NEF makes a .45/.410 long gun in their "Survivor" series, there are also several "derringer" type hundguns made in the .45/.410, the American Derringer Model 6 for one.
gino <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You can only shoot the 45LC in the new M6 Scout Pistol/Carbine
Not the Rifle!
The Thunder 5 is another Pistol that can shoot both.

I have a M6 Scout Rifle in 22 Hornet/.410 and I love it.
I also love my Thunder 5.
I plane on getting one of the new M6 Scout Pistol/Carbine as soon as possible. I just hope they have some place to store the 'De-rotator'/'Choke' IN the rifle.
The stupid thing is, that if you reverse the order when putting the longer barrel and stock on...You have just committed a FELONY!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What STUPID 'laws' we live under...

Jamesraykenney:

Darn!, I knew I had seen it somewhere, I just forgot where.

The model Martinfocazio has must be the older style.

If the new style has a barrel capable of handling a 45LC, I would suspect excessive blowby of the propellant gases when shooting the .410 and thereby loss of power wheather shooting slugs or shot.

Are the ballistics for the 45LC better than a .410 slug?

Bountyhunter

<< Are the ballistics for the 45LC better than a .410 slug >>

Well... no, but that's not relevant. Darn good question, though!

Even with sissy factory loads, the 45 Colt is considerably more lethal than the lightweight .410 slug.

A Remington .410 slug is supposedly 1/5 oz - that's 87.5 grains - VERY lightweight (a little heavier than 2 each standard 22 lr bullets). It supposedly leaves the muzzle at 1830 fps with about 654 ft-lbs energy. As you might imagine, it sheds velocity like it's wearing a parachute and sheds energy even faster: 1040 fps and 211 ft-lbs at 100 yards. These velocities are from a long shotgun barrel.

Two wimpy-sissy-no-chamber-pressure factory 45 Colt loads are:

225 grain Semiwadcutter at 960 fps MV & 460 ft-lbs ME; at 100 yards 832 fps 346 ft-lbs
250 grain Lead Roundnose at 860 fps MV and 411 ft-lbs ME; at 100 yards 780 fps 340 ft-lbs

These velocities are from a 6" vented barrel; actual velocities froma 16" unvented barrel will be significantly higher (ESTIMATE: figure about 250 fps faster at the muzzle and maybe around supersonic (barely) at 100 yards - and the energies considerably higher)

These wimpy loads (less powerful than the original black powder loads) are noted for deep penetration in game. The 410 slug is noted for NOT having much penetration in game.

I've been loading 45 Colt ammo for over 30 years and even my sissy plinking loads are warmer than the factory loads; one of my favorite plinking loads is a hard cast 255 gr Keith style at a tic over 1000 fps (actual chronographed velocity). Serious loads for the 45 Colt are in the 44 magnum area, but I don't know if the M6 is safe with those heavy loads. Based on the factory pressure for 410, though, I'm confident that the M6 would be safe with warmer than factory 45 Colt loads.

On the other question - I doubt there is any significant loss of power with the 410 fired thru a .452 inch bore - modern plastic wads probably take that kind of out of the equation. Shotgun bores are rather sloppy to begin with in terms of acceptable range of size - compared to rifles.

Hope this helps - for what it's worth, the 410 is a heck of a lot better shotshell than the 45 Colt, but I'm still not crazy about it - anything larger than 410 is better <grin>. Don't have an M6, but I've burnt enough powder in 410 and 45 Colt to know what to expect from both.

Before anyone asks - yes, it is simpler to use a 44 magnum or 454 Casull or 480 Ruger than hot load a 45 Colt. I DO have and use a 44 Mag as well...

Regards,

Tom

AyersTG:

Have you ever used sabots that hold a smaller diameter bullet (Like a .30 caliber or .270 etc.) in the 45LC cartridge for higher speed and longer distances?

Bountyhunter

Pete,

Nope. That's another good question. I've loaded sabots for 30 cal (224 bullet) for a buddy - his hb 308. Not sure we ever hit on the right combo for powder - they were fast, but not as fast as I thought they could have been. Accuracy was good but not as good as the rifle would do with 30 cal match bullets. Lots of factors in that...

I'm not sure if there is anything wonderful in a 45 Colt sabot. A bullet with a fairly high sectional density - like a 200gr 30 cal - is probably not going to stabilize at the slow twist of a 45 Colt. I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that something no longer than a 120gr 30 cal will stabilize at that twist/velocity combination.

A really short bullet - like a 45 gr 224 - probably will stabilize. But it's not gonna set any velocity records - not enough powder capacity, no matter how I slice it - the case won't hold enough to really uncork even a light bullet. MAYBE with triple base powder - which is not available in cannister grade AFAIK - one could get close to 222 Rem velocities.

Sabot or not, there is only so much energy available in the volume of powder the case will hold. Jump up to a 45-70 case and I think your question gets more interesting... but I'm not sure where the application lies - armor piercing is the only thing I can think of (that's a done deal - SLAP rounds for 308 and 50 cal). Sabots are better in smooth bores with fin-stabilized projectiles and so far that's too much hassle to seriously consider for shoulder-fired rifles. The whole question is interesting to me, but I am not sure it leads anywhere for me.

A heavier bullet from the 45 Colt is more interesting to me - like a 300gr Hornady XTP or similar heavy cast bullets. Especially from a 16" carbine barrel. I once loaded a bunch of 385gr hard cast bullets for one of my 45 Colt revolvers - heavy loads. Penetration was incredible; recoil was heavy but not hurtful. Trajectory was loopy - I did not have a chronograph then so I really have no idea what the velocity was. But they didn't serve any purpose that other loads couldn't do, so I didn't pursue that any farther.

Back to your sabot question - I suspect that there may be some use for, say, a 200gr 40 cal fired out of a 45 Colt case at about factory pressures or a 180gr 357 - might give a performance boost without the need for a robust gun. Dunno if it's worth the effort or not...

Tom

Tom:

Shotshells with a manual Lee Loader is the only reloading I have ever done, although I have an old Herter's reloading guide lying around somewhere in the house.

The reason for the curiosity of sabot loads stems from my personal preference of the .45 auto caliber. I have a Springfield Armory 1911A1 .45 auto (Pre-Bankruptcy, made in the USA.) that I would like to have longer range flatter shooting cartridges for. Finned projectiles would be okay, but I realize that the squat .45 auto doesn't leave much room for what I would like. Back when I bought this Springfield Armory .45, they used to make barrels that would fit on the frame utilizing the firing mechanism for single shot rifle cartridges. I could kick myself now for not having bought one of those barrels then, but you know the old saw about hindsight been 20/20.

Bountyhunter
<img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm... I'm pretty sure you can drop on parts to convert it to 38 Super - slide with barrel etc plus a magazine. Perhaps 357 SiG conversion as well... a 10mm conversion would be cool but I'm not sure that can be done - seems to me that the overall length of the 10mm Auto is more than 45 ACP. There is a hotshot 45 ACP conversion (nomenclature escapes me) around - basically uses cut-down 308 cases (heavier web and head) and is loaded to higher pressure - if you're serious, let me know and I'll dig up some info.