Brown bear stopped by 11 year old boy.
http://juneauempire.com/news/2017-06-30/armed-11-year-old-boy-saves-fishing-party-charging-bear



Woman and dogs hospitalized by black bear in Idaho.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2017/jul/04/reported-bear-attack-forces-closure-of-priest-lake/



Runner killed by black bear
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn...m=.34b16eb38bc6



Environmentalist killed by black bear. "The bear crept up on Trainor from behind, pounced, knocked her down and then went for Johnson, her employer said. Trainor was able to get out a canister of spray she had in a pouch on her belt and sprayed the bear, but she could not save Johnson, a young woman married only two weeks earlier.

The attack raised serious questions about the efficacy of pepper spray on black bear and with Johnson dead others were emerging to talk about failures they’d suffered when spraying the smallest of Alaska’s three bear species."
https://craigmedred.news/2017/06/23/alaska-bear-fears/

Pretty scary! Especially a related story that describes several black bears that shrugged off the spray and continued to attack. I'm planning a camping trip to Montana in a couple weeks and I'm a a little concerned; the largest sidearm I have is a 9mm, a bit small for ol'Grizz.

I'm a big fan of avoiding the bears. If that doesn't work, handguns are a very last resort.

For cartridges that are unlikely to immediately stop a bear, including any handgun, my hope would be to have the time to convince the bear that I am not food, perhaps by firing the pistol into the ground nearby. If I have to shoot at a bear with a 9mm pistol, I'd expect to attempt headshots at the fastest speed I could make hits until one of us stopped. I'm very good with a handgun but a 9mm against even a small black bear is desperate straights indeed.

Head shots would be next to useless. Try hitting either shoulder. That will slow him down big time.

I am not sure of the point of the original post - spray is not, and never has been, considered a perfect solution to bear attacks. Nor, for that matter, are firearms. Both have advantages and drawbacks. Camp cleanliness and isolation of bear attractants is important as well.

And sometimes, stuff happens. We could always stay home,, but that isn't a good idea, either.....

The idaho bear is still on the hunt for tasty humans or dogs.

http://www.khq.com/story/35820522/authorities-investigating-second-bear-encounter-near-priest-lake

Is it indeed the same bear?

My SD Enhanced Permit is honored in WY, MT and ID so I will certainly be taking my CCW (generally an HK P2000 in 9mm), but I may opt for the VP9 or P30S this time. I'm on the fence as to whether to get a heavier caliber sidearm; on the one hand as unlikely as a bear attack is it would be nice to have a bit more gun, but again, given the low odds I also hate to drop $700 on a S&W Model 69 that I will probably never need again.

Bear spray is a given! I will plan on getting bear spray for me and for my brother. He doesn't have a CCW, isn't interested enough in it to bother. In MT it doesn't sound like he would need a permit, they have "Constitutional carry" there. Of course I'd check the laws more carefully before I go but if that's the case I could lend him one of my 9mms just to have something on him. A 9mm is too small for large bears but I do know of cases where charging Grizzlies have been killed by handguns in 9mm! Certainly it would be better than nothing if the bear spray fails.

Ah, the seasonal debate is back.

There have been several serious bear interactions on this side of the border as well. Humans go into bear territory at this time of year, and on the rare occasions where nothing goes right, they (and the bear) make the news.

As far as is humanly possible, the first defence is prevention, prevention, prevention. This is not completely foolproof (things happen), but it has a high enough record of success that you would bet real money on it and expect a payoff if you were a serious gambler.

Last ditch efforts, spray and firearm at close range, are never completely reliable; too many variables. Placed in that situation, you do what you can with what you have.

I'll definitely be using my head (eg storing food away from camp, not cooking or sleeping in the close I cooked in, etc). But since this is a forum about being prepared for survival in any situation I figure there's no reason not to have a firearm. Better to have and not need...

Agreed: anything that avoids an encounter is the easiest and most efficient course.

I have no absolute opinions about last-ditch defensive tools; that is determined by the individual's preferences and the laws of the jurisdiction in question.

Perhaps it is worth mentioning the well-documented occurrence of "false charges," where a bear makes a charge that is a defensive bluff, an intimidation tactic, and then veers off at the last moment. I am not sure an underpowered firearm would be your friend in that situation: once wounded, a bear would not veer off. The deliberate near-miss noisemaker/popgun could still be a useful deterrent though.

The 11 year old used a load of birdshot as a deterrent for the grizzly charge. Which didn't work. Sounds like it is something they use in that area otherwise.

No single answer it seems. Some evidence that fighting back in any way for predatory black bear. So underpowered weapons like sticks, birdshot, small caliber guns, rocks etc. may be useful.

You don't have to be faster than the bear, only faster than your hiking buddy!

Which buddy?













Mother? Father? Sister? Brother? Wife? Son? Daughter? ...

Preferably one who:
a) actually runs slower than you
b) is not really important to you, you might loose a friend whether the bear gets them or not
c) is a good sidekick when it comes to provide some entertainment
puppeteer bear (don´t follow the link if black humor is not your thing)

Definitely DO NOT try this at home:

Professional Marathon runner outruns 2 black bears in Maine:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/professional-runner-outruns-black-bears-maine/story?id=48495852

Do put bear attacks in perspective. You are much more likely to suffer an injury/fatality from falls, drowning, or motor vehicle accidents than from a bear attack. In a typical year, honey bees kill more people than bears. overall, bear attacks are unusual, which is why they are reported in thee media....

+1. All of my near-death experiences have been during the drive out to wilderness areas, not walking in them.

A geocacher in central Alberta had an encounter with a grizzly. He was able to extricate himself from the situation and drive himself to the nearest hamlet.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/water-valley-bear-attack-1.4188285

I visited the website of the probable cache he was looking for - just off a remote road on the edge of the foothill terrain. Another cache in the immediate vicinity strongly promotes the idea of going in groups with the right protection (bear spray in this case) because the area is so remote.

From a statistical POV and living in an urban environment, I would agree with you. But when you are in bear country, you odds go way up.

Me probably. I'm always the slowest one in the group.
Just call me "Dinner".

LIke Mtn Lion, if you live or work where they are, you exposure is a lot more.

Two local biologists- one has killed two cougars stalking him, another used pepper spray three times on stalking lions.

Right now I wouldn't be walking my dog nearby the Priest lake Ranger Station in Idaho.

I don't want to hype the danger, but as a couple others have commented statistics don't tell the whole story. Maybe only one in a few million folks get attacked by a bear but consider how many bears there are in Chicago, L.A., NYC, Miami, etc. If you're hiking in Olympic Natl Park our odds of encountering a bear go up quite a bit.

Obsessing over bear attacks is silly but this place is called ETS! That means being prepared for the situations we can reasonably foresee. An encounter with a bear is one of those things. In my life there has been one time when I have been within 10 feet of a bear in the wild; it was looking me over pretty good for a bit then boogied out of there. Still the speed of the fella was surprising especially given the size.

Here is another bear attack that happened today in Colorado.

“I woke up to a crunching sound and a lot of pain… The bear had a hold of my head and was dragging me across the ground.”

As the bear’s teeth tore into flesh, Dylan fought back with all of the strength he had.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2017/07/09/bear-attacks-camper-dylan-ward-boulder-county/

Yikes! That's the worst case to me- attacked in your sleep! That's what happened at Yellowstone a couple years back, two people drug out of their tents in the middle of the night by bears. At least one died IIRC.

My first question is - did he have any food or aromatic items in his tent which might have attracted the bear? This seems to be a common finding in many bear attacks - a sloppy campsite.

My experience with bear country is fairly limited. On one overnight hike in Denali National park, in a locality with recent bear sightings, our tent was 100 yards distant from our food prep and eating area, and our bear cans with all smellies was another 100 yards distant, per recommendations. The hassle was worth it - it was one of the most beautiful views I have ever witnessed...

On the Channel Islands, we don't have bears, just Great White Sharks and their buddies.

You don't camp with the sharks do you, Hikermor?

I have heard of sleeping with fish. Sharing a tent with a shark is a new one to me.

I suppose that if you do have a great white, you will not have any trouble with bears.

Jeanette Isabelle

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736...rk-pictures.jpg

bearshark

Yup. Must be that time of year.

Only three pages in, and we've already had the mandatory spray discussion, the obligatory minimum caliber debate, the essential shot placement analysis, and the 'should I buy a bigger gun' question. We also have it on good authority that "The idaho bear is still on the hunt for tasty humans or dogs". And we have been treated with the ever popular "you don't have to run faster than the bear" joke. As an added bonus, we've even got a "bear shark" meme.

Any topics we've failed to cover? Has anyone learned anything really new? Has the discussion changed anyone's opinion?

Full disclosure: Anchorage is as small town. It turns out that a parent of one of the recent fatal mauling victims is an acquaintance of mine. While I never met the deceased individual, I did attend the memorial service.

The new things I have learned from these links is that bear spray has a spotty history when it comes to predatory black bears. Also that some carry birdshot for a warning/diversion, but that too was unsuccessful in one of these cases.

But I suppose we should really be getting back to flashlights and pocketknives.

I don't camp with sharks, but i have dived in their waters, especially off San Miguel Island, which has some nifty historic shipwrecks. The thing there is to spend as little time as possible on the surface. Get in, get under - get up, get out, making as little splash and disturbance as possible. Like bears,sharks are relatively unpredictable. There are procedures which diminish your chances of a shark encounter,but nothing is guaranteed.

Cal Game and Fish, I understand, does not allow any of their personnel to dive in that area. There was at least one fatality a few years ago - a commercial fisherman who was using motorized equipment on the surface.

Wherever you are, learn and study the local hazards, and adjust your procedures accordingly

I agree. Seems this topic comes up every year and the same old arguments come forth.

None of these discussions change my opinion or thoughts on bears. After a lifetime of seeing and encountering bears in their natural habitat, I am not sacred of them - but respect them.

Why wouldn't the same topics come up repeatedly? Bears are still there and the population of the internet changes daily. What is an old discussion for one is new to another. Also people move in and out of conversations as topics become relevant to them. For example while I've always respected and admired bears in general in the past I hadn't been very concerned with the notion of bear defense since there aren't many bears in MN or SD. In a week or so though I will be hiking and camping in bear country for the first time so now it's relevant to me.

"After the Colorado attack wildlife officers did not find any food that would have attracted the bear so they have set bear traps in the area and plan to continue a search for the bear with scent dogs on Monday."

http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/...usly-dangerous/

Maybe not the best for bear, but I do admire your choice in handguns! I have the P30S and my son has the VP9. Love them both. Haven't tried a P2000 yet. Equal to my admiration regarding your choice of firearms, is my admiration of the fact that you can actually conceal them. Nothing on your list is exactly "small".

Moving back to the topic at hand - the eternal debate of handgun vs. spray - if you choose the gun, something in .45-70 would be nice:

I'm not a small guy. The P30S & VP9 will conceal fairly well if you have a good holster (I have a Garrett Industries Silent Thunder IWB for every gun I ever carry, about eight of them). It comes down to how you dress, too. I'm a pretty low key guy; mostly it's jeans and T-shirts for me, and if it's not real hot I'll often have an unbuttoned and untucked shirt on over it. No skinnny jeans, either!

My P30S has been worked over by Gray Guns (super tuned trigger, optimized for CCW) and wears Trijicon HD sights. My P2000 and VP9 have night sights as well. When I go hiking I often carry a USPf9 with an Inforce APL in a chest rig (Hill People Gear Kit Bag). If I'm way "off the grid" then I will carry one in the Kit Bag and another on my hip.

A 12 ga with slugs would be about as good as anything I could reasonably see having with me. A Brenneke K.O. should shoot completely through an average size bear.

There is no handgun or handgun load that will reliably stop a large bear.

If you absolutely must shoot a bear with something smaller than field artillery or a close air support aircraft, I would recommend a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs. But it's better to avoid the bears.

Well, layers. I bought two large cans of Counter Assault bear spray. In all likelihood I won't be approached by a bear, and if I am the spray will probably do the job. Next I will have my 9mm sidearm(s) loaded with 147gr +P+ Underwood FN-FMJ penetrators. That load will likely get 3 feet or more of penetration. It's not ideal but it's portable and a guide in AK did kill a 1,000 lb grizzle with a similar load (and a large load of luck!). Plus the main threat is usually the two legged animal [aka humans] and the 9mm is ideal for that.

Lastly I do have Mossberg 500A in 12 gauge. It will be loaded with Brenneke K.O. slugs with maybe one or two rounds of 00 Buckshot at the end. My brother has a bum peg so we probably won't take many long hikes, probably I will have the 9mm on my hip, the shottie slung on my back and the bear spray at ready. My brother also has a 9mm and a 12 ga and I bought him spray as well.

The bears may get us but they'll have to work for it!

The focus on hardware in this debate is impressive.

I'll admit that I have a certain affinity for hardware. But I am also cautious about inverted arguments, i.e., "This is the solution! Now what was the problem?"

So allow me a contrarian question: what is up with the bears? Why are they crunching on people this year? They don't act without a reason; that is inherently inefficient, and animals that survive are breathtakingly efficient.

A traveller who is fully attuned to the landscape he is walking through would, I imagine, be able to postulate some sort of facts-on-the-ground wisdom to solve this puzzle. Otherwise, he is just a clueless tourist.

So what is up with the bears?

Your brain is your best weapon. Understanding of the bears and knowledge of how to avoid them are with more than any weapon.

That said, if I need it, I vote for the close air support! I did encounter a bear in Alaska in 1982, but I was not alone, had a whole infantry company with me. That was when I learned that bears do not truly hibernate. This guy was HUGE, and smelled the hot food brought out to us in the field. It was late February and cold. He followed his nose and then realized he was inside our perimeter. We pulled everyone back and chased him out with grenade and artillery simulators. Not something I want to encounter in other circumstances.

We really thought that bears would not be a problem because they would be hibernating. Boy were we surprised.

Probably one thing that's "up" is that there are more bears due to conservation efforts and simultaneously more humans invading are their territory. Anecdotally I'm told that bears are having more contact nowadays with 1) campers and 2) researchers. The theory is that they're losing their fear of humans through repeated contacts and the fact that they're associating humans with food. Climate change may also be disrupting either their food supply or their general cycles of behavior. Spring is coming earlier and winter is coming later; that's bound to affect their feeding, mating, etc.

Knowledge is important but knowledgeable folks are also getting attacked. Some hardware is very helpful since bears can be unpredictable and they don't necessarily obey the dictates of experts.

Yep, if you go where the bears are, you must realize that you are not the top of the food chain, and they are territorial. You must understand the risks if you go there.

For what it's worth, my expertise in bears is pretty minimal beyond avoidance strategies (I could be characterized as an informed hiker), whereas I know quite a bit about handguns. Hopefully I haven't been argumentative.

Ditto. I know more about guns than bears! I have been reading everything I can and watching youtube videos (not by yahoos but stuff put out by parks and animal experts). Believe me, I have no desire to get up close and personal with one! If it happens the best result in having both the bear and us walk away safe and unharmed. But if it comes down to me or a bear I'm gonna pick me if I can help it!

Another thing that may be "up" is the use of and designs of the newer housing developments. (I am speaking from my observations in Virginia and Maryland USA). Post-WW2, housing developments would just level everything and put house after house. Local wildlife had to get out and stay out---there really was no place for them to survive.

But starting later in the 80s local county planning offices started requiring allocation of the original natural environment to remain in its original state. These areas are called various things: "green buffers, "conservation easements," etc. These area were designed to interconnect over a large area. Intentionally or not, they provided a natural highway (and sanctuary) for all sorts of creatures that would not normally be so close to us humans. Most notably, white tail deer use these areas. And (slowly) following the deer, bears.

I have one of these areas behind my present home, which on first look, would seem to be part of a well developed housing development. But out my back window, I often see Deer (many), Fox, Skunk and all of the usual smaller animals. I see no reason why a bear would not find this a nice place to create a home. Besides, there are all those tasty trash cans to explore. . .

"I see no reason why a bear would not find this a nice place to create a home. Besides, there are all those tasty trash cans to explore. . ."

The extreme examples of this trend would be some of our parks, like Yosemite, where many people camp in close proximity to nature (including bears). There they use bear proof garbage cans and take other measures to keep bears from regarding humans as a source of a cheap meal...

We have bears in North Central Florida and they must be miserable in the summer. I haven't seen any; local parks do have bear-proof containers similar to this one.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/a1I7KnGWh5Nu5IG62

Jeanette Isabelle

First there was the Spokane Spanker

http://nypost.com/2017/04/21/man-confesses-on-live-tv-to-being-the-spokane-spanker/

Now the Priest Lake swatter returns.
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/outdoors/...injuries-minor/

Another black bear/ human interaction at Priest lake Idaho.