bunch of details, nevermind the mods. I saw two things I liked and one that was interesting - I made up alternate shoulder straps VERY similar to those shown many years ago - still have them around somewhere. Even looks like the same color... I wonder... anyway, the straps probably work as-advertised, although you'd have to try em out to know for sure. No quick release visible, though <br><br>I think the modified kidney pad/back band/belly band - a.k.a "hip belt" is a good mod. Again, I did something VERY similar years ago (I could not always use my ALICE-Freighter frame combo, depending on command climate and phase of the moon). Kinda points out a design flaw in the ALICE frame concept, doesn't it? Those frame wings are murder... anyway,. something like that is passive and should work well. OTOH, they do not look to be contoured, and I wonder if ones hips would have to work against the side panels when walking - wears the legs out and chafes if that's the case. Uh, this is getting complicated unless you're familiar with a wide range of commercial frame/hip belt combos and how they are attached/move with each other. Hmmm - It looks like it reduces discomfort/injury from the frame wings, but I suspect it brings some new problems - maybe the idea is not fully grown up yet.<br><br>From what I could see in the pictures, the bottom attachment for a sleeping bag carrier looks great - I like that. OTOH, it could let you really load up the main compartment, and the ALICE frame is not fun with heavy loads.<br><br>My comments are kinda vapor, tho - have not actually seen these.<br><br>Honestly, if you want some kinda ALICE on some kinda military frame, the former frame (pre ALICE "Mountain frame") is a LOT more comfortable - I can show you a "naked" pic of one if you like. The ALICE bags can be modified to fit them, and they are ammenable to having good commercial suspension systems slightly modified and attached...<br><br>I guess you'd have to try out the mods - but it's pretty hard to make a silk bandanna from a used hanky, to mangle an old saw. And anything that raises the silhoutte of an ALICE - or widens it - removes some of the raison d'etre for using an ALICE, IMHO. The low silhoutte does not interfere with protruding headgear (helmet or full brimmed cap) - it sucks to have your ruck nudging your chin into your chest and your eyes onto the ground.<br><br>Gotta go - soup's on. I'll come back to this latter - probably not tonight. Hope I answered a couple of your questions, and remember that these are just MY opinions - take with appropriate amount of NaCl. And 'scuse my typos/spelling - in a hurry, as usual.<br><br>Regards, and Be Prepared! (...for any old thing)<br><br>Tom

Tom Ayers: I totally agree with jet. You have much to offer. Please do not withhold it from the rest of us. Thanks !!

Tom,<br><br>Read your last post with much interest. You may have saved my life.<br><br>A new frame for an ALICE back? Give yourself a Nobel prize. I have never had the pissing blood problem that you have, nor do I know anyone who has, but Lord, I [censored] sure don't want to. The new frame idea will be a lifesaver and probably much more effective than praying for the Army to catch up to the Marine Corps ( the fricking Marine Corps!!!!). Their new MOLLE packs are awesome.<br><br>I already knew about (and agree with you) the canteen cup and stove, but good info to pass on.<br><br>I think our disagreement regarding BDU's stems from the fact that you worked in the cold and I work in the heat. For the record, I wouldn't want to wear them in a cold weather environment either. I also hate the ankle tapes and always remove them.<br><br>I agree with whatshisname.... share!!! <br><br>Thank you, <br>Ade

Actually, I think the Army uses the same pack. I bought an Army CFP-90 (Combat Field Pack) about a month ago, at is looks exactly like the pictures of the MOLLE pack on the Marines website.<br><br>It's an interesting piece of equipment. I use the smaller patrol pack piece all the time on day hikes. I haven't had a chance to put the full ensemble to the test on an extended hike, but it seems to have a very modern design and lots of room.

Ade, J.T., et al -<br><br>Yeah, the new USMC packs look good. I've seen us (Army) with new packs fielded in the past; used some decent ones, but the ALICE stays in mass use...<br><br>You are absolutely ke-rect - I have a cold weather bias. If not in the desert or high elevation, summers are pretty fat in most of North America - easy living. For the record, BDUs worked fine for me in East Africa (did not go on foot to high elevation, tho - pretty much sea-level and near sea-level) They worked fine for me when they stayed dry, no matter where I was. And they are nice in many ways - pretty rugged and comfy. A long ways from the old fatigues I wore in... the old days. Still - they can be a dangerous beast even in Georgia - get wet, get windy, and watch out! What makes them good in hot (dry) weather - cotton - is what makes them no good in wet cold conditions - cotton. Hmmm... maybe if they were made out of silk... nah! <grin><br><br> [color:red] Since posting this, Brian's comment caused me to closely inspect my closets. Much to my chagrin, all my Desert Camo BDUs - 6 color and 3 color - are 50-50 nyco. I will try these out in cold/wet and post the results. I just assumed... these are my oldest BDUs; ALL my Woodland BDUs, including BDUs purchased as recently as 3 years ago, are cotton, so I was partially wrong . Natick website is down, so it will take me a bit to get the straight scoop on the LATEST BDU fabric(s). From what Brian posted, I have hopes that they are now all nyco and MAYBE even some are Quarpel treated - that would be awesome. TGA </font color=red><br><br>I hate the official BSA trousers as well - feel exactly like the old permanent press fatigues - "plasticy" is the best I can describe - go figure - same materiel (50-50 cotton-poly). Plus the worthless "cargo pockets", elastic waist band, etc - some genius in Irvine Texas who wears 'em around the office came up with them, I reckon. (Did I mention that they are EXPENSIVE? All six peeps in my family -wife, sons, dau, and self - are active in BSA, and last I checked, I'm paying the bills...)<br><br>Ahem. Off soapbox. Sorry.<br><br>Have you, or anyone else, examined and used the commercial "BDUs" made from "NyCo"? IIRC, they are a nylon-cotton blend... if otherwise built like the real McCoy, these might be quite the ticket. I have only seen the adverts, so I'm highly curious to hear what they are like from someone who has seen/used them. Not curious enough to buy any just yet - still have plenty of "good stuff" in use <grin>.<br><br>I cannot take credit for swapping an ALICE onto a good commercial frame, although if I do say so myself, I did a pretty darned good implementation. Details are a boring "war story" kind of thing. <br><br>Cotton BDUs are ok in hot weather with little or no chance for hypothermic conditions to set in - and the hot weather ones are a tad better than the temperate ones for that.<br><br>In fall and early winter, I really like the (now obsolete) issue wool trousers, but the lack of cargo pockets, difficulty in getting replacements, and other factors drive me to only wear them for "casual" events - local day trips, local camping with the Scouts, that sort of thing. I like them a lot, but... they're not "serious" gear for me. Just nice...<br><br>Field trousers are da bomb; a whole 'nother enchilada. There are button-in liners for them as well, although I almost NEVER used / use them - too warm for me even most of the time in Central Alaska. I carried them in my pack in the winter anyway - sometimes I used them. Quilted, not frieze - light and compressible. Too bad the newly manufactured field trou are in woodland camo instead of OD, tho. Belt for belt gadgets and suspenders for holding up the pants without cinching up the belt - 'sides, I often walk around fully "vented", and cannot do that without suspenders. The issue suspenders, hooked into the provided loops, are the way to go, although in recent years there have been improperly assembled ones from wherever they are made - a moderately intelligent chimpanzee can figure out how to re-assemble correctly. Shirts, sweaters, etc. go OVER the suspenders, not under. Trust me...<br><br>Ever see someone accidentally defecate on their suspenders and unknowingly hitch everything back up, trapping the "job" between the suspenders and the back? I have (seen it), more than once - yuck! Strange things happen when one is truly dead beat whipped zonked out tired... anyway, you can't do that with the issue suspenders - they stay on you; you just slip the hooks loose to drop trou for any reason.<br><br>OG shirts (80-20 Wool-nylon tight weave and thick) are great as a layer. Either over a sweater (the issue one is fine, or poly-p, or whatever) -if you sized the shirt right - or simply by itself. There are commercial equivalents - for around ten times the cost (really!).<br><br>Here's a REALLY odd one: Jungle shirts make a great wind shirt. Often the next layer over my OG shirt; sometimes even as an outer layer (in a wind and light drizzle role). Ripstop cotton poplin; I cannot for the life of me understand why they work so well - they're cotton; they SHOULDN'T work, but they do... Heck, this was a JUNGLE shirt! I stumbled onto this years ago, experimenting with various combinations for field wear. Availability of the real McCoy is erratic, but brand new sets are available for the patient. Have not seen the "newly made" ones that are supposedly the same, just not paid for by our rich uncle, so I cannot comment on them. Oh - yes, I have tried every BDU blouse in the same role - does not work the same. Dunno what is different. MAYBE the jungle fatigues were made with long staple cotton? I'm just guessing here - they are thin and about as wind-tight as nylon, but nicer to the touch.<br><br>While I'm on that topic - the matching Jungle fatigue trousers are better than any BDU for hot weather comfort. OD ripstop cotton poplin... hope you know what I'm talking about. Dunno about "tiger stripes" - if same material, would be fine.<br><br>Ummm, where was I? Oh - best bargain on the market - new M1951 parkas with hoods and liners for under $50. Understand that these are meant to be an outer layer, not a one-layer "stay-puffed-marshmallow-man" coat. Only native garments come close, and they are bulkier, heavier, and not as versitile - we actually hit a home run with that bit of gear (same era as the field trousers, oddly enough). Don't bother with used ones, as new ones are so cheaply available. There are things to learn about how to most effectively use them - as I say, they are versitile. BTW, the frieze liners went out a long time ago - possible a little warmer than the quilted, but WAY too heavy and bulky. There ARE some good commercial parka systems out there - NOT cheap - and still nothing I would be as willing to stake my life on as these old warhorses. Last note: Do NOT listen to the surplus dealers that tell you - "These are large - get 'em a couple sizes small" -- WRONG!!! If you wear a large coat, get a large parka - it's a LOOSE OUTER garment shell component to a layered system. You miss the entire point if you get one that fits nice over your t-shirt... it's too ugly looking for fashion statements, anyway <grin>.<br><br>A knit cap is a knit cap - I carry two: one on my head or in my parka pocket and one in my ruck or day pack. If I lose one, it's not a disaster - and it is soooo nice to pull a fresh (DRY) one on at bedtime, letting the other one air out and either dry or sublime. Orange is a tasteful color for some things, so my spare is always orange. If I'm not out in hunting season, dark blue for the daytime one. There are fancy ones, but about anything works.<br><br>I do not like, nor use face masks. I tunnel the parka hood down to a snorkel slit if I need to - that works great and it's easier to check for frostbite. On rare occasions I've used a scarf, and the issue one is tubular - it can be used as a cap. Don't think I've carried one for years, tho. No need.<br><br>Trigger finger mittens and inserts are good if it's not extremely cold - use the dummy cords. New ones frequently available. Older ones had more leather than the newer ones, but I cannot tell any performance difference. Size for anti-contact gloves inside - silk is nice; poly-p is OK, too, and wool is OK.<br><br>Arctic Mittens are fabulous. Actually, these are more correctly "gauntlets", I suppose - nearly reach to your elbows. They should be either on your hands or snapped together behind you - and always on the dummy cords. Again, these are intended to be best used as an outer (insulated) layer in a layerd system - at least wear TF mitten inserts inside them. (And no, the faux fur/pile on the back is NOT for wiping snot off your face, LoL!)<br><br>Notice I have not mentioned M65 Field Jackets... Too heavy, bulky, and not water repellant enough. The liner is good to carry; it can also button into the parka as another fixed layer in addition to the parka liner if you need it. The jacket is OK, just not worth the bulk, weight, and other drawbacks. Probably the only chic thing to waer (besides BDUs) these days, but not part of my kit. I have better commercial jackets for that sort of thing, and the parka is all-around better anyway.<br><br>Military footgear is so-so. Combat boots are made on good lasts, but the newer ones have too hard a sole (durability concerns). Many variations - I prefer desert boots most of the year; jungle boots never were kind to my feet. None of those are warm, of course. The most comfortable issue cold wx foot gear I ever used is not suitable for any but the driest of conditions - so called "mukluks" - they were intended for flight line use only. Sized a little large, felt insole, then a proper size felt insert (for my foot), then a (larger) sized insert to fit the "boot". Carry spare sets of insoles and inserts... Real (quality) native mukluks are far superior IF they are made with the right combos.<br><br>VB boots - <sigh> - they're a military thing. Ones that test out OK (at least an annual test) are very warm. The logistics of them make me NOT recommend them for personal use. Bad ones will feel just as warm as good ones when you first put them on. Then, if it's cold enough/you're in them long enough - you get frostbite. Plus, immersion foot is a reality with extended use. You ain't suffered till you've walked for days and days with immersion foot <wince>. Like I said, strictly military use; end of story.<br><br>Footgear is an area where there are truly many more suitable items available commercially. I'm sure anyone experienced here can offer as good or better advice as I can. Many peeps are very fond of Herman Survivors - I'm dubious of them in EXTREME cold, but I believe they are great for most cold weather conditions. I still use Sorrels a lot - kindy floppy; no ankle support, a bit heavy, and sometimes sock-eaters, but they are warm and I can walk, ski, and snowshoe in them. (All mine have an extra insole for insulation form the ground - which alters the size required). If out for more than a day, I carry a spare set of felt inserts and insoles. I have some medium-tech footgear, too, up to and including fancy double-boots for climbing above the snowline (very specialized use; custom fit, they suck for approach walking and I HATE plastic climbing boots, so mine are leather).<br><br>Boots have to fit... what fits me may be a disaster for you. I will NOT mail-order boots. Gotta try em on. Also, for little cost, a competent cobbler will custom-fit boots with good leather outers - it is AMAZING what they can do to eliminate tight spots in other-wise perfect boots. Generally speaking, I cannot wear European-made boots without that sort of adjusting... I pretty much stick to North American made, anyway <shrug>. Lots of decent boots these days - light, warm, tough - you name it, it's available. However, I have not seen any good cold weather ones for less than around $80 - usually the good ones run much higher than that, and the cheaper ones seem to have "fatal" flaws, like thin spots in the insulation over the toes, mediocre fit, etc. Also, peeps vary hugely in what is an acceptable level of discomfort in foot temps - I am a lot more tolerant of cold feet than most people I know, and yet I know others who are fine in footgear that I KNOW I would get cold weather injuries in.<br><br>BTW, one thing that many folks overlook most of the year is a "camp shoe" - just some cheap lightweight sorta sneaker that doubles as wading shoes when fording streams/rivers. Really kind to your feet to pull on dry socks and putter around the camp, and usually quicker to slip on/off for that unexpected "midnight run". I prefer them to fit comfortably over normal (heavy) socks when my feet are all pumped up from walking all day - usually winds up a size bigger than I would get otherwise. Booties with soles for winter, of course.<br><br>I think I have strayed way off BoB, but then again... there are levels of BoB gear. We have stages of it, and for the most part it's the stages of stuff we use for various outings anyway - and that means we have habits from using the same gear over and over again. I know where all my stuff is, all the time - habit - I never need to turn a light on to find something or put something away.<br><br>I've been stupid enough to leave camp in bad country without even my "Be Prepared" pack - not once, but twice! (Well, actually, I had it one of those times, but it got "consumed" in the course of events - long story, and totaly avoidable if I had been thinking). I made it thru the ordeals (obviously) - one time was serious and the other time was REALLY serious. I had stuff on me - pockets and such - things I use too often to not have on me - more habits. The REALLY serious time, I was not dressed correctly - well above treeline in the interior - and I was darned lucky to survive that. Hehehe - I even almost fell off a several hundered foot cliff. The only thing I did right was stay alive. I like to think I learned a lot from those mistakes... and all the others I've made that were, objectively, not so serious. Perils of arrogant youth, I suppose.<br><br>Point is, regularly use whatever you're gonna bet your life on. Like BDUs - if that's what you've got, well, learn its good and bad points and know how to get what you need out of your gear anytime of the year. No substitute for practice, eh?<br><br>Apologize for the long-winded reply and wandering around - and typos. Time to log and get some real life things done; machining up some new gadgets to try out before I forget about it...<br><br>Sounds like you know what you're doing, anyway - got any hot tips on gear and techniques? I'm in a perpetual "learning mode"...<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom<br><br><br>

I noticed you were interested in web gear. Our search and rescue team uses a pack made for wildland firefighters. It is a web gear type pack made by ThePack Shack. It is sold by www.sarcamp.com and firecache.com The pack has suited our needs well since it can be configured many ways.

I couldn't get either of those sites to come up...???..

Actually, there are differences, most notably in the suspension, from what I understand. <br><br>The CFP-90 is concentional internal frame, with the de riguer detachable "daypack" that makes a great 24-hour pack. It rides on shoulder straps and a belt.<br><br>The big USMC MOLLE pack is, from what I can find, is intended to be suspended from thier new LBV via some fancy voodoo interface plate. Now I could be completely wrong here, and if anyone can shed some light on it, please do. What I do know is that it looks like there is a semi-external frame that extends ub, behind the head. OK, so it can be easily used as an improvised head imobilizer, but it looks like it is too high and to rigid to be used in a combat situation with a helmet in a prone position (which appears typical of the military R&D people who came up with the reg that you can't have a spork in an MRE becuase the bag might be punctured by the tines if run over by an armoured vehilce). But that's just my opinion based off of having seen pictures of it.

Try this http://www.sarcamp.com/master.htm and http://www.firecache.com

The pack straps on US Tactical look a lot like those from Eagle and Blackhawk, as well. (I have the BH on my pack, my brother has Eagles on his- poor sucker, BH is the same quality and designs as Eagle, but half the cost most of the time)<br><br>You've mentioned your Freighter frame. Is this anything like the old Ramflex frame that US Cav used to carry before they turned into a giftshop?

Tom, you should consider writing these tips in a more formal document for permenanr posting on the site instead of a collection of forum threads.

Tom wrote:<br>>>>I hate the official BSA trousers as well - ...<<<<br><br>Have you found an alternative? <br><br>I wear the shorts during the summer but only whil traveling and to meals. <br><br>In the spring and fall I wear jeans, which are allowed but not stylish or perhaps "consistent" would be a better word. I love the feel of jeans becasue that's what I grew up wearing. But I know they are not the best gear for the outdoors.<br><br>Right now I'm mainly "car" camping. But as my son grows older, we'll do more "high adventure" camping where the right gear choices are more important.<br><br>I'd love to find an alternative pair of pants to wear with my uniform. Or an alternative pair of shorts that are close enough in appearance that folks would not notice they weren't BSA approved.<br><br>

Ron,<br><br>Nice leads on the firefighter web pack. It looks really interesting. I used to do structural work in a private brigade. Being almost all internal work, we never wore anything on our backs but our air bottles. It looks like it might work nicely as a pack for recreational hiking; keep your survival basics in the fanny pack portion and extra niceties in the pack proper. Thanks.

It is a very versatile pack. All the components attach via 1" fastex buckles. Ours use the web gear with a hydration system attached then a larger "24hr. pack" on top of that. I have found that with my limited sewing skills and some extra 1" buckles I can attach almost any thing I want to the gear.

Now they work...Thanks!!!

Willie,<br><br>Nothing perfect <grin>. If you can locate surplus US OG trousers (wool), they work fine and made you look like a VERY experienced Scouter - I think the old time dress trousers looked exactly the same (were the same?). Those look like part of a snazzy class A. New and used are available in all the various sizes, but it may take a little patience. I think the used ones run a bit one the small side from listed size, so you may want to err on the large side when sizing them.<br><br>Althoug BSA calls the new trousers "action fit", I reckon it's for office action - look at the difference between properly fitted modern utility uniforms and these. Because of that, it's hard to get from here to there...<br><br>I am aware that some troops specify surplus uniform trousers (usually BDUs) as Class A - certainly within the equipment tradition of BSA, although very much against the grain from a "Official BSA" point of view. I think I understand why - just wish they would come up with a better trouser at a less costly price. The pants are not all bad - an improvement over the previous ones. But cotton-poly is not treated cotton-nylon (altho it IS "permanent press"), and those so-called cargo pockets are a joke - just patch pockets.<br><br>The cargo pockets on BSA pants ought to be sized at least large enough to comfortably hold a BSA Handbook... which also makes them handy for other things. I can't comfortably get a GEM in these (There's a thought - a GEM version of the Scout Handbook!)<br><br>And the elastic waistband - sheesh! Is that ever uncomfortable! Pull tabs are simpler and more reliable.<br><br>The reinforcement is fine and they are at least not confining in cut, so as I say, not terrible at all - just disappointingly less than they could be.<br><br>I use OD Field Trousers on outings and they sorta look right - from a distance. Right color, "wrong" shape (baggy). Obviously the pre-BDU fatigue trousers (cotton) would look OK, but I do not see any advantage to them over the official pants.<br><br>Maybe someone else can chime in here? I'm not really an expert on this topic.<br><br>Tom

having used both the CFP-90 and the Molle pack I can tell you that while similar in general appearance. That is the only thing the same. The CFP-90 also known as a "vector" pack is a one piece unit not counting the small patrol pack that is included. The Molle pack would be more correctly refered to as the Molle system as it is a Modular system that can be tailored to the needs of the user. It has a main pack a detachable sleeping bag compartment and various magazine pouches as well as radio and multi-purpose utility pouches. It does also include a updated version of the CFP-90's Patrol pack ( 1000% better). The Molle pack also has integrated web gear that remains on the user when the main pack is dropped using a quick release system similar to the older alice pack's. Anyway I tend to run on but that covers the main points if you need any more info I would be glad to help<br><br>Brian

This post is starting to digress from a survival POV so I'll post my complte reply on the Campfire forum under "Scout Dress."<br><br>

Tom, I can get my hands on a large ALICE pack for a good price (free)...what modifications are required to attach it to the Camp Trails frame??? (Once again you have come up with a great idea!!!)

the end?

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