" modern medicine still isn't very far removed from medieval torture. The only big difference is anesthetic.

Sounds like the start of another thread to me. Hmm..... "

Well, you're on, dood...

I disagree on the basis of my experience and what I have observed in and out of various facilities over the years. Specifically, five years ago, I received a new heart valve. Pain and discomfort throughout the procedure was trivial, but more importantly I am still functioning today and remain reasonably active, especially for someone in their late 70's. Without the new valve, I would have died about two years ago. Just last week, I encountered another guy, hale and hearty, who had experienced the identical procedure, also with good results .

More importantly, the vast majority of medical folks are dedicated to alleviating human suffering and improving quality of life (There are exceptions, of course. Today's paper had a front page story about the conviction of a physician for second degree murder - wantonly careless drug prescriptions).

I have delivered accident victims to ERs many times, and I have been there myself on occasion as a patient, and I have seen only positive intentions, usually with the same results.

What in your experience leads you to equal medical care with medieval torture? It seems to me that the intent and mindset of your average medieval torturer differs greatly from that of today's doctors and nurses by quite a bit, to say nothing of the different methodologies involved.....

I won't comment on intent, as that is something far too personal to interpret and irrelevant to the argument anyways. Whatever motivation they may have, it is strictly their technique I observe and compare

Likewise, the outcome of these modern procedures is also irrelevant to the argument. There are certainly successes and failures, but no one survives forever, and the fact is people die in a hospital. Lots of people.

It is wonderful that some lives are extended, some ailments alleviated, some illnesses healed. Also irrelevant.

Were it not for the anesthetic, the experiences your body went through while you were being "treated" would've been unbearable. How long can a person tolerate having their chest split open, multiple cardiac electrocutions, needle stitchings, and so on? Or a splenectomy, or a caesarian, or an amputation, or intra-cardio chemotherapy, without being rendered unconscious, paralyzed, sedated, numbed, and having all memory of the event erased from their minds, assuming they survive?

That is my comparison, that is what I've seen. Euthanasia is perhaps comparatively more humane. Having lived enough of a life to accept the inevitable, I've already directed a DNR in my file. I don't need to go through that experience. I don't want to see anyone else go through what I've seen either. They may be unconscious, they may not remember it, but after what I've seen, what happens on that cold steel table in that sterile, unfamiliar room is not something I will ever look forward to, regardless of the outcome.

YMMV

This is just ridiculous. Of course modern medicine in America is nothing like medieval torture -- even the worst inquisitor didn't bill you for their services afterwards, make you file claims, reject your claims because you entered the wrong code or because the iron maiden they used on you was "out of network." Torture was strictly a single-payer system back in the Middle Ages. After you were burned at the stake, you were done, and I mean you were DONE!

I guess this thread really hits home after my valve replacement. The fact is they wheeled me into the OR, got me situated, and then went to work - anesthetic, stopped my heart, shunted blood through a heart/lung machine, popped the hood (so to speak) and got down to work, putting in my new valve fabricated from cow and pig tissues, sewing me back up and restarting my heart. I woke about eight hours later, feeling OK(this had something to do with the morphine I was given). Three days later I walked out of the hospital - that was a really good moment! Useful life has resumed.

I have executed an Advanced Care Directive, or whatever you call it, because there will be a time to pull the plug and walk away. Maybe I will be in a hospital, although a hospice would be preferable. Who knows when? Until that time comes, I will enjoy the benefits of modern medicine.

It is clear, BTW, that my good health requires my active participation, working with the medical establishment to keep the wheels turning.

I encountered the member of the team who stitched me up at the end of the operation (definitely a "closer") and chastised him for such a neat job. I was planning to run away and join the circus, making a fortune by showing my hideous scar for 50 cents a pop. His neat work ruined those plans, so I am back to digging for science....

While we're listing differences between modern medicine and medieval torture, in addition to anesthesia, let's list the following important differences:

-Pre-operation consultation
-Free-will
-Sterilization
-Post-operation care
-Nurses
-Waiting rooms for family
-Visiting hours
-Philosophy
-Hippocratic Oath
-Medical schools
-Etc.

Saying "the only big difference is anesthetics" is an oversimplification and fundamentally inaccurate. It's also a slight toward doctors who have dedicated their lives to helping heal people.

+1 very well stated

Great list, ireckon. Let me add to that the scientific method. While the medical practitioners I know are clear that medicine is still a large component of "art" vs. science, it's evolving rapidly and improving constantly. Just looking at how the TCCC guidelines have evolved over the last few years is astounding.

Equipped.org, where hyperboles are evaluated for their accuracy.

Now that's on the mark!

By the way, this notion was not contrived. I spent the better part of an evening at elk camp discussing this with a good friend, who worked as an ER doc at a local hospital. This was when my observations became a tangible comparison of what the similarities of the two gendres would be like.

Obviously the main difference- technology aside- is intent. Torture was meant to extract information or to cause suffering for its own sake. Modern surgery is meant to cure or correct an illness, injury or other condition. It's the difference between arson and lighting your fireplace.