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#279072 - 01/26/16 06:38 PM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: Tjin]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2986
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Tjin
I don't think shipping has issues at the moment. With the low oil prices the shipping company's are really investing in a lot of things to improve there operations.

Yes, the price of oil is low; the freight rates have taken a dive and it costs money to operate a ship.

Where are you hearing or reading shipping companies are investing to improve operations?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#279075 - 01/26/16 07:15 PM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Tjin Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/08/02
Posts: 1821
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Originally Posted By: Tjin
I don't think shipping has issues at the moment. With the low oil prices the shipping company's are really investing in a lot of things to improve there operations.

Yes, the price of oil is low; the freight rates have taken a dive and it costs money to operate a ship.

Where are you hearing or reading shipping companies are investing to improve operations?

Jeanette Isabelle


I'm employed in the training industry. Traditionally aimed at the fire, medical, police and emergency management sector. But we also doing industry and now are targeting the maritime industry. Maritime is apparently booming in investment, so the boss wants a piece of the pie. I’m not directly involved, but that’s what the maritime people at our place are saying.
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#279079 - 01/26/16 07:50 PM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: Tjin]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2986
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: Tjin
I'm employed in the training industry. Traditionally aimed at the fire, medical, police and emergency management sector. But we also doing industry and now are targeting the maritime industry. Maritime is apparently booming in investment, so the boss wants a piece of the pie. I’m not directly involved, but that’s what the maritime people at our place are saying.

As the links I provided indicate, this is a quick turn around as in weeks. How current is the information you are getting?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#279085 - 01/26/16 09:11 PM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Russ is correct. The Baltic Dry Index is at a record low.

There seems to be some confusion about what the Baltic Dry Index is, and what it means.

It is NOT a measure of how much stuff is being shipped. Rather it is a measure of the price of shipping stuff. Price, as always, is determined by supply and demand. "Supply" in this case is the number of ships available to move stuff. "Demand" is the amount of stuff people want to move. At present, the fleet of dry cargo ships is somewhat overbuilt (particularly by Chinese shipyards). And demand is somewhat down due to the slowing of the growth of the economy in China and other countries. A modest oversupply of ships coupled with a modest economic slowdown leads to a big drop in the index. Because ships are long term investments, it takes awhile before enough of the older ships in the world fleet are retired, so the supply side remains too big for a fairly long time, and hence the index stays low for a relatively long time.

Forbes has a nice article that explains this: Explaining The Baltic Dry Index Plunge: It's Supply, Not Demand.
Quote:
What the Baltic Dry is telling us is not that global trade has collapsed. Rather, that global trade isn’t growing as fast as the supply of ships capable of performing that global trade. Thus the price of trading has fallen.

Thus we don’t need to take this as an indication to batten down the hatches (unless we’re unfortunate enough to be ship owners) nor that the global economy is about to fall over. We don’t even need a public policy to deal with it. Low freight rates are great for the rest of us and the problem itself within the industry will be self solving. Some people will go bust, older ships will be scrapped and demand and supply will move closer together and the price will change again. This is precisely the sort of problem that the market unadorned deals with perfectly well.


Edited by AKSAR (01/26/16 09:15 PM)
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#279089 - 01/27/16 12:01 AM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 483
Loc: Somerset UK
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
I heard three theories on why this is happening. Regardless of the reason, if you're not stocked up, what are you waiting for? Store shelves will be bare.

Jeanette Isabelle


It is always sensible to keep a good reserve of emergency food, water, fuel, and other essentials. If possible also keep a reasonable stock of useful though not vital goods such as liquor, tobacco, confectionery and non perishable consumer goods in general.

However in this particular case I suspect that ships are idling at sea because the goods that they carry are not much in demand. If fewer consumer goods are being sold, then retailers will delay replenishment and wholesale suppliers will be left with excess stock. Importers may then lack either the money, or the physical storage space to accept more imports.

With the present low shipping rates it may make economic sense for ships to wait at sea until either another buyer for the cargo can be found, or until the original buyer belatedly has the money or the warehouse space to take the goods.

Any disruption to world trade is concerning, but in this case I suspect over supply or a slow down in demand, rather than shortages.
Still a good idea to stock up though, just in case.

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#279090 - 01/27/16 01:55 AM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: AKSAR]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2986
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
It is NOT a measure of how much stuff is being shipped. Rather it is a measure of the price of shipping stuff. Price, as always, is determined by supply and demand. "Supply" in this case is the number of ships available to move stuff. "Demand" is the amount of stuff people want to move. At present, the fleet of dry cargo ships is somewhat overbuilt (particularly by Chinese shipyards). And demand is somewhat down due to the slowing of the growth of the economy in China and other countries. A modest oversupply of ships coupled with a modest economic slowdown leads to a big drop in the index. Because ships are long term investments, it takes awhile before enough of the older ships in the world fleet are retired, so the supply side remains too big for a fairly long time, and hence the index stays low for a relatively long time.

Well said.

Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Forbes has a nice article that explains this: Explaining The Baltic Dry Index Plunge: It's Supply, Not Demand.
Quote:
What the Baltic Dry is telling us is not that global trade has collapsed. Rather, that global trade isn’t growing as fast as the supply of ships capable of performing that global trade. Thus the price of trading has fallen.

Thus we don’t need to take this as an indication to batten down the hatches (unless we’re unfortunate enough to be ship owners) nor that the global economy is about to fall over. We don’t even need a public policy to deal with it. Low freight rates are great for the rest of us and the problem itself within the industry will be self solving. Some people will go bust, older ships will be scrapped and demand and supply will move closer together and the price will change again. This is precisely the sort of problem that the market unadorned deals with perfectly well.

In a page I linked earlier says:

Quote:
In a normal market the rational decision would be to remove loss-making ships, but this is anything but normal. World shipping is drowning in debt. Ship owners who have financed their fleets with 60 per cent debt and 40 per cent equity have seen that equity become worthless, Kidwell says. The banks that provided the debt won't pull the plug because they would be forced to recognise the losses. They accept that they won't have debt service, and must wait and see if the owner can survive until the market recovers.

"What is damaging shipping is a zombie fleet, which accepts freight at maverick prices just to keep going," Kidwell says. A zombie ship is one that can make some contribution to interest payments on its debts, but has no hope of repaying the capital. The situation might be about to get a lot worse. The calculation of loan repayments and interest depend on the expected value of a ship at the end of the loan.

http://www.afr.com/business/transport/sh...20160124-gmd2iu

Quote:
“Ship owners are facing the tough decision of whether to just drop anchor and hope it gets better,” added Mr Penn.

Many trips are now loss-making as the cost of running a Capesize vessel, which at up to 340m is equivalent of almost four football fields in length, can run to $7,500 dollars a day.

The scrap value of ships has also plummeted as China pumps new steel onto world markets.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/12108...ing-memory.html

Sixty percent of the cost of a new ship is owed to the banks for ships that may not be worth its weight in steel (if we factor in the cost to scrap the ships). Therefore, shipping companies have to operate at a loss just to contribute to the interest.

Low freight rates are not great for us if the system we depend on can't sustain its self.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#279091 - 01/27/16 02:05 AM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: adam2]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2986
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: adam2
However in this particular case I suspect that ships are idling at sea because the goods that they carry are not much in demand. If fewer consumer goods are being sold, then retailers will delay replenishment and wholesale suppliers will be left with excess stock. Importers may then lack either the money, or the physical storage space to accept more imports.

With the present low shipping rates it may make economic sense for ships to wait at sea until either another buyer for the cargo can be found, or until the original buyer belatedly has the money or the warehouse space to take the goods.

As the links I provided indicate, that is not the reason ships are anchored. To summarize, ships that are moving are operating at a loss just to contribute to the interest, not the capital, of said ships.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#279092 - 01/27/16 02:40 AM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Jeanette_Isabelle
Low freight rates are not great for us if the system we depend on can't sustain its self.
Not sure why you are so worried? The weakest shipping companies will go bankrupt, and their assets will be sold. The oldest and least efficient ships will be sold for scrap. The newer and most desirable ships will be sold at a loss. The creditors will take a loss.

Meanwhile, the shipping companies with the strongest balance sheets will ride it out and survive. The strongest of them will pick up some of those discounted ships at a very good price, and use them to replace their older less efficient ships. When enough of the weaker companies go under, and enough of the older ships are scraped, the system will rebalance and rates will go up again. The surviving companies will be profitable again.

That's Econ 101. Welcome to life in the business world.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#279093 - 01/27/16 02:57 AM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: AKSAR]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2986
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Not sure why you are so worried? The weakest shipping companies will go bankrupt, and their assets will be sold. The oldest and least efficient ships will be sold for scrap. The newer and most desirable ships will be sold at a loss. The creditors will take a loss.

Meanwhile, the shipping companies with the strongest balance sheets will ride it out and survive. The strongest of them will pick up some of those discounted ships at a very good price, and use them to replace their older less efficient ships. When enough of the weaker companies go under, and enough of the older ships are scraped, the system will rebalance and rates will go up again. The surviving companies will be profitable again.

I see some of that happening some time in the future (I explained why we may not be seeing ships scrapped). What are we going to do in the meantime?

What it will mean for us when banks take a loss is only speculation at this time.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#279096 - 01/27/16 03:09 PM Re: Cargo Ships Not Moving [Re: adam2]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
Originally Posted By: adam2
It is always sensible to keep a good reserve of emergency food, water, fuel, and other essentials. If possible also keep a reasonable stock of useful though not vital goods such as liquor, tobacco, confectionery and non perishable consumer goods in general.


We all have the essentials, but it's hard for me to figure out what to stock up in case of a global shipping slowdown. The only thing I can think of is electronics. But I'm just one person. How many iPhones do I need?

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