This is my first post, so I'll tell you all a little about myself. I was born and raised in Northern California. I am currently in the U.S. Air Force and stationed in Florida. I am a Aircraft Comm/Nav/Mission systems specialist, which basically means I perform maintenance on avionics, I am not a fly-boy. I have had at least a slight interest in survival for a couple of years now. But my interest has only deepened since I found this site about a year ago. Most of my questions I have been able to find the answers to by searching through the forums. However I have a question I haven't found much about.

When you get a new knife what torture tests do you put it through to see if it's worthy enough to be carried in the field? I have a couple of different knives, but I don't know which I would want to carry into the country or throw into a BOB. I just got the book "Bushcraft" by Mors Kochanski and the section on Knife craft has some good ideas. However, I want to know what you guys here at ETS do to test the quality of a knife. Also, how do you put a folding knife through it's paces? I here so much on this forum about testing gear. I also hear a lot about how knives can be the most important tool for survival. However not much is said about testing this most important piece of equipment.

Also, I have a survival story of my own. When I was about 2-3 years old I was camping on Mt. Rainier in Washington state. I was hiking with my sister and just after we left camp I decided to return. It wasn't far so my sister left me walk back alone. I ended up getting lost and wandered around the mountain for something like 3-4 hours. <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I was only found because I wandered across a road as some rangers were driving by. I was very lucky. I was not properly clothed, equipped, or trained. I think this is why I am interested in survival. I don't want a repeat performance. The funny thing is I don't remember feeling scared. All I remember is telling my sister I was going back to camp, and I remember some of the beautiful scenery while wandering the forest.

Sorry for the long post but I appreciate all of your help in advance.
Robert

Rbruce:

I tend to buy knives that have some usefulness or beauty of construction to them, and I don't torture test them.

I have seen some of Cold Steel's advertisements for the strength of thier products and I for one am not impressed. The ability to pound a knife into a tree and hang "X" number of pounds on the handle really has no practical benefit for me. If I want to pry something (Except for snorkeling, where a combination knife, pry bar for mussels would be practical.), it is going to be with a pry bar or some type of lever. If I am going to pound something, it is going to be with a hammer, rock, hard wood, or scrap metal.

The knives I buy most frequently have to be able to cut well and sharpen easily. I prefer carbon steel blades because I have always been able to put a nice edge on them in less time, with less sophisticated sharpeners than with stainless blades blades.

The one brand of knives that I definitly stay away from is Kershaw, because so many of my friends have had the tips snap off with very little effort.

Bountyhunter

The oldest piece of western literature is The Illiad of Homer. It is full of battles in which bronze weapons were broken and bent. Before that we have Oetzi with his copper axe and a flint dagger broken in combat and covered with someone's blood. My first sheathknife, the infamous Ontario/Camillus AF survival snapped during arctic survival school. ALL knives are subject to catastrophic failure. My own Fallkniven is. I know this, because Peter of Fallkniven has his knives laboratory tested to determine when they will. Luckly, rational use of a knife will rarely duplicate such stresses. I don't chop cinderblocks or stab cardoors. I did get a wierd patina from some smelly english cheese and my cat upchucked a sloppy hairball on the sheath <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. I finally figured out what I DIDN'T want in a knife; guthooks,sawbacks,skeleton handles et al and what I NEEDED; a good grip, easily sharpened blade and a sheath that works. Then it was simply a matter of reading the various knifeforums, Doug's article and benefiting from other's experience. There has been a real rennaissance in metallurgy since I broke that AFSK. Still, I think Brad Pitt, er, Achilles would have loved a sword stamped Ontario <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

first of all it has to feel right, if a knife doesn't feel like a big solid peice of steel, i won't use it for any hard work. Chopping thats is, i don't really abuse mine equipment. I had knife's which proberbly would easily shop branches and stuff, but didn't feel solid enough, so i never use them. Mine "paranoia" of breaking mine knife's insures me that i got very thick, solid knife's which will definatly not break wenn i use it. The thinner steels just get the easy jobs, like mine attemps to carve spoons, which somehow always ends up more like a toothpick...

as for folders, i don't own much. Just a opinel and a Swith and wesson. But i can tell you that if i needed to test a folding knife's i would simpely bring in to mine work and use it. It will see a LOT cardbox boxes and some of them has some nice ceramic, steel or other hard things in it, which i "cut" very frequently. Mine knife blade ( smith and wesson cuttin' horse )needs to be sharpend after every 1 or 2 user days. I have also lost mine thumbstuds ( now a small bolt and 3 tiny nuts and tape ), the bolts are all damaged from the countless take-a-part actions, massive amount of scratches. SO i guess that would be one heck of a test. And ofcorse it's always funny to to see mine people trying to close the knife after they borowed it... I have shown them how to unlock it, but somehow they just forget and try all kinds of way to close it. ehh... pressing the logo won't help !

I don't torture my knives, but I like to read the data from people who do <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/index.html

David

David,
I like that link. That makes for some interesting reading.

Maybe "torture testing" was a poor choice of words in my original post. Let me rephrase. What are some tasks you would expect a survival knife to be able to accomplish? Also, do you try to experiment in your backyard before deciding whether a knife is good or not? You all made some good points, and I will take that all into consideration. I guess in the end knife choice is a personal thing, but I want to know if a knife is going to perform before I throw it into a BOB. Thanks.

Robert

What do I expect from a knife... That's an interesting question.

I have basically 3 "classes" of cutting tools.

1 - Chopper.
That one gets the ugly job done. Chopping down trees for fire, shelter, digging, prying a little (yes... I know). This one is not always carried as survival gear, but depending on the situation, it does. For that kind of use, I want a tough knife... Edge retention is useful, but toughness is the most important, so I stick either to soft carbon steels (Tramontina machete), or tough blade geometries (tomahawk, hatchet...). I also use a Becker Brute (BK1) with modified geometry (ground to a pretty wide scandi edge) regularly.

2 - General purpose knife.
That's always a fixed blade. It's not meant for chopping or prying, so toughness is not a real issue, and 4 inches of blade or so is more than enough. I like them tough, but the primary thing is sharpness and edge retention. I want them to be good cutters, and I want them to keep an edge. The best I've had so far are Scandinavian grinds. They really are worth a try. I use a Mora #1 (I prefer KJ Eriksson's) or a Frost's #780 clipper (for 9-10$ and at way over 60RC, they're VERY hard to beat). Swamp Rat knives with modified edge would be even better. They're tough as nails (and warranty is unbeatable).

3 - Backup.
Either just another Mora, or a good folder. Full flat ground, hard, tough steel, and reliable lock. Above all: tough moving parts. I like Benchmades, but honestly I mostly use Opinels.

Some general thoughts: I like a sharp back angle to scrape my firesteels. Of course, a comfy handle (without knuckle shapes or anything... just a good, soft yet allowing a good grip, oval handle) is a must on any knife/chopper.

Hope this helps...

Cheers,

David

Testing a Knife? Yes, I do that.

When I get a new knife, I spend considerable time “testing” its suitability for my applications. My form of testing is probably different from how others test, but it works for me. What I do, in general terms is to try to duplicate those things which I have done with other knives and which I will probably do again with this knife.

For a fixed blade, my testing is a bit extreme, for I am of the “sharpened pry-bar” school. Unlike Chris, I do punch holes in car doors. We needed to transport a large quantity of “special equipment” consisting of coolers, ice, chairs, and similar items a long distance over soft sand. We had a 4x4 ATV, but it had no carrying capacity. We needed a “sled”. In Baja Mx, it seems that if you take the doors off a vehicle, it does not need to be licensed. Therefore, finding a car door on a beach is quite common. The one we found did not have a window frame and there was no easy way to attach the door to the ATV. At the time, I was “testing” a Becker Crewman (BK-10), a rather robust fixed blade.

The drop point aligns a driving force nicely along the center of the blade. So when I put the point on the metal door and smacked the handle, the point did not skip up, like the traditional bowie point will, but cut a nice slot in the metal door. Two more smacks and I had a “U” shaped hole. Three more and another hole was cut along the latch edge of the door where there was a strong steel frame. We wrapped a chain thru the holes and our improvised sled began a week’s work of transporting “special equipment”.

I did not check the sharpness before and after the above. I am sure it dulled it considerably, but it was easier to sharpen the knife than carry the “special equipment”.

There have been many other tests, some it failed, like cutting carrots. I use an “oriental” style quick chop. The blade thickness snaps the carrot and sends the cut piece on a ballistic journey with considerable force. Kinda like a carrot machine gun.

The point is, that you need to decide how YOU use a knife and play around duplicating the anticipated uses. Carry the knife as much as you can. Look at every task as a chance to test the knife. I have had the BK-10 for over a year now and it has had considerable “testing”. Mostly now it resides in my hiking pack, which I grab every time we wander far from the vehicle. I have modified the grip and also the sheath. It has passed my “tests”, and in the process I learned its strengths and limitations. It comes naturally to hand and has earned its place in my pack.

Nomad

I've just stopped using fixed blade knives to chop anything. Frankly, even in the field with an urgent need for shelter, I wouldn't "chop". The saw on my SAK will cut anything I need to use for shelter. Anything I need to use for a fire wouldn't need to be chopped. In routine situations I have a small hatchet or Kukri.

I have knives of numerous cost, material, edge geometry, etc. I just use them. I end up carrying a limited few which just feel right and work right, but strangely that seems to have nothing to do with any of the technical aspects I would have tested if I were a bladecrafter. So.. the only test I make of the knife itself is to take it along on numerous "safe and easy" trips, use it, and decide how I feel about it. Before I take it off into the wilderness.

I do, however, test the SHEATH or (if a folder) the pouch. I go out in the yard and try every way I can to bump, jostle, shake, and sling the knife system around. If it comes out of the sheath or pouch before I actually want it to... the whole system gets looked at again. Knives don't go with me until I satisfy myself that they will stay with me.. safely..(not stuck thru a sheath into my butt!)

I wonder: how many actual blade/edge failures vs.RETENTION failures? What do you guys think?

I experienced knives slipping out of the sheath or pouch. Hence I test the system before I buy the knife. Some of the sales people were not really happy when they saw the knife drop on the counter. They were even less happy when they learned that this was sufficient to reject the knife.

Nordic knives don't slip out of their sheaths. Losing a knife in the taiga is too much a serious matter. In fact, losing a knife anywhere is not good.

I agree that loosing a knife is a bad thing. If you have knife with a wooden handle and a leather sheath the tolerances in manufacturing may still be big enough to allow it to slip out of the sheath. After all both materials tend to change size slightly when they dry or collect moisture. I´ve seen knives of one type where the fit in the sheath for the specimen varied from really loose to much too tight. This is why I prefer to buy where I can pick one that´s just right.

If natural materials expand and contract so much, and therefore rely on the quality of build, it makes me wonder...
Would, in your opinion, having a knife with a manmade handle with a man made sheath be preferable?
What are the advantages (apart from asthetics) in having natural materials?

Natural materials or synthetic are equally prone to specific environmental wear. Some manmade handle composites may be vulnerable to chemicals, ie DEET, various petroleum fuels, utraviolet light and simple heat. Various natural materials,ie. bone,wood and leather can dry out, rot , fracture from impact or even succumb to damage from animals seeking salt, calcium,fats etc. Natural materials can be stabilised with dressings, such as beeswax or manmade coatings such as varathane, laquers etc. Either material can be fashioned into superior tools with relatively little maintenance required. like any tool, 5 minutes of daily care eliminates 5 hours of repair.

Joblot,

I've had several bad experiences with natural materials. I've owned the Air Force Survival Knife, Kabars, Randall (bought used actually, it already had been fairly abused) and numerous hunting/skinning knives with either natural material handles or sheaths. I've enjoyed them all, and they all have thier place, but in a survival knife, I'd much rather have synthetic/man made materials.

I've been poked in the leg during a tirp and fall incident where my kabar went through the sheath. The handle on my AFSK began to rot and mildew despite my trying to care for it with oils and proper leather conditioning materials. And I've had several stag handles on skinning knives either chip, break, or split altogeather from simple drops.

Keep in mind, I use my knives a lot. Although lately I haven't seen the need for a fixed blade survival knife while carrying a quality locking folder (and usually several other folding impliment like Leatherman Wave, or SAKs.) and a quality machete.

When I do choose to carry a fixed blade it is the USMC Ka-Bar Next Generation. The reason for this is that everything is synthetic. Handles, sheath, everything. And they're reasonable priced so I'm not afraid to carry it afield.

I do totally agree that the natural materials are much better to look at and feel. My KaBar is often cold, and always a bit ugly. But the bottom line for me is reliability.

Thoughts, anyone?

--Luke

Wood handles with an oil finish offer a warm feeling and IMHO a better grip than hard plastic handles and are more robust than kraton. A leather sheath can be repaired more easily in the field than a manmade sheath. My personal favorite for handles is baltic birch as it combines the advantages of manmade and natural material. For the sheath I tend to prefer kydex as it offers more protection than leather.
The shrinkage or expansion of the natural materials is not really dramatic. It can however cause problems in combination with the quality of the build. When you know about the potential problems you can deal with them.

I carry three knives with me everyday, and use them regularly. The first is my Case folding Masonic knife. Open it measures about 3 inches long. It is great for precision work. The next is a Leatherman Wave. This is also my primary service tool for most of my work. It is adequate 90% of the time for fixing electronics equipment. For the hard work, I use a Kabar folding linerlock with intl orange handle. It has an integral belt clip and the stainless is what I would call superior. It handles RG-8 and large coax very well, without rolling or chipping the edge. The blade is less than 4", which is a restriction due to the work environment. It is ergonomically correct for my hand. I have dropped it in the brush 3 times now and due to the flourescent orange handle have had no trouble in expediently locating it. This was not the case with it's predecessor. BTW, the Kabar cost me @ $7.00 new from smoky mtn knife works (yes, a plug, but still a good deal). The Wave was about $60 at Costco. The Case was a gift but probably less than $20. I have about 2 dozen various other hunting, survival and pocketknives, which I can add to my survival kit as the needs suit me. Really, though, I feel quite comfortable with what I have on me.