Hello everyone,

Hope everyone had or is having a good holiday. I have another gear question for the ETS collective. It may also prove relevant to BPJ's recent thread on prepping for the Pacific Coast Trail. I didn't want to hi-jack her thread so figured I'd start a new one.

Specifically, I am looking for a compact sleeping bag option. What I have in mind is a bag rated for cold temps in the 0 to 30 degrees Fahrenheit range (I am generally cold-blooded so in this respect the warmer the better lol) that will pack down to a reasonably compact size so as not to take up too much space in my backpack. We have a potentially cold weather camp out coming up January 8th, as well as a 25 mile backpacking trip coming up in April. I need this bag to be useful in cold temps, as well as in warmer temps if possible (in my mind, a cold weather bag can be used in warmer weather by venting and not using the mummy feature as I have done this in the past with our current Coleman cold weather mummy bags).

Currently I am considering these two options. One is the Snugpak Travelpak 4. Another option I am considering is this one currently on woot, the Beaume -25 mummy bag.

Standard disclaimers apply, I have no affiliations with any of the companies above other than asa relatively happy customer.

Now, I am familiar with the Snugpak brand and have heard and read lots of good things about them so I am leaning more towards that option. The Beaume bag is tempting because of it's lower temp rating but I'm not familiar with the brand. Also I'm not sure it packs down as small (9 x 9 x15 for the Beaume vs 11 x 10 for the Snugpak).

I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts and recommendations here. All input is welcome, whether I am missing the boat on anything, other recommendations and so forth.

As always thanks in advance.

If you want compact and warm, you want a decent down bag. Marmot, Kelty, and REI are good sources, but they are not the only options.

"Light, warm, cheap" - choose two out of three

Well said. If you do not mind heavier, Wiggy's makes good bags that will keep you warm even when wet.

What are your priorities?

First pick an insulating material:
Down (quality down)
- Best warm/weight/size ratio
- Useless when wet (However newer upmarket ones have water resistant down)
- When stored properly it will last a very long time.

Synthetic:
- Less expensive
- Not as useless in the wet
- Doesn’t last as long

Second, choose size/cut:
- Mummy style are lighter and smaller to pack. If size and weight is a big priority, choose one with the narrowest and shortest you can comfortably lie in.
- Rectangular can be more comfortable.

Third, choose shell material:
- Light is generally less durable
- Water-resistant/waterproof shell materials are available, at a price. Both money and size/weight wise.

Personally I like the size/weight ratio of downbags and there great durability. Currently still using one from 1992, some cold spots have developt. Still need to think if I want to refill those pockets or get a new bag.

The Beaume and snugpak you linked to. Could not find what the -25 rating is. Comfort or extreme and tested to which standard. Might be the convertion between fahrenheit and celcius, but the snugpak look like a much less warm bag then the Beaume. (a quality down bag would weight about half, but 3x as expensive)

Great thread, Mark! Thanks!

Is that -25F or 25F?

A medium quality synthetic Mummy bag weighing in at 2.1Kg will have a comfort rating of -4C (25F) rather than -32C (-25F)

I recently purchased a PHDesign Mimum 500 sleeping bag rated at -10C comfort (EN 13537 standard) using certified 900 Down and MX water resist outer fabric, which I got on sale just before Christmas saving aroung $150 off the retail price. A very warm Sub Kg Winter bag. It wasn't as compact as I hoped for due to the extreme fluffiness getting it into an Event Stuff sack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

The Snugpak rating of comfort -7C for the Travelpak 4 will also be to the EN 13537.
http://www.snugpak.com/outdoor/travelpak-4

The Military spec Softie 10 bag will be better than the Travelpak-4. Its the Milspec Softie range of bags that Snugpak has built its reputation on.

http://www.snugpak.com/military/military-sleeping-bags/softie-10-harrier-sleeping-bag

Remove the 'compact' requirement by bunjeeing the bag to the top of your sac (and the mat to the side). I'v a sac with no top straps, or attachement points. But bunjees can reach over the top to hook on the straps.

qjs

+1. A Wiggy's bag will be slightly heavier but you will sleep warm no matter what.

Worked at a school where we used sleeping bags by the hundreds. They were used 3 weeks at a time then laundered. All synthetic 20 Degree bags.

Most were earlier versions of:
Kelty, Wiggy's, Slumberjack, a few NorthFace.

They all performed the same warmth wise. And they all were toast after a couple of seasons and then good only for warm weather.

I use a 3 season down bag and add a synthetic over bag or half bag with jacket for consistent below freezing temps. The down bags last for decades.

One sure killer of synthetic bags - drying with high heat. You can measure the shrinkage in length and loft after one hot dryer run. Best to air dry, maybe tumble low heat or without heat a few minutes before storage.

look at treated down and use liners for cooler nights - send em home as things warm up

So they mostly fail by being overheated/shrunk/loss of loft?

You can also boost the performance of a sleeping bag using a set of down trousers and down gilet, which helps gets around the problem of being to warm for the first couple of hours of sleep then being to cold 4 hours later.

I will also bring along an over sized gilet along with me (Big enough to also get my arms inside). You can sometimes get a lot of down for not too much money. My Karrimor Sub zero gilet cost me around $50 in a sale.

http://www.karrimor.com/karrimor-sub-zero-down-gilet-mens-443974?colcode=44397469

Down Trousers are also available

http://www.jack-wolfskin.co.uk/atmosphere-pants-men/1501141.html

They are very useful if you need to leave the tent to go for a middle of the night time pee.

No, the bags were washed and line dried.

Learned about the dryer issue while working with a court program that had inmates do laundry including sleeping bags. They were trying to get things done quickly. When we got the brand new sub zero size long bags back, they looked like summer bags for short people. And kind of lumpy. Like the WW2 chicken feather bags with the chickens still attached. (tip of the hat to Patrick McManus, a fine and pleasant misery

hehe
so, on the line dried formerly sub-zero now summer-only bags,
any guesses as to why they don't work as well anymore? Holes? Just flattening (loft loss)?

You are giving examples of sleeping bag abuse. When you spend significant money ($500 and up)it is a safe bet you will give it much better care. My best bag lasted me nineteen years and was still a sub zero bag when it was stolen. Its successor,bought in 1983, is still giving good service. I still use a double bag (down)that is more than fifty years old.

To be clear, inexpensive 20 degree synthetic bags, used constantly for about 10 months, compressed tightly daily and washed in commercial machine then line dried every 3 weeks, lost enough loft that students became cold when used in shoulder season mountaineering.

The shrinking sub zero bags were another time and place. The inmates also managed to shrink polyester long johns. Interestingly, wool surplus army pants survived the enthusiastic cleaning regime without shrinkage. Perhaps they were already as small as they were to get.

My wife has the down bag, REI, that was her mom's engagement present from the early 60's and it is still the warmest bag we own.

For those looking for inexpensive down and synthetic jackets, I see Uniqlo has some for about $60-$70.

http://www.uniqlo.com/us/

I have probably 500 nights on my oldest Wiggy's bag, and I have it unzipped and use it on my bed as a comforter, too. It's been washed and dried many times and hasn't lost any loft. The company has learned that some detergents can zap the loft but they will replace or repair any bag, no matter how old, forever. I suppose I'm a fanboy but I can't see how you beat a forever warranty in a bag as good as a Wiggy's bag.

That sounds like great way of having terrible balance, ripped and wet sleeping bags and pads. Don't strap thing on the outside. It's terrible for balance and they are not well protected from the elements.

General sleeping bag tips:

Buy a sleeping bag rated for the temperatures you most often expect, not the coldest you expect.

Your choice of ground pad is a major contributor to both your warmth and your comfort while sleeping, and is no less important than your choice of bag. Budget accordingly.

In colder weather, polypro long johns, a beanie, warm socks and maybe a jacket can dramatically lower the useful temperature of your sleeping bag.

Wearing clean clothing to sleep in also helps keep your bag cleaner, and reduces the need for washing, potentially prolonging your bag's lifespan. A Coolmax t-shirt, undies and liner socks weigh only a few ounces.

Down usually lasts longer than synthetics, often much longer if well cared for. When waterlogged, synthetics are warmer than down, although very far from warm. Plan how you intend to keep your bag dry.

Never try to lift up or wring out a bag soaked from either rain or washing; the additional water weight, unsupported, can destroy the internal structures of the bag. Lay it out flat or over something that will support it, like a tent, to dry it.

Thoroughly air out a sleeping bag after every trip, and store it in a roomy breathable bag, NEVER in a stuff sack. Try to air it out every morning during your hike, and remove it as soon as possible from its stuff sack when you arrive in camp each night, which allows it time to reach its full loft and warmth.

Pay careful attention to manufacturer or expert instructions for washing and drying your bag. A mistake here can ruin your bag. Do it yourself to get it done right, and never use a dry cleaner or dryer.

I've never found rectangular bags to be any more comfortable than mummy-shaped bags. Both designs tend to have about the same chest and arm diameter, which is the key dimension for roominess, along with length, at least for me. Mummy bags are lighter for any given warmth rating.

Understand that it is the air trapped by the insulation, not the insulation itself, that provides warmth. Conversely, any dead or leaking air space inside the bag will be warmed by taking away your body heat. That's why snugger is always warmer, at least until it becomes restricting.

A good sleeping bag is an expensive but worthwhile investment. Choose carefully, and be suspicious of design gimmicks and claims of new wonder-fibers for insulation.

In my elder years I started using a large insulating pad and then opened up my sleeping bag - using it as more of a quilt than a bag - with my feet stuck into the mummy foot area. I found that much more comfortable.

I'd read that ultra-light backpackers have started using quilts instead of sleeping bags. Has anyone here used one?

I think I'd want some kind of a foot pocket just to allow me to kind of hold the quilt in place and thus to minimize the size of the quilt.

It is also a great way to lose/donate your stuff to some deserving soul.

As with any gear, sleeping bags need to be taken care of. With proper care, as Hikermor states, they can last a long time. I have found that synthetics can take more abuse than down. As you all know (I hope), storing the bags tightly compressed is a bad thing.

Tumbling dry sleeping bags can be a good thing on low or no heat. It helps loft the insulation back up whether it is down or synthetic. There are many new non-detergent washing powders/liquids, they help prevent a build up of residues which limits the insulating capabilities. Down insulation tends to clump after washing and needs the tumbling to separate the feathers.

At least this is my experience. I do have some old bags that still work well, but not as old as Hikermor's.

"I have found that synthetics can take more abuse than down."

They are definitely cheaper and faster to wash. This makes them the better choice for rentals, schools, young children etc. where they need to be cleaned frequently.
---

Head to head I saw no difference in insulation qualities between various brands and insulation types of synthetic bags when used constantly by a wide range of people.

Some outdoor ed instructors and guides liked North Face because they had a lifetime warranty and they would get a new bag every 3 or 4 years for free after the old one wore down. If Wiggy's does that too, that would be an advantage. As far as I know, the institution did not ask either North Face or Wiggy's to replace bags after they lost loft. That would be unseemly since it was wear, not poor design or craftsmanship.

Wow, great stuff so far, thanks to everyone who has already posted. Here's a few things that may help further the discussion.

First my typical cold weather sleeping arrangements (as per a previous cold weather camping discussion here) :

Clothing - a clean and dry change (at least the first night any way lol) consisting of synthetic undies (nylon or polyester usually), a heavy polyester or poly-cotton blend under pants and long sleeve under shirt (i know, cotton bad, but it's a blend, I only use them for sleeping and will have another 100% poly set for day-time activities), wool socks (loose fitting to promote good circulation to my feet), fleece pants, heavy fleece top, toboggan, and fleece tube hoodie (i gather it up around the neck area to help seal up the mummy bag).

Sleeping bag(s) - I use a fleece liner with my current coleman 0 to 20 degree bag (this bag is wayyyyy too bulky for the backpack) ... inside the fleece liner i use these, one or two at my feet and one or two around my core depending on the temperature.

Sleeping pad - nothing fancy, just a simple closed cell foam pad, plus a heatsheet silver side up

this set up helped us sleep warm and cozy on our last cold weather camp out as noted in the thread linked to above.

Now, for the backpacking, I will be using this hammock so I am also looking into the possibility of an under blanket/quilt for the colder weather. I'd really like an over-sized light-weight tarp to help enclose the hammock and protect it from wind and weather but the budget won't allow it for the January camp out. I may end up using a tent for the colder weather January camp out as lows are predicted in the 30s as of now. However, I'm still looking at the under-quilt as an option for future camp outs.

For the sleeping bag, I am definitely wanting synthetic (I am just not very well-versed in taking care of down), a mummy bag style (DS and I are both getting more and more used to it thanks to our current mummy bags).

Standard disclaimers, I have no affiliations with any companies or products I have linked to in this thread.

Hikermor, I always hear good things about down, but I am just more comfortable with synthetics, I've never owned anything down that I know of and am just not well-versed in it's proper use and care.

Montanero, I'll look into those wiggy's bags, any specific recommendations there?

Tjin, I mentioned my bag preferences in my previous post above, and you pretty much summed up my reservations about that beaume bag, I could not really find much about them with a google search either, other than links to sellers and such.

You're welcome BPJ, hope this proves useful for both of us, getting some great input from everyone so far.

AFLM, it appears to be minus 25 F, but who knows for sure. And I'll look into that softie 10 bag for sure.

QJS, that seems like it may be an option, but I have reservations about anything strapped to the outside of the pack as tjin and hikermor mentioned. That said, I have straps at the bottom and sides of my pack, presumably for attaching stuff to it in the manner you propose. In fact, my CCF pad currently gets attached horizontally to the bottom of the pack via the bottom straps. I've not really fully explored all the options for attaching stuff to this pack yet, but it sure seems pretty versatile. When you mentioned the bungee straps, i immediately thought of using them along with the molle type webbing I've been attaching carabiners to on the outside of the pack. However, I'd like to have as much IN the pack as possible, especially the sleeping bag, in case of rain (the pack has a built in rain cover and i always carry extra contractor bags as well). I'll be exploring the options for attaching gear this weekend for sure.

Another vote for a wiggy's bag from Phaedrus, I'll definitely be looking into those, again some specific recommendations would be awesome.

clearwater, I'm hoping using our fleece liners will reduce the need for frequent laundering, but if we do we'll be sure to follow manufacturer's instructions to help the bag last.

Thanks for all those great tips Jeff, I'll be sure to keep those handy.

Ken, I'm not sure that will work with the hammocks, besides I am one of those weird (maybe??) ones who enjoys snuggling into a nice warm sleeping bag at night.

This is the coolest thing!!!

A high loft down bag, mummy style, has been the gold standard for a warm backpackable sleeping bag for many years. There are synthetic fill bags that come very close, basically being only slightly bulkier for a given temp rating. A lot depends upon how critical the weight-warmth-bulk relationship will be in your activities.

Down bags are quite durable with only modest care. I often use a light bag liner or a set of long johns to keep the bag clean. I rarely,if ever, need to wash a bag.

My coldest trip ever was a mountaineering patrol of Denali in 1987. I used a synthetic bag, rated to -30 (courtesy of the NPS). -20 was routine, and one stormy night got down to -80 with wind chill. Bulk was not critical, because we were pulling sleds. Still retain all fingers and toes.

Lots of information here to help you with some of the 'magical' temperature ratings some manufacturers will claim.

http://www.mammut.ch/documents/Schlafsaecke/Downloads/Sleep%20Well/Mammut_Sleep_well_pt1_E.pdf

The ground pad really is critical! No matter what the bag, if you're sleeping directly on the ground or on snow or ice you're gonna be cold.

Mark F wrote: > QJS, that seems like it may be an option, but I have reservations about anything strapped to the outside of the pack

Obviously some common sense has to be used. I'm not advocating keeping the only item that will keep you alive on cold nights, in a paper bag, with a bank counter rubber band attaching it to your sac.
Use a strong waterproof stuff sac, with straps you can run the bunjees inside of, so they aren't relying on only friction. Though in reality bunjees grip like an alligator. Anything strong enough to pull the bag off my sac would pull me over first. Straps don't hold as tightly.
Tip for staying on the mat; have it inside the bag.

qjs

Mark F wrote: > QJS, that seems like it may be an option, but I have reservations about anything strapped to the outside of the pack

Obviously some common sense has to be used. I'm not advocating keeping the only item that will keep you alive on cold nights, in a paper bag, with a bank counter rubber band attaching it to your sac.
Use a strong waterproof stuff sac, with straps you can run the bunjees inside of, so they aren't relying on only friction. Though in reality bunjees grip like an alligator. Anything strong enough to pull the bag off my sac would pull me over first. Straps don't hold as tightly.
Tip for staying on the mat; have it inside the bag.

qjs

No amount of the highest quality insulation will keep you warm when you are laying on the cold ground.

While on active duty I used the issue water proof bag to wrap my sleeping bag in and attach it on the outside of my rucksack. While a bit heavier, they are fairly durable and can resist a good amount of abrasion. In the field I repaired holes with 100 mph tape (green duck tape), and then DX'd them when I got back, though DX is not an option in civilian life.

There are many good straps out there for attaching things to the outside of the backpack. My externally carried sleeping bag never came off, even when exiting an aircraft while in flight from 25,000 feet. If it can stand up to a military free fall it can handle hiking, though there was another harness for the rucksack that went around the bag as well. I did not use bungee cords, but a nylon cinch strap. Bungees are more convenient on the ground, easier to attach and detach and are plenty strong enough for hiking.

thanks hikermor, i'll keep that in mind about the down bags, but they may be out of range for my meager budget, aren't down bags kinda expensive? I'm sure it's worth it in the long run so maybe someday, just not today.

thanks for that link AFLM. When it comes to bag ratings I look more at the upper end of the rating anyway. Learned that lesson with our current mummy bags with the low end of the scale at 0F and ended up with a cold night's sleep at just 15F. That said tho, we've made some improvements to our cold weather sleep system so I'd almost bet we would sleep warm and cozy if we had to do that temp again.

thanks for the tip phaedrus, no sleeping directly on the ground for me if i can help it. Usually, I'm in a hammock or cot, for the campout coming up next weekend I don't think either will be an option, so I'll probably be in a tent with two layers of foam padding under me. Sure would like to get one of the thermarest self inflating pads, maybe someday ...

ah, I understand what you mean now QJS, and thanks to you and montanero for the tips on the waterproof stuff sack. I'll be thoroughly checking out all the options for attaching bigger bulkier equipment to the outside of my pack this weekend, will try to let you all know what I come up ith

Thanks again for all the tips and suggestions

Indeed they are but they are worth it many times over, if you get out a significant amount.

Anyone tried waterproof down? How good is it?

qjs

That's a good question. I perused the REI website and of 94 down bags, 92 are supposedly water-resistant. Then I filtered the sleeping bags for really cold by selecting -50-0 (F) for temperature and then looked at the results. We have 14 bags out of the filter, nine of which are down; of those nine, six are "water-resistant" down (looking at the filter count on in LH column).
*Note: when looking at the bags closely, the Nemo and all three Marmot bags specify down and do not mention "water-resistant", so there's a small discrepancy in the count, but water-resistant down is definitely in the majority (if that means anything).

I would probably go with water-resistant simply because the prospect of a critical item failing because it got wet is unacceptable. Even with great care, stuff happens. That said, the Marmot bags use a waterproof breathable shell, and Nemo uses a coated nylon shell.

... and with all that said, this thread is making me look much more critically in my choice of bags, mine are all synthetic, three season bags.

I used a down bag for years as a mountain climber. It was always great, very warm, and certainly did "scrunch down" into a compact volume. I was always super careful to keep that bag dry. Double wrap in plastic trash bags!!

good sleep is VERY important in the wilderness. and you won't get that if you are tossing and turning because you are cold. buy a warm bag!! can be down or synthetic .. but go warm!!

I think there may be two different things being discussed; first, bags made with waterproof/resistant shell fabric, and second, bags with the down filling itself treated to be water resistant.

See, e.g. http://www.mountaingear.com/themountainblog/2013/06/the-scoop-on-waterproof-down/

Water resistant down-

"We went the second week of sheep season, which as it turned out was a less that optimum choice, and we caught 6 straight days of rain, cloud, and fog. That made for some pretty lousy hunting, but it did however, make the perfect field test for finding the limits of waterproof down.

Day 1 and 2 consisted of intermittent drizzle and fog. The temp hovered between cold and dang cold, so the jacket got used a lot.



As advertised, the down held up to the sweat and 100% humidity amazingly well. I was impressed.

Day 3 it settled down into a steady cold rain that didn't quit. If you've ever hunted in the rain for days in a row, you know that EVERYTHING eventually gets wet. Water runs down your sleeves when you glass, gets down your neck, soaks the hem of your jacket when you bend over, and of course you get to sweat in raingear all day. Despite babying it to the best of my abilities, this kind of non-stop sogginess was the death of even the waterproof down, and by the end of the day sleeves and fringes of the jacket were soaked and useless. Although the body still had some loft, the jacket had lost a large percentage of it's insulation capabilities. If I had been relying on this as a critical layer, I would have been screwed at this point."

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/showthread.php?10158-quot-Water-Resistant-quot-Down-tested-to-failure

That is indeed useful information, but in all fairness, finding that a garment will eventually be wetted through while in use in constant rain is not representative of the way in which a down sleeping bag is likely to be used.

I did have an interesting night during which I slept out in a down bag (standard untreated down and nylon) inside a bivvy bag during a night of alternating rain, fog, and snow. I sensed that the loft of the bag was decreasing, although dawn arrived before it got to be really bad. My take on the situation was that I would have been warmer if the temperatures were cold enough that I only would have experienced snow.

In cold, rainy conditions I really like synthetic fleece for outerwear, especially underneath a shell garment. I can then anticipate a warm night in my dry bag, waiting for me back in camp.

Or wool. Heavier, but warm when wet and durable. I am a fan of wool sweaters, socks, and long underwear in the outdoors. I love my wool overcoat when in an urban setting. My overcoat stood up to subzero temperatures for several hours a few years ago, walking around a city. My feet suffered, but the rest of me was tolerably warm.