Gentlemen,

I'm looking for a good backpack that can outlast me. I'm reluctant to buy from a civilian department store assuming that military grade backpacks are made to last.

The problem is I'm not too familiar on what makes a good backpack. I also would like your experienced opinion on the optimal size of a backpack.

Could you tell me which material is the best in terms of its durability?
What size backpack is suitable for 3-7 day hike?

I have not tried any of their products; I've heard positive things about these two:

http://www.condoroutdoor.com/147_urban_go_pack.aspx
http://www.condoroutdoor.com/Condor-160.aspx

Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with Condor.

Jeanette Isabelle

Well sir welcome to the forums lots of good people here.
Watching this thread.

lee

I also heard positive words about this pack:

http://www.condoroutdoor.com/condor-125.aspx

Jeanette Isabelle

I've been very happy with Goruck. There are other great makers of backpacks out there.

Hill People Gear and Mystery Ranch both make some extremely rugged packs that will last for many years. Not cheap but very high quality.

If military grade packs are of particular interest I recommend the following source
https://www.varusteleka.com

They're in Finland, have a wide variety of European surplus equipment, and flat rate shipping to the US. I have gotten a couple of things from them and been totally satisfied. No association, just very pleased customer. Web site is in English.

You might also look on YouTube for "Survival Russia". Lars makes reviews of different military packs. He's thorough but to the point.

Military packs are generally durable, but they are heavier than civilian ones. They are not as well designed but some are more versatile as far as adding pouches and pockets or strapping more stuff on.

I have had great luck with Gregory packs for durability, and they are cheaper than Mystery Ranch.

I would recommend Kifaru packs, bombproof but expensive. Have their Xray myself.

I doubt that military look-alike backpacks are significantly more durable than many of the better civilian backpacks commonly available. Several of the brands mentioned in earlier posts (Gregory, Kifaru) have very good reputations.

What is most critical in a backpack is fit; most current brands are adjustable. I would recommend going to a good outdoor store that offers fitting service and try on a loaded backpack and fine tune the pack while in the store. REI would be my choice, although they are not the only outfit with this capability. All of their packs are good quality, including their house brand. I'll bet you would be very happy with an REI Traverse 75 (or equivalent) for your contemplated usage.

Some people (especially ultra-light backpackers)can do a seven day trip with a 28 liter backpack; others will need a 75 liter backpack for a minimal three day excursion. I'll bet you will wind up with a daypack/overnight pack of about 28-30L and a larger pack, 65-80L for more extended trips.

I probably have about a dozen backpacks of varying size and age; some are more than thirty years old. I am impresses with the quality of the better brands available today. The only failure I have had was on a Maxpedition pack (military style), which was repaired easily.

Again, I would go with REI; they have an excellent warranty and return policy. I have been a satisfied member, buying a lot of their stuff for over fifty years.

You also inquired about what material would be durable. For years, most decent backpacks have been made with synthetic cloth, most typically nylon, which is virtually immortal in anything like normal usage. The weak spot in any pack available today is the sewing and the seams. This is not evident on casual inspection and one reason for checking the warranty/return policy.

Durability will be significantly influenced by the type of trips you contemplate. Will you be bush whacking through rugged terrain or strolling along the Appalachian Trail? Carrying climbing/caving/hunting gear?

For really heavy loads and longer trips, consider an exterior frame pack, like the classic Kelty packs. For heavy or bulky loads in moderate country, they are unsurpassed, but modern internal frame packs are more versatile and just about as comfortable.

Whatever you buy, it will not be cheap. Shop carefully and rent or borrow first, if at all possible.

If you buy a backpack from any reputable mountaineering store, you should get a very good item. For example, I had a North Face backpack for many years. It never wore out, and the seams remained strong. You will pay more for a genuine mountaineering backpack ... but that's because the users expect these items to be strong.

One important thing. Normal backpacks are 'external frame packs' ... meaning that the frame is on the outside of the pack. Mountain climbers generally use internal frame packs. So you need to decide which type you want.

I agree that it is very handy to have a lot of pockets. the biggest problem i had with my old North Face pack is that it wS necessary to dive through all the contents to find some small object ... usually at the bottom of the pack.

I am sure that there are a lot of cheap junky backpacks in the market. My advice is ... dont buy at those stores. go to a reputable outdoors store and try their products.

BTW, I agree with earlier advice. REI is an excellent place to buy a pack. And you should take the time to learn how the pack works, and how it is intended to fit your body. Time spent choosing good gear ... is always time well spent!

About your final question ... The backpacks that you buy at REI will be fine for a 1-week hike. But it all depends on how much gear you try to jam in your pack. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for experience and good judgment. And that experience only comes from doing a lot of trails. So start simple - and build up. Have fun!!

Good luck.

Pete

I have a pack made by Lowe that lasted 18 years of working outdoors, used more days in that time than not. It is mostly 420 denier pack cloth with 1000 denier Cordura bottom. It is now 35 years old and I am taking it to the Wind Rivers next week on a scout backpacking trip. It is large enough to hold a bear canister sideways and is an internal frame (best for off trail for balance). If you are strictly on trail, an external frame pack may be cooler.

A all Cordura pack is a waste of weight, since the bottom 6 inches is where the wear will occur first.

There is durable and there is durable. As a civilian, who doesn't lug his backpack everyday and has the has his backpack strapped on the outside of vehicles, most civilian packs are durable enough, more comfortable and more practical.

I actually rarely have worn a pack out, they tend to be replaced by changing needs i have.

What purpose wll you be using it for?

Figure out what you need to carry, for how long and get the backpack that does the job.

One issue I have had with some is that I prefer Nalgene type water bottles, and most have side pockets to hold a small plastic bottle, disposable type. I carry a water bladder as well, but I like the functionality and versatility of the larger bottles. I generally carry single wall stainless steel ones.

Assess how you need to access your gear inside to see if you are good with a top loading bag or need to open it along the front. Does it have a pocket for a sleeping bag?

Many good civilian packs are adjustable for torso length, within limits. Military ones are not.

Agreed. Get your gear first then purchase the back of the correct size and type to fit your gear.

Actually, I think you may be better off by doing an overnighter or two and either renting a pack or borrowing one from a friend. Then gauge what features you like or don't; then try other packs and go from there.

You will probably find much better comfort and adjustability in a civilian backpack. A military pack might be more durable. Maybe.

My favorite pack is my Deuter. At the time I bought it, the mesh back panel was really innovative. Now-a-days, I'm sure other brands have probably copied it by now. The mesh makes the pack so comfortable and cool to wear. These pictures are day packs, but Deuter also uses this mesh system on larger packs.

Forgot about Kifaru,good stuff.

" A military pack might be more durable. Maybe."

I have a Lowe pack, purchased in 1991 (or thereabouts). It is an "Alpine Attack Summit" (how macho is that?). I have used it extensively and still employ it today. It is thin, small, and light, made of a thin ripstop nylon with mesh shoulder straps. It often serves as a stuff sack and morphs into a light day pack for short excursions. It is totally bombproof and intact after more than a quarter century of sustained use.

It does lack all the molle and pals webbing which adds weight and (supposedly) versatility. So I can't easily pack 30 round magazines or grenades. Not all that good for warfare because it is bright yellow.

Do get a noticeable color, not olive drab. Back when just about all packs were only offered in dull, mil-surp colors, we used to tie bright ribbons on them so they could be found easily in the brush...

Welcome to ETS! You've already received a lot of good advice, but I'll add my $.02 worth.

As others have noted, the first thing to do is decide what you want to carry, and where you plan to carry it. Military packs are designed to meet the needs of military personnel in combat. Yes, they are built (overbuilt?) very tough, but that doesn't necessarily make them better for your intended use. Soldiers in combat often carry very heavy loads (50-70 lbs, or even more). All this extra weight is often bulky or oddly shaped items, sometimes with sharp edges. Think extra ammo for personal weapon, extra radio batteries, night vision gear and batteries, smoke flares, mortar rounds or belts of ammo, breaching gear, entrenching tools, etc etc. Combat will be very abusive on gear. Think crawling through broken glass and rubble, hanging packs on the outside of vehicles, crawling through (not around) brush or rock slides, etc etc. How likely are you to be doing that?

The military buys gear in huge lots, and tends towards a "one size fits all". If you aren't that size, the fit might be less than optimal. Also, these days most soldiers will be wearing body armor, and military pack straps are designed with that in mind. Again, unless you wear body armor, the shoulder straps might not be the optimal fit for you.

Military gear often tends to be very heavy, relative to civilian packs. Military packs have lots of Velcro and other places to attach other gear. That looks cool, but adds weight. And those packs are designed as part of a system, so the attachment points mate with other pieces of gear in that system. Unless you have (or need?) that other gear, all that Velcro just adds useless weight. A pound on your back is a pound on your back, whether it is food you can eat, or useless (to you) extra straps and Velcro. A weight that feels comfortable in the store or on the first mile of trail, can feel crushing after many hours and miles.

As others have noted, I would strongly advise going to a good retailer such as REI who specialized in backpacking gear. Talk to the sales folks, get fitted for a pack. They can also advise you on some nice pleasant easy intro backpack trips in your area.

That depends. What sort of terrain and climate? How long a hike each day? Alone or with others to share group gear? If you haven't backpacked before, I would strongly advise starting with a more modest trip. A short hike followed by a one night campout is ideal for starters. This will give you a chance to evaluate what you need (and more importantly don't need), and get used to your pack and other gear. Any problems that arise (and some probably will), won't be that big a deal if you are only out for one night. I know far too many people who did a long trip for their first backpack, had a miserable time, and never wanted to do it again.

Good advice from AKSAR, as always. I started hiking, first with day hikes (gradually realizing that a backpack would be very comfortable)then longer day hikes that stretched into the night, then overnights, and eventually even longer trips. Getting the right combination of gear that works for you and your trips is going to take some time, and what works for someone else may not be quite your thing, even in the same general environment.

But it is a lot of fun in figuring out what works....

AKSAR has summed it up best in regards to military vs recreation hiking backpacks

Over the years, I have found through trial and error (and a lot of money) that there is no one perfect backpack and at one time, I had over 20 different packs. The pack I use for multi day hiking in the summer is not good for winter. The pack for day hikes does work for a fishing pack, the pack used for EDC for work essentials does not work for day hikes and so on.

The best advise for anyone is - don't cheap out any pack and stay away from the poorly made knockoffs and purchase from a reliable store such as REI or in Canada at MEC. A well made pack will last you a lifetime - and probably more. When purchasing your pack, don't buy it because the color is cool etc. Instead, proper fit is essential and most outdoor retailers will have various types of padded weights and general camping items to add to the pack when you are testing. Also ask if the pack is available in a short, standard or long lengths. It is surprising how an ill fitting pack can be if the length of it for your body frame is too short or too long - even by a couple of inches.

Hi, always wonder where you can get high quality gear that has the durability of military equipment. I see a lot of normal brands such as North face, Condor, but i dont know if that is the same.
any suggestions?

North Face has made quality outdoor gear and equipment for many years.I have been impressed with their packs and tents for a long time, especially their VE-25 mountaineering tent.

Inevitably, their line has verged toward trendy and fashionable, which is why their brand is now featured on vacuous models in outlets like the one you linked. Their real outdoor stuff is as good as ever, and every bit as good as mil spec, often better for the intended purpose. Buy from any good retail outlet.

I don't much care for military gear. When I served, the things I was issued were junk, and definitely inferior to what I had purchased as a civilian. Military stuff is better now, because they have adopted some of the civilian items (like Gore-tex).

Some one who has served more recently (Montanero, are you listening?) can better comment on current items....

The newer packs used by the military (and there is a wide variety now) carry more and are of higher quality and have the ability to attach more things to the outside. The MOLLE pouches are useful and there are many more types than just ammo pouches. Some of the packs are very large. The external frames are made of a heavy plastic that is less prone to breaking than the old aluminum frames of the ALICE packs. The are a little flexible in sizing.

When out in the remote areas for either work or with the scouts, I like to have certain things attached to the outside of my pack so everyone knows exactly where to find them (first aid, ropes, communications, extra water) without dumping my pack out. This is especially important with smaller packs for shorter trips. I do look for attachment points, even on civilian packs, and have had some civilian packs modified with MOLLE type attachment points. One of the advantages of living near Ft. Bragg is the plethora of parachute riggers who know how to sew on heavy nylon. Some of the gear companies actually started around here with former riggers modifying gear for soldiers (and we used to get in trouble for having our gear modified, now it is normal, even expected).

One advantage to military surplus gear is price and availability. Here it is coming out of our ears and the prices are very reasonable. It is better to have a pack that works than to not have a perfect one.

I am with Hikermor though in that I prefer to have a higher quality and better design than you usually find in military gear. For my scouts I steer them towards surplus just because it is more affordable. Many families have financial difficulty and this removes the obstacles that prevent the kids from participating. It can also ensure that they have what they need and that it will work. Especially when you are talking winter outings. Long underwear, boots, jackets, ponchos, sleeping bags can all be very expensive. The military stuff will work and keep them safe. It is hard to find smaller sizes however, for the younger scouts.

There are some newer civilian brands that are improving in quality, but they are also going up in price. Outdoor Research (OR), Alps Mountaineering, High Sierra have all improved in quality and are much more affordable than Mystery Ranch.

All of that being said, if you feel that you need to evade notice and sneak around the brush, by all means get a military pack. They work. A bright color is safer though. Zombies don't care what color you are using!

sorry to hijack the topic ...

"One of the advantages of living near Ft. Bragg is the plethora of parachute riggers who know how to sew on heavy nylon. Some of the gear companies actually started around here"

Montanero ... I have been trying to find a source for that heavy-duty nylon webbing. i saw it once on some gear rigged for a para-drop at Edwards AFB. the nylon is very thick, looks incredibly strong. i have never been able to find out where to buy it. if you know a source, please post.

Pete

Montanero reminds me of days gone by, when I was starting out, and then mil surp was a good option - a bit on the heavy side, but the second hand military mountain tent, and the bag,sleeping, mountain kept me snug and warm.

Eventually Uncle Sam made me an offer I could not refuse, and I had all the military gear one could ask for. But when I got out, I immediately purchased a Kelty frame pack and a quality down sleeping bag - an entire month's wages at the time....and well spent.

I will look for a source for that type of nylon. Do you have specs that you are looking for? (color, width, strength).

Note that my previous comments were not meant to diss military gear. I was only trying to point out that military gear is designed for specific requirements, which are in many cases different than civilian needs. But certainly the price of surplus gear makes it attractive. Like hikermor, in my youth I used a lot of GI surplus gear because that was all I could afford. The same is no doubt true for Montanero's boy scouts. (They are very fortunate to have a leader with his background and skills!)

In my opinion, currently the best compromise between function, sturdiness, and light weight is found in packs and other gear designed for serious technical and expeditionary climbing. Look for brands such as Black Diamond, Patagonia, and Arc'teryx. Hard core climber's lives depend on their gear working, and not falling apart, yet weight is crucial when doing big climbs at high altitudes. But this gear is definitely not cheap! Hikermor mentioned the North Face VE 25 tent. The VE 25 and it's almost identical predecessor the VE 24 was for many years considered the Gold Standard tent for use in the most extreme conditions in winter, in arctic regions, and at high altitude. I understand that various Spec Ops teams contracted with the North Face for special runs of these tents in colors suitable for military use.

Some of these high end mountaineering gear makers have special divisions that design and make gear for Spec Ops and other specialized users. See for example ARC'TERYX LEAF. (WARNING: Opening this link can result in Life Threatening Sticker Shock!)

As always, opinions differ on this. Generally speaking, I have just the opposite view, and for me the less stuff on the outside of my pack, the better. Generally the trend in climbing packs is for a clean exterior to avoid snagging. The one exception to that, for me, is my shovel when traveling in avalanche terrain. When a companion is buried in a slide, seconds count and having my shovel instantly available is a big plus. As always, different situations lead to different solutions.

I have a VE 25, but somehow the fly disappeared, making it almost useless. Know where I might find one?

Yes, for climbing or busting brush, a clean profile on your pack is always best!

If you want some sticker shock look at Tactical Tailor's new MALICE pack. That will shock you.

Have you tried contacting the North Face directly? In my experience their customer service was quite good. I have a VE 24, and after many years of use the spongy spacer things that go between the fly and tent were going flat. I called North Face and they were able to provide new ones.

I never received any replies from the company. Just looking to see if there may be some second hand ones out there. Thanks.

Thank you for your replies.

I had a look at condoroutdoor.com but I can't find the price or the buy button. After googling I found something similar, what do you thing @Jeanette_Isabelle?

https://militarytrained.com/product/military-multifunction-water-resistant-outdoor-bag/

@Montanero do you know if the bag made of nylon is light enough? is there a better material that is sturdy buy light? But I think @hikermor answered this one.

Thanks, @hikermor I agree a well-fitted bag is important, I might just do that. But come back online to make a final purchase

@Pete north face must be expensive, how much did you pay for yours?

@AKSAR thank you for your advice. The terrain is a typical Australian bushland with about 16-22 degrees temperature.

I don't have enough information on the link you gave me to give you accurate information.

Here are links to the first two bags I mentioned; I don't have a price for the third:

https://www.survivalresources.com/condor-venture-pack.html
https://www.survivalresources.com/condor-urban-go-pack.html

Jeanette Isabelle

There are many grades and variations of nylon. I have a small Gregory made with Sil Nylon, which is thin and light, but not as durable as the heavier nylons. Most of the major backpack manufacturers will use a good grade of nylon.

One thing I will recommend for your area, as I have done some time in the Southwest of Australia, a good durable nylon is a good thing. Everything there seems to want to tear, poke or abrade your gear. I don't think that something like Sil Nylon will last long there.

The design of the bag you linked to seems OK, but with some off brands what you will find is defects in the manufacturing. Sometimes that includes poor materials, like inferior plastic buckles, and sewing that starts to come apart right away. If you do go with something like that, make sure they have a good return policy.

Montanero... at the end of Desert Storm, Blackhawk seemed to have a lot of the Spec OP business... has their quality dropped? I have one of their HydroStorms that I picked off the prize table at one of the Ft Bragg 3 gun matches... seems well made, but I don't really use for other than holding some hurricane supplies

Blackhawk is still good, but expensive. There are a few other companies that have opened in that same market level, but it has not driven the prices down very much. You also have a problem with the bootleg knockoffs of the popular models, and it is difficult to tell how high the quality is, but the prices are much lower of course. Blackhawk was one of the original brands though.

thank you

Montanero ... sending you a PM.
Just for information. No rush.

Pete