#273807 - 01/20/15 02:33 PM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: Phaedrus]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1579
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Every time I'm at my local multiplex I have a Surefire E1B and a handgun, usually my HK P30S or HK VP9, and both wear tritium night sights. With either of those guns I'm probably going have a very high percentage chance of a head shot within 50 feet and I regularly practice out to 25 yards with them. I've done a course with moving 3D targets (bad guys) and moving "no shoot" non-targets, where you had to be constantly on the move (sometimes involuntarily -- i.e., panicking crowd shoving you). Crazy guys do not move in a smooth, predictable way, and that was simulated (i.e., not shooting ducks scrolling smoothly from left to right at a fair). Even at half the distance of what you're talking about, it was really, really hard. I'd recommend a course like this.
Edited by Bingley (01/20/15 02:34 PM)
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#273810 - 01/20/15 08:12 PM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: Phaedrus]
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Addict
Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 577
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A ways back a USAF bike MP engaged an active shooter armed with an AK-47; the shooter had already killed a few people when the officer reached him. He engaged at a distance of 60 yards, firing four rounds from his Beretta M9, killing the perp. And that was after basically sprinting (on his bike) over a quarter mile to the scene. Very impressive shot under stress.
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#273811 - 01/20/15 09:42 PM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: barbakane]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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Well, it turns out that an external shooter would have actually caused more problems in this particular situation. This guy offed himself. I'm struggling to think of a way you could have fired your CCW and and improved upon that outcome. Nobody would have gotten to this guy before he got his victims. So, let's not even mention that.
Again, I'm pro-CCW, and I would carry if I could. So, don't misread what I'm saying.
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#273812 - 01/20/15 10:14 PM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: ireckon]
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Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3837
Loc: USA
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Well, it turns out that an external shooter would have actually caused more problems in this particular situation. This isn't quite the same thing as saying someone who was carrying concealed would have caused more problems. The statistics show that having an armed civilian present would have been unlikely to make things worse. This guy offed himself. I'm struggling to think of a way you could have fired your CCW and and improved upon that outcome. He shot two people. I wasn't there and I don't know anything about how this went down other than in the link to the news story, but it's conceivable that someone who was carrying concealed might have been able to prevent one or both of the victims from being shot. It's also possible that the situation was such that it wasn't preventable by someone carrying concealed. We may never know. Nobody would have gotten to this guy before he got his victims. How do you know that? I'm not saying you're wrong, because I sure as heck don't know, but you'd have to be in possession of more information about the incident than I am to be sure.
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#273813 - 01/20/15 11:48 PM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: ireckon]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
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Nobody would have gotten to this guy before he got his victims. Except maybe one of the victims, had they given themselves a chance by being armed and aware. No guarantees, but at least a chance.
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#273817 - 01/21/15 01:25 AM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: barbakane]
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Old Hand
Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
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IIRC, there were a number of programs put into effect in the wake of Aurora and Sandy Hook. They came down to two philosophies First: 1) Run 2) If not possible, then Hide 3) If discovered, then fight. I recall airline passengers, in the wake of 9/11, being instructed to throw luggage at any high jackers. Second: ALICE, intended for schools and compartmented buildings like office buildings. Alert Lockdown - IIRC, this is where Sandy Hook went very wrong. The substitute teacher did not have the classroom key to lock the door. Inform (realtime information on shooters location) Counter - Fight. Ever get beaned with a flying laptop? Evacuate - self explanatory For reference and giggles http://www.wrbl.com/story/27832442/valle...school-shooters
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane
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#273820 - 01/21/15 06:59 AM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: chaosmagnet]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3160
Loc: Big Sky Country
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a USAF bike MP engaged an active shooter armed with an AK-47; the shooter had already killed a few people when the officer reached him. He engaged at a distance of 60 yards, firing four rounds from his Beretta M9, killing the perp. Very recently a Canadian RCMP officer killed an active shooter with one shot from his handgun at a distance of 105 yards, while holding the reins of some horses in the other hand! In November 2014 an Austin PD officer used his pistol to stop an active shooter on the street. One shot into the X-ring. At over 100 yards. One handed while holding HIS HORSE with the other hand. Ah, thanks! I mixed up the specifics. It was still a helluva shot no matter which country it was made in! ![grin grin](/images/graemlins/default/grin.gif)
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman
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#273821 - 01/21/15 07:04 AM
Re: Active shooter scenario
[Re: gonewiththewind]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3160
Loc: Big Sky Country
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I am not a fan of taking wisdom from Hollywood, but this one is right on. You lose 100% of the fights you give up on. In an active shooter situation, or an airline hijacking these days, if you can't get out, you are likely to die anyway. Take the chance on removing the threat.
As for the shooting a pistol at range, it just takes practice. I can consistently hit a man sized target at 100 meters from the draw, on double action, with a pistol. Yes, I have had considerable training. But it takes practice. If you are carrying a weapon, and you don't practice with it, you might as well not carry it. Whether it is a stick, a knife or a gun. Or even your hands and feet. If you don't train, you will not react well if the situation arises.
Well said. I think that if you're "outgunned" the best chance is probably to attempt to surprise the perp with a ferocious counter-ambush. Get inside his OODA loop and throw him off. It's good to practice at many different distances. As a kid my dad had an FFL and dealt guns through our sports club. I was involved in hunting of all types (small game, birds on the wing, big game) and shooting sports. I especially liked silhouette shooting with rifles and bowling pin shooting with handguns. I was fortunate that we had a 100 acres we lived on in the country and a progressive reloader! ![cool cool](/images/graemlins/default/cool.gif) I must have went a good 15-20 years shooting an average of 500 rounds per week. I wouldn't call myself an expert or anything but I'm pretty competent with a wide range of firearms. Still, I hope to get more training, too.
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman
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