I took my M6 scout to the range yesterday and really gave it a workout. It's quite the gun, however, as could be expected, it's got some limitations.

I fired from a bench rest, at 25, 50 and 100 yards, using a wide range of ammunition.

First, I'll talk about the .410 chambering.
To dispell any myths, yes, you can shoot an M6 with some level of accuracy at 100 yards with a .410 slug. That said, it's unlikely I'd be able to actually kill anything larger than a goat with a shot at 100 yards, given the realtively low muzzle velocity and limited impact power of the .410. Also, the drop of the .410 is pretty severe, I found myself with a "rainbow trajectory" to get on the paper at 100 yards.

On the other hand, at 50 yards, the .410 slug in the M6 was just great. (where I live the .410 is legal for deer hunting!) Not the best groupings, but half of that was me, as I didn't have a bench rest or anything, just a table and a firm grip. But at 50 yards, the .410 slug was consistently where it needed to be.
At 25 yards, the slug seemed a little silly, but I was able to really get a nice consistent grouping and it has quite a wallop at that distance.

For .410 shot, I used #6 shot and did some patterning. Basically, you have a gun good to 40-50 yards, at best, and I found it to have nice tight patterns, consistent and reliable. I also shot a few clays with the #6 shot, getting a sight picture was quick and easy. The amount of shot it fairly small (this is a .410 we're talking about here) so it might not be the best for anything far out or up.

Now for the .22.

Unfortunately, the .22 side of the M6 was basically useless at 100 yards. even though I know that some of the error was me, the overall grouping was not what I'd hope, on the order of 6 to 8" at best - this was with CCI stinger and Mini-Mag loads. At 50 yards, things were better. I had some particularly good results with CCI velocitors, a very fast round that is very flat. The peep sight is easy to use, and fairly accurate, however, if you were to use the M6 in a survival situation, it would be best used in the under 50 yard range, regardless of load selected.

At 50 yards, I was able to get a killing shot in on rabbit sized targets consistently, however, for squirells, it was a bit harder.

Still, the M6 is a cool little gun, and while I prefer something like my ancient lever-action winchester 94 in 30-30, or semi-auto Ruger or Marlin it's not a bad gun for the money. And the guys at the range though it was very cool.

Next test will be with the Beretta CX-4, which I hope to pick up in the next week or two. This is a 9mm Carbine, with very cool styling and some great reports.

Martin,

Thanks for the report. Have you ever gone deer hunting with the .410?

Martinfocazio:

I am a fan of high velocity hollow point .22's myself. I use hyper velocity 32 grain hollow point .22's which are a few hundred feet per second faster than high velocity hollow points in my little Jennings J22 shirt pocket pistol because with such a short barrel, I need all the power I can get. My J22 is the only one I know of that feeds so reliably that I purchased 2 extra clips for it and am able to fire off 18 shots as fast as I can reload without jamming.

Having said all the above, my Government model Ruger, and my Mossberg light target rifle (Yes, Mossberg used to make rifles back when I was a kid.) eat solid bullet standard velocity and target velocity .22's. This is not because they can't handle all manner of .22's, but because the lower velocity .22's are more accurate, and if you can afford the target quality .22 bullets, it gets even better. If accuracy is paramount in your out back needs, buy the target quality .22's as you will not be shooting that many and sight your rifle for them, and you can buy bricks of high velocity .22's cheap for less serious needs. I believe you will be pleasantly suprised at the improved groupings. Strangely, Eley makes some of the best target .22 ammunition and I believe it is a British firm; go figure!

I don't know what the M6 makers say about it, but you can shoot Colt long .45's in a 410 bore. They may not shoot well in a smooth bore, but it is a nice occasional option. You might also want to look and see if a barrel liner is available for other rifle cartridges that could be used with the M6.

Good luck!

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter wrote: I don't know what the M6 makers say about it, but you can shoot Colt long .45's in a 410 bore. They may not shoot well in a smooth bore, but it is a nice occasional option.

Have YOU actually done this? In an actual .410 barrel as opposed to a .45/.410 barrel? Even if a .45 Colt cartridge would fit in a .410 chamber I would be leery of sending a .452 slug down a .410 bore (not to mention the choke).
gino

I've not used the .410 for hunting any mammals, but I did use it with some #6 shot to shoot a recaltraint guinea hen out of a tree on butchering day. I know some guys who have gone deer hunting with a .410, they say if you are in close, it's effective, but sometimes needs a follow-on shot or two. I don't care for that.
I strive for one shot, one kill. I don't trophy hunt, I belive in eating what you kill. For that reason, I tend to use a heavy, hard hitting, fast-dropping load where I can. Around here it's all slug hunting anyway, so the 12 guage slug is king, and with good reason. Away from here, where it's legal, I tend to favor 30-06, 30-30, 7mm Magnum, and 308 for Deer. Like I said, my Winchester model 94 30-30, with it's iron sghts and top-ejecting bolt action, which was my grandfathers, has probobly been used to take more deer in the last 80 years than any gun in this county. It's still, by far, my favorite gun, anthough the Remington 700 is quickly catching up.

Gino:

The statement is based on Winchesters Mdl. 94 410 which has been touted by some gun testing magazine as being capable of firing a Colt 45 long cartridge. The Winchester is full bore and I do not know the exact dimensions of either cartridge or shotshell. I do not have any first hand experience doing so.


FOLLOWUP:
Did a quick search on the web and came up with a .454 diameter for a Colt 45 long, and .410 diameter for the 410. I could very well have remembered incorrectly and the article may have in fact said a 41 caliber cartridge, or the articles writer may have accidently written 45 caliber when they meant 41.

Thanks for speaking up Gino, I would have hated to face Martinfocazio's wife if he had hurt himself listening to me.

Bountyhunter <img src="/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Bountyhunter--

See Chris Kavanaugh's disclaimer post.

NO! NO! NO! No one should attempt to fire a .45 Colt round in a firearm chambered for a .410 bore shotgun round!!! On the slim chance that it might be possible, you're asking for serious trouble.

I don't know what's been said in any gun-zine, but I wouldn't trust any claim in a magazine article unless it was verified and approved in writing by the manufacturer.

I think the confusion is from the capability of the Thompson/Center Contender handgun (& its successors). The Contender family of guns is the only one of which I'm aware that is designed to fire both a centerfire handgun round or a shotgun round from the same barrel.

The T/C Contender is a break-open single shot handgun with interchangeable barrels, permitting multiple calibers to be used (one at a time) on the same frame. The Contender has a .45 Colt/.410 barrel as an option. It is a .45 caliber rifled barrel, with a screw-on straight rifled "choke" tube to stop the spin of the shot charge as it leaves the muzzle.

The barrel is a true .45 caliber, and will permit the slightly smaller .410 shell to chamber. Again, note that the T/C barrel is a ".45/410", not a ".410/.45" . Trying to stuff a .45 into a .410 is a recipe for disaster.

See Chris Kavanaugh's disclaimer post.

The sub-caliber barrel liner, however, is a great idea, if one can be found.

Did I mention, see Chris Kavanaugh's disclaimer post?
David

I believe that the .41 mag is a much more powerfull round than the .45 colt and would produce greater pressure, it would be a really bad idea to fire it from a .410 shotgun.

Ditto on the .41 Mag!

It's usually described as being about 10% less everything than the .44 Mag. That holds true in my experience.

Stuffing a .41 Mag round in a .410 chamber is simply putting a grenade under your cheek when you squeeze the trigger.

Don't do that, either!

David

The only other instance I've seen of the .45LC and .410 being used interchangeably is the Thunder 5 revolver.

Thunder Five Website And Picture <----- Clickable Link

Panz

NEF makes a .45/.410 long gun in their "Survivor" series, there are also several "derringer" type hundguns made in the .45/.410, the American Derringer Model 6 for one.
gino <img src="/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You can only shoot the 45LC in the new M6 Scout Pistol/Carbine
Not the Rifle!
The Thunder 5 is another Pistol that can shoot both.

I have a M6 Scout Rifle in 22 Hornet/.410 and I love it.
I also love my Thunder 5.
I plane on getting one of the new M6 Scout Pistol/Carbine as soon as possible. I just hope they have some place to store the 'De-rotator'/'Choke' IN the rifle.
The stupid thing is, that if you reverse the order when putting the longer barrel and stock on...You have just committed a FELONY!!! <img src="/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> What STUPID 'laws' we live under...

Jamesraykenney:

Darn!, I knew I had seen it somewhere, I just forgot where.

The model Martinfocazio has must be the older style.

If the new style has a barrel capable of handling a 45LC, I would suspect excessive blowby of the propellant gases when shooting the .410 and thereby loss of power wheather shooting slugs or shot.

Are the ballistics for the 45LC better than a .410 slug?

Bountyhunter

<< Are the ballistics for the 45LC better than a .410 slug >>

Well... no, but that's not relevant. Darn good question, though!

Even with sissy factory loads, the 45 Colt is considerably more lethal than the lightweight .410 slug.

A Remington .410 slug is supposedly 1/5 oz - that's 87.5 grains - VERY lightweight (a little heavier than 2 each standard 22 lr bullets). It supposedly leaves the muzzle at 1830 fps with about 654 ft-lbs energy. As you might imagine, it sheds velocity like it's wearing a parachute and sheds energy even faster: 1040 fps and 211 ft-lbs at 100 yards. These velocities are from a long shotgun barrel.

Two wimpy-sissy-no-chamber-pressure factory 45 Colt loads are:

225 grain Semiwadcutter at 960 fps MV & 460 ft-lbs ME; at 100 yards 832 fps 346 ft-lbs
250 grain Lead Roundnose at 860 fps MV and 411 ft-lbs ME; at 100 yards 780 fps 340 ft-lbs

These velocities are from a 6" vented barrel; actual velocities froma 16" unvented barrel will be significantly higher (ESTIMATE: figure about 250 fps faster at the muzzle and maybe around supersonic (barely) at 100 yards - and the energies considerably higher)

These wimpy loads (less powerful than the original black powder loads) are noted for deep penetration in game. The 410 slug is noted for NOT having much penetration in game.

I've been loading 45 Colt ammo for over 30 years and even my sissy plinking loads are warmer than the factory loads; one of my favorite plinking loads is a hard cast 255 gr Keith style at a tic over 1000 fps (actual chronographed velocity). Serious loads for the 45 Colt are in the 44 magnum area, but I don't know if the M6 is safe with those heavy loads. Based on the factory pressure for 410, though, I'm confident that the M6 would be safe with warmer than factory 45 Colt loads.

On the other question - I doubt there is any significant loss of power with the 410 fired thru a .452 inch bore - modern plastic wads probably take that kind of out of the equation. Shotgun bores are rather sloppy to begin with in terms of acceptable range of size - compared to rifles.

Hope this helps - for what it's worth, the 410 is a heck of a lot better shotshell than the 45 Colt, but I'm still not crazy about it - anything larger than 410 is better <grin>. Don't have an M6, but I've burnt enough powder in 410 and 45 Colt to know what to expect from both.

Before anyone asks - yes, it is simpler to use a 44 magnum or 454 Casull or 480 Ruger than hot load a 45 Colt. I DO have and use a 44 Mag as well...

Regards,

Tom

AyersTG:

Have you ever used sabots that hold a smaller diameter bullet (Like a .30 caliber or .270 etc.) in the 45LC cartridge for higher speed and longer distances?

Bountyhunter

Pete,

Nope. That's another good question. I've loaded sabots for 30 cal (224 bullet) for a buddy - his hb 308. Not sure we ever hit on the right combo for powder - they were fast, but not as fast as I thought they could have been. Accuracy was good but not as good as the rifle would do with 30 cal match bullets. Lots of factors in that...

I'm not sure if there is anything wonderful in a 45 Colt sabot. A bullet with a fairly high sectional density - like a 200gr 30 cal - is probably not going to stabilize at the slow twist of a 45 Colt. I'm gonna hazard a guess and say that something no longer than a 120gr 30 cal will stabilize at that twist/velocity combination.

A really short bullet - like a 45 gr 224 - probably will stabilize. But it's not gonna set any velocity records - not enough powder capacity, no matter how I slice it - the case won't hold enough to really uncork even a light bullet. MAYBE with triple base powder - which is not available in cannister grade AFAIK - one could get close to 222 Rem velocities.

Sabot or not, there is only so much energy available in the volume of powder the case will hold. Jump up to a 45-70 case and I think your question gets more interesting... but I'm not sure where the application lies - armor piercing is the only thing I can think of (that's a done deal - SLAP rounds for 308 and 50 cal). Sabots are better in smooth bores with fin-stabilized projectiles and so far that's too much hassle to seriously consider for shoulder-fired rifles. The whole question is interesting to me, but I am not sure it leads anywhere for me.

A heavier bullet from the 45 Colt is more interesting to me - like a 300gr Hornady XTP or similar heavy cast bullets. Especially from a 16" carbine barrel. I once loaded a bunch of 385gr hard cast bullets for one of my 45 Colt revolvers - heavy loads. Penetration was incredible; recoil was heavy but not hurtful. Trajectory was loopy - I did not have a chronograph then so I really have no idea what the velocity was. But they didn't serve any purpose that other loads couldn't do, so I didn't pursue that any farther.

Back to your sabot question - I suspect that there may be some use for, say, a 200gr 40 cal fired out of a 45 Colt case at about factory pressures or a 180gr 357 - might give a performance boost without the need for a robust gun. Dunno if it's worth the effort or not...

Tom

Tom:

Shotshells with a manual Lee Loader is the only reloading I have ever done, although I have an old Herter's reloading guide lying around somewhere in the house.

The reason for the curiosity of sabot loads stems from my personal preference of the .45 auto caliber. I have a Springfield Armory 1911A1 .45 auto (Pre-Bankruptcy, made in the USA.) that I would like to have longer range flatter shooting cartridges for. Finned projectiles would be okay, but I realize that the squat .45 auto doesn't leave much room for what I would like. Back when I bought this Springfield Armory .45, they used to make barrels that would fit on the frame utilizing the firing mechanism for single shot rifle cartridges. I could kick myself now for not having bought one of those barrels then, but you know the old saw about hindsight been 20/20.

Bountyhunter
<img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm... I'm pretty sure you can drop on parts to convert it to 38 Super - slide with barrel etc plus a magazine. Perhaps 357 SiG conversion as well... a 10mm conversion would be cool but I'm not sure that can be done - seems to me that the overall length of the 10mm Auto is more than 45 ACP. There is a hotshot 45 ACP conversion (nomenclature escapes me) around - basically uses cut-down 308 cases (heavier web and head) and is loaded to higher pressure - if you're serious, let me know and I'll dig up some info.