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#278497 - 01/04/16 10:51 PM Predator Pit [Re: Treeseeker]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
"Just what is a “Predator Pit”?

Wolf researchers have come to use the term when referring to an area where predators have pulled prey populations down so low that recovery of those populations is impossible, unless there is a drastic reduction in the number of predators. The situation results from how predators affect prey numbers in two different ways. One is the manner in which predators, especially wolves, kill far more adult prey animals than needed to survive, commonly referred to as “surplus killing”. The second is the destruction of the prey age class, due to the loss of newborn young of the year. And the loss of that recruitment can be either due to outright killing of fawns and calves in the spring (with excessive surplus killing), or due to the stress predators (especially wolves) place on pregnant females in winter, causing them to abort their fetuses. In the classic predator pit situation, a rising number of predators results in a constant decline in prey numbers, with the average age of surviving prey animals becoming older and older with each passing year – to the point that reproductive growth becomes impossible and the prey base begins to die off from old age.

This accurately describes the situation in much of the Northern Rocky Mountains of Montana, Idaho and Wyoming today.

- See more at: http://www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/06/07/are-the-northern-rockies-in-a-predator-pit/#sthash.ffYQMhTT.dpuf"

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#278499 - 01/04/16 11:01 PM Re: Predator Pit [Re: Outdoor_Quest]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
"Theoretical models show that persistence of predators and prey at relatively stable levels (or equilibria) is likely only when prey populations are resource-limited and the prey have a refuge where they are safe from predation. "


http://www.nap.edu/read/5791/chapter/6#87

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#278520 - 01/05/16 11:55 AM Re: Wolves [Re: hikermor]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: MN, Land O' Lakes & Rivers ...
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Here is a useful link discussing the wolf/moose relationship on Isle Royale - very interesting - it is a lot more complex that I realized. http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/overview/overview/at_a_glance.html

I spend two weeks on Isle Royale in the 1980's and saw exactly one moose....


There are some important differences between Isle Royale habitat and the habitat that exists in moose country in NE Minn. Wolves are primary predators in winter when they can easily traverse the frozen swampy habitat of the moose. One of the summer predators of moose calf are black bears, also overly abundant in MN. Wolves are not dependent on moose for survival in the mainland, a calf is just an easier mark.

The presence of whitetails and other smaller prey animals along with human activity on the mainland alters the equation. Wolves can decimate the moose, which have a more restricted habitat, and then move to whitetail fawns and does, which can live almost anywhere in the state. Logging and mining companies have cut roads into wilderness areas that the wolves use to access moose country. Walk any tote road and you see wolf tracks. In the winter in deep snow, you see bloody kills on the groomed snowmobile trails where they can artificially run as fast as a deer.

With human activity factored in, there is no natural balance. Wolves are not dying out with the moose, they are increasing to record numbers and also increasing pack size, and ranging farther out under the protection of the federal government to kill other prey.
_________________________
The man got the powr but the byrd got the wyng

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#278521 - 01/05/16 12:02 PM Re: Wolves [Re: Treeseeker]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: MN, Land O' Lakes & Rivers ...
Originally Posted By: Treeseeker
Quote:
Wolves have decimated the moose population in Minnesota. Recent official numbers prove that the wolf is largely responsible for the dramatic decline in the moose population of NE Minnesota.


This may be true and if so it would indicate that there were no significant predators for the moose and thus they were above the normal population for a balanced ecosystem.

Once the moose population declines to a certain level, the wolf population will also decline due to lack of food.

On the flip side, overpopulation of the moose will have a negative effect on their food source (in this case, specific plants). As their food source becomes scarce the moose population will begin to decline just as the wolves.


True in areas of limited resources. You would enjoy a visit to Murphy City or Isabella MN in the heart of MN moose country. You would be amazed at the abundance of wild spaces and perfect habitat that a million moose couldn't degrade. This habitat extends nearly unbroken for hundreds of miles into Canada.

There have always been wolves in MN, but with new roads and trails due to recreation, logging, mining, and remote land leases by new foreign owners of legacy paper company forests, they have artificial access to moose, especially in winter. Wolves are not dying back with the moose. On the contrary, they are increasing to record numbers and killing different animals, in larger packs, over a greater range.
_________________________
The man got the powr but the byrd got the wyng

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#278535 - 01/05/16 06:03 PM Re: Wolves [Re: Byrd_Huntr]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Byrd_Huntr
There have always been wolves in MN, but with new roads and trails due to recreation, logging, mining, and remote land leases by new foreign owners of legacy paper company forests, they have artificial access to moose, especially in winter. Wolves are not dying back with the moose. On the contrary, they are increasing to record numbers and killing different animals, in larger packs, over a greater range.

Wow....those Minnesota wolves need roads to get around? Who would have thought?

What do the wolves drive? Motorcycles? Or maybe Humvees?
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#278551 - 01/05/16 10:36 PM Re: Wolves [Re: AKSAR]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: MN, Land O' Lakes & Rivers ...
They are pretty well fed, so it seems they scraped together enough hides to buy a pick up truck...


Attachments
truck.jpg


_________________________
The man got the powr but the byrd got the wyng

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#278553 - 01/05/16 11:11 PM Re: Wolves [Re: AKSAR]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Originally Posted By: Byrd_Huntr
There have always been wolves in MN, but with new roads and trails due to recreation, logging, mining, and remote land leases by new foreign owners of legacy paper company forests, they have artificial access to moose, especially in winter. Wolves are not dying back with the moose. On the contrary, they are increasing to record numbers and killing different animals, in larger packs, over a greater range.

Wow....those Minnesota wolves need roads to get around? Who would have thought?

What do the wolves drive? Motorcycles? Or maybe Humvees?


That's how the bobcats have outcompeted the lynx in WA and ID. They use snowmobile tracks to access habitat that in the past only the fluffy footed lynx could travel.

The wolves and cars are doing in the Mtn Caribou too. Last count there were only 4 in the US.

"The South Selkirks contained a minimum of 27 caribou in 2012, with 4 of these observed in the U.S., down from 36 in 2011 and 43 in 2010. "
http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/endangered/species/woodland_caribou.pdf


Edited by clearwater (01/05/16 11:24 PM)

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#278647 - 01/08/16 05:51 AM Re: Wolves [Re: Outdoor_Quest]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
We declared war on the coyote-Kong long ago. Ever since they killed grandma's kitty on the back porch. Sure is quite a sight to watch a pack of greyhounds run down a pair of coyotes out in the open stubble of eastern Washington. Up here you can hunt wolves regularly. The time to do something about maintaining a wolf population in the lower 48 was before they were exterminated. Reintroducing non-indigenous species will lead to catastrophe.

We kill all we can find.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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