#276411 - 08/29/15 12:46 AM
Rendering roof runoff potable
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Old Hand
Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
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I've been experimenting with harvesting rainwater by use of portable cisterns and exploitation of naturally occurring drainage patterns...well, actually, I have been moving a 45 gallon trash can under places where water runs off the roof. Fills up fast here in the tropic rainy season. In looking for information about the potability of rainwater, I stumbled upon a publication from academics that indicates that rainwater is actually poison falling from the skies, and needs to be filtered to 5 microns for removal of lead, and 1 micron for bacteria and parasites. So much for catching raindrops on my tongue. This level of filtration is well within reach of my msr miniworks and similar devices, but chlorine, iodine and uv filtration seem to be ruled out. If the rain is as severely polluted as this, why aren't we all dead?
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#276413 - 08/29/15 01:24 AM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Geezer in Chief
Geezer
Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
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This product http://www.rei.com/product/890899/sawyer-mini-water-filter-package-of-2 filters to 0.1 micron,and I don't believe it is unique. Giving your reference a very quick read, it looks like most of the contaminants comes from contact with roofs
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#276415 - 08/29/15 12:27 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 198
Loc: Scotland
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Chemicals such as Lead are dissolved in the water and CANNOT be filtered out.
Distillation is the only way to remove them and that will not remove many of the lighter molecules totally, but perhaps bring levels down to an acceptable level.
Pop along to your local water treatment plant or your water utility and ask them, try and get a tour of the plant and you will see what is necessary.
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#276421 - 08/29/15 08:30 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: Ian]
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Old Hand
Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
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The CDC thinks that lead can be filtered out of water. From the CDC drinking water article You may also wish to consider water treatment methods such as reverse osmosis, distillation, and carbon filters specially designed to remove lead. Typically these methods are used to treat water at only one faucet. Contact your local health department for recommended procedures. If you want to know more about these filters, please contact NSF InternationalExternal Web Site Icon, an organization for public health and safety through standards development, product certification, education, and risk management. Remember to have your well water tested regularly, at least once a year, to make sure the problem is controlled.
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#276422 - 08/29/15 09:28 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Old Hand
Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
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The NC study in the OP did not mention a control harvest to collect rainwater without the roofing product contamination. Raindrops form around high altitude particulates, some of which are contributions from coal-fired industrial plants, jet contrails, volcanic eruptions and angel feathers. Without intervening roof pollution, acid rain has produced a lot of crystal clear lakes in the Adirondacks: crystal clear because they are lifeless due to elevated pH. Reinforces the recommendation for water analysis. I believe government subsidies are available for rainwater cistern installation in the Florida Keys, to reduce demand on the pipe from the mainland-maybe this is a partial answer to the increasing scarcity of water in the West.
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#276429 - 08/30/15 07:36 AM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Member
Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 198
Loc: Scotland
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Nursemike, you are confusing two styles of filtering.
Physical filtering to remove particulates, which will not work, and exposing the water to absorbents in a bed which, with the correct absorbent, activated carbon, ion exchange resin, etc. will work.
The OPs link statement that filtering to 5 microns will remove dissolved lead is just plain wrong. Very easy to test. Try adding some food colouring dye to the water and see if a particulate filter removes the dissolved material.
Edited by Ian (08/30/15 07:47 AM)
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#276430 - 08/30/15 12:58 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Addict
Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 487
Loc: Somerset UK
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Presuming that we are talking about the collecting and drinking of rainwater in an emergency, rather than under normal conditions, then I would not worry overmuch about lead in the water.
Lead is a long term chronic poison and unless present at most improbable levels is of little short term concern.
Presuming that the roof is not made of lead, then the only source of lead in the water is industrial air pollution.
Whilst times are normal, I would drink city water, or deep well water, or bottled drinking water.
In a short term but serious emergency I would drink roof water after boiling or chlorinating to kill germs, and not worry about lead.
In a long term TEOTWAKI situation then industrial activity and the pollution that it produces would cease within a few months.
When collecting roof water, it is desirable to discard the first flow of water from the roof as this will be contaminated with bird droppings, dust, and leaves etc. Automatic devices to do this can be improvised. If water be very scarce, then this first flush of water can be put on the garden or used to flush a toilet.
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#276437 - 08/30/15 05:55 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
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Interesting comments so far. But I have got to think that there are MANY places in the world where rainwater is still fresh and clean. I really can't imagine that all of the world's rainwater is "poison".
It makes sense that rain is "suspect" if you are downwind (in the path of storms) from major cities with air pollution and industrial pollution.
Rainwater has also been implicated as a potential danger after nuclear explosions (atmospheric), where there is radioactive fallout. For example, the types of tests that were done in Nevada (USA) back in the 1950's. This is because the fallout radiation gets on dust particles. The dust particles are lifted into the atmosphere, and they will be collected when raindrops are condensing in clouds. So scattered "high spots" of radioactivity can occur in the rainfall downwind of an atmospheric nuclear test.
But I would have to think that rain that falls on the coast, from clouds that formed over the ocean, is probably very clean. However - what happens when it falls on your roof, and then flows through the gutter ... that's a good question! Hahahaha!
This topic is not just "random" for me. There's a good chance that I will be moving to a remote location in the next 12 months. And it is very likely that I will be using rainwater as one source of fresh water for drinking and bathing.
Pete
Edited by Pete (08/30/15 06:01 PM)
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#276441 - 08/30/15 06:33 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: Pete]
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Geezer in Chief
Geezer
Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
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I was out at dawn this morning cleaning my car windows (with the drought conditions here is SoCal i have not washed my vehicle in months). I believe that all the crud and dirt on the windows was deposited there by dew, no roof runoff, etc. I think I would boil before imbibing.
I an right on the coast,but rain reaches us from the west or northwest, and probably does pick up some pollution, but I imagine it is even worse further inland.
Edited by hikermor (08/30/15 09:40 PM)
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#276443 - 08/30/15 08:30 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1680
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
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one passive "first water exclusion" system that I though was pretty well designed has several (depending on the height of your house) vertical stand pipes of large diameter 4" or so PVC connected to your eaves system...the pipes must fill first before the cascade overflow at the top then goes on to the next pipe then to storage totes... a clean out plug at the bottom allows removal of large debris not screened by the eaves, and left slightly ajar(or drilled with a small hole) to allow water to slowly drain from the stand pipe after the storm
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#276444 - 08/30/15 09:28 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: LesSnyder]
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Old Hand
Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
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State rain water/ gray water harvesting regulation Makes sense that the government should regulate rainwater collection, as they regulate private wells and public water supplies. OTOH, makes me wish that the patriarchs had added a "right to keep and drink rain water" amendment. I have resolved not to think of rainwater as poison falling from the sky, but to re-conceptualize it as freely available water that requires no more purification than does the water from a mountain brook. I call it the "rain barrel half-full" approach. Lots of vendors out there, too, including a seller of bottled rainwater .
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#276445 - 08/31/15 02:06 AM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
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"I have resolved not to think of rainwater as poison falling from the sky, but to re-conceptualize it as freely available water that requires no more purification than does the water from a mountain brook."
Here's one simple thing that you could do. and to be honest - I will probably do exactly the same thing.
Collect a gallon of rainwater - by whatever method you choose. Clean a large saucepan - so that it is spic and span. Pour the rainwater in the saucepan, and heat slowly on your stove. Allow the water to boil away completely, and take a look at what is deposited on the surface of the saucepan. That might be a simple place to start - to see how clean the rain is.
Let us know if you find anything. I am curious.
Pete
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#276447 - 08/31/15 06:40 AM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3172
Loc: Big Sky Country
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That would show if dirt was in the water but it wouldn't show any chemical with a boiling point close to that of water.
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#276448 - 08/31/15 02:25 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
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Phaedrus - true. It's not a perfect test. The results are very useful, but they don't tell you everything.
I'm open to the idea of other simple tests, or even a water testing kit. I wonder if there is such a thing (simple and inexpensive).
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#276458 - 08/31/15 05:55 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Old Hand
Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
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There's also well water testing kits and home water purification systems if you intend to use it for drinking. Personally, I'd use it for filling the toilet tank during an outage, and landscape irrigation during normal times. Unless you live in an area with unreliable utilities and plenty of rainfall, I don't see breaking even on cost of a home water purification system.
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#276477 - 09/01/15 03:42 AM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: Mark_R]
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Old Hand
Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
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Personally, I'd use it for filling the toilet tank during an outage, and landscape irrigation during normal times. Unless you live in an area with unreliable utilities and plenty of rainfall, I don't see breaking even on cost of a home water purification system. Well said. The break even would depend on the alternative water system costs, and, except in USVI and Key West, selling a house that operates on rainwater harvesting might be tough. OTOH Fresh water supplies are dwindling, demand is increasing, and the states surrounding the Great Lakes have formed a pact to prevent exporting lake water to other states. Infrastructure like water and sewer lines are deteriorating, and electric generation is becoming problematic due to disenchantment with atomic energy systems. Perhaps the home of the future will need to be self sufficient in water, sewer, and electrical service.
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#276661 - 09/16/15 02:07 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
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Old Hand
Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
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My science is old and rusty: as I understand it, reverse osmosis means using pressure to force water molecules through really small holes/semi-permeable membrane against the normal flow of lower concentration to higher concentration. Does that men that pump water filters like the mini-works, or gravity filters like the Sawyer are committing reverse osmosis?
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#276678 - 09/17/15 12:28 AM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Enthusiast
Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 382
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My science is old and rusty: as I understand it, reverse osmosis means using pressure to force water molecules through really small holes/semi-permeable membrane against the normal flow of lower concentration to higher concentration. Does that men that pump water filters like the mini-works, or gravity filters like the Sawyer are committing reverse osmosis? they're not reverse osmosis , if they were that fact would be heavily advertised, A "manual reverse osmosis desalinator (MROD)," costs from one to two thousand dollars (katadyn) Also reverse osmosis requires that a high pressure be exerted on the high concentration side of the membrane, usually 2–17 bar (30–250 psi) for fresh and brackish water, and 40–82 bar (600–1200 psi) for seawater, which has around 27 bar (390 psi) natural osmotic pressure that must be overcome. They're microfilters
Filtration Type | Pore Size (µm / nm) | Molecular Weight (Daltons)
Microfiltration (MF) | 0.1-10 µm (1-1000 nm) |
Ultrafiltration (UF) | 0.01-0.1 µm (1-100 nm) | 10,000- 500,000
Nanofiltration (NF) | <0.001 µm (<1 nm) | 200-1,000
Reverse osmosis (RO) | <0.001 µm (<1 nm) | <100 Organism |Examples |General Size |Filter Type |Particle Size Rating Protozoa |Giardia, Cryptosporidium |5 microns or larger |Water filter |1.0–4.0 microns Bacteria |Cholera, E. coli, Salmonella |0.2–0.5 microns |Microfilter |0.2–1.0 microns Viruses |Hepatitis A, rotavirus, Norwalk virus |0.004 microns |Water purifier |to 0.004 microns
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#279026 - 01/25/16 07:23 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: nursemike]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
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Injecting life into an old thread.
I moved to Brazil. A permanent change for me. We are now using rain water for everything. Tropical rain is very heavy in the afternoons. it is collected in large plastic tanks that sit on the roofs of houses. There is no filtration or treatment.
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#279027 - 01/25/16 08:00 PM
Re: Rendering roof runoff potable
[Re: Pete]
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Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3851
Loc: USA
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I moved to Brazil. A permanent change for me. Wow! What prompted this move? What do you think so far?
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