Hi Guys,<br><br>I've been reading a little about the US Military sleepingbag system with innerbag, outerbag and Goretex bivy sack.<br>Besides it being rather heavy as some people say, how does it perform does anyone use it ?<br><br>Is there some place to get one for an affordable price? in Holland an only a Goretex bivy bag will set you back between $180 and $300, not to mention the prices we can pay for a mummy style sleepingbag, up to and over $400.<br><br>With these figures, weight for me is less important then $$ as I'm not carrying that thing for months on my back but often take the car to were our scouts camp etc.<br><br>Any info, suggestions, tips, places where to get one "cheap" are welcome.<br><br>In Holland the militarty use the Nato sleepingbag which also has a Goretex bivy sack but only consists of one sleeping bag and inner cotton detachable liner so you don't mess up the bag itself with your dirty socks/boots . It comes with a cammo compression sack.<br><br>Still the 2 bags principle appeals to me.<br><br>Best Scouting wishes from Holland,<br><br>Bagheera<br>

bagheera, glad to have you back :O). I just recieved a mini bushman (Iive in Cold Steel's county) For the money they can't be beat. The powder coating eventually wears off. It is no better or worse than blueing unless you reconfigure the blade angle. Then it is a bother, clogging stones. Coil some paracord and push into the hollow. Friction will keep it there. You can use any NATO issue liner for your poncho. They are interchangeable. I have the German Flecktar and a friend's U.S. issue fits perfectly. I don't like Goretex, there have been cases of suffocation (see www.wiggies.com)

What Chris said. It's www.wiggys.com. Lots to say about Goretex and the military bag system. I own a wiggy's bag and it performs as advertised.

I have found them here in Texas for $170.00 complete at gun shows. Bought one for my wife and one for my daughter. They love the flexibility, but it has not been cold enough to really test their insulating qualities. I personally use the old extreme cold down-synthetic mix military bag. Spent numerous nights under the stars without tent or tarp in 20 deg. F, and stayed warm. The two drawbacks are the weight, which is around 10 pounds, and they are not waterproof. The Wiggy bags sound good but reviews have been 50/50. Wish Doug would do a test. Then we would know the truth.

I started out with a premium down bag. I still have it, but years of repeat compression and soiling have taken a toll. I tried the moisture barrier system as promoted by Stephenson. Warm? Yes, and when you crawl out that sweat chills you while towelling off and dressing.Modern materials are very good, but they do wear out and collect water ( ice). The Wiggy is a heavier system. It is machine washable, regains loft vey well and has a superb garantee and customer support. The only complaint I've heard is again the weight ( ultralight backpackers). Would you rather have a balsa wood and aluminum knife?

I do not like Goretex (or any other waterproof) bag covers in temperatures a little below freezing. The 0 degree C isotherm will be inside the bag insulation until the temperatures get very low (dpending on the bag and the sleeper's metabolism), so ice just forms in the insulation anyway. <br><br>Although I have not personally used the ECWS bag system, I am pretty confident that the relationships between the inner and outer bags are about the same as they always have been with US Army two-bag systems. I have extensively used both the QM curled-chicken feather bags and the synthetic/QM feather bags in Alaska and in the Pacific NW Rainforest, which may be more like your normal climate.<br><br>They are robust bags and work well. If you are mostly car camping with the scouts, they are fine. IMHO, you will not need the over bag. A single intermediate condition bag should do fine (add your poncho liner inside if you get a little chilly). They are all a bit bulky (and heavy), but they certainly CAN be backpacked, as I and tens of thousands of others can attest.<br><br>These bags will take more abuse than commercial bags (go figure). And after you get used to the zipper on top (seems normal to me), side zip bags seem wierd <grin>.<br><br>My opinion is that they are proportionally heavier if soaked than commercial counterparts - I am assuming because the cotton componets absorb significantly more water than nylon.<br><br>Like I said, they should be super for car camping, and if you do not mind the bulk and weight, they are packable.<br><br>Hope that helps.<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Tom Ayers

I have actually used the modular sleep system that you are talking about for the last four years during 100+ degree summers to some very cold bosnian winters. The system perfoms very well and my only complaint is that with both bags and the bivy is still rather bulky when packed compared to a down bag.

What I've done is go with a 10 degree bag and a polypro liner/warm-waether bag that I made myself (if you can use a sewing machine, it's a quarter the cost- buy your polypro, fold it, then stitch another layer on top of that for added airspace), and an air pad. It's nice down to about 0 in a well built snow cave, and tolerable to about -15 in a well wind-breaked tent. I've never been out any colder than that, so it may not be it's lowest limit.

Just to curtail any confusion here..<br><br>I believe Bagheera is speaking of the NEW modular sleep system. The two bags have synthetic shells with synthetic fill. I don't think he's talking about that nasty old green cotton sponge.<br><br>Bagheera, it if IS the new MSS that you're talking about, I can tell you that I was impressed with it. It was definitely one of the best gear items I had when I was in the Army. My strongest impression of it was when I was at Fort Polk, Louisiana in January. Using the black bag, green bag, and goretex shell, I slept through an ice storm without realizing how bad the weather was. This was completely in the open with no extras except for a sleeping pad and polypro longjohns.<br><br>In the morning I had to break the ice of the goretex shell before I could get it into my rucksack.<br><br>If I happened to see one of these systems at a surplus store or a gunshow, I'd buy one (unless the price was completely outrageous).

Hi Eric C.,<br><br>Yep I'm talking about the NEW sleeping bag system not the old one.<br><br>I have at the moment a very old Dutch Military sleeping bag which consists of a bag with a coated lower shell that is waterproof and an upper non coated shell and the whole thing is filled with down/feathers (no fancy 90% goose down here). <br>It has a removable cotton inner liner and the whole sack just folds up and rolls into itself with as last thing the "hood" going over the rolled up bag covering all non coated parts of the sack with the waterproof stuff.<br>I think the English had the same model a long time ago.<br><br>This one is not really acceptable at low temperatures even below 32 degrees Fahrenheit it starts to become unpleasant.<br><br>I'm trying to get an military friend to selll me his brand new last model Dutch sleeping bag system which is in fact the last US sleeping bag system only the goretex shell is OD instead of cammo colors.<br><br>Through some administrative dumbo's in the Army he got 2 full and completely new personal equipement outfits, from socks to tent and they only know of one of them .<br>I'm bugging him for this sleeping bag and with some luck I can buy it from him.<br><br>Eric, thanks for the recommendation of the bag.<br><br>Best Scouting wishes from Holland,<br><br>Bagheera