This past weekend, my son's Boy Scout troop went to the Kentucky Coal Association's Camporee in Knott County, Ky. The weather forecast called for a chilly Friday night, with a low of about 20 to 25 degrees F. Preparations for the cold included mummy bags rated 0 to 20 degrees F, with a fleece liner to go inside, and two of these stuffed in our bags ahead of time to warm up the sleeping bag. We slept on cots, with pads on top of the cot, added a blanket on top of the pad for extra insulation underneath, then the sleeping bag on top. Clothing consisted of a base layer of wicking polyester garments, layers of fleece, wool socks, gloves, hats etc. I brought my insulated coverall as well. Also took along some extra (warm) clothing including spare wool socks, gloves, hats and fleece layers.

The weather report I looked at was slightly off, and it ended up being about 10 degrees colder than anticipated Friday night. Saturday morning was a frosty (for us anyway) 15 degrees F, a cold night for us, and our coldest night of camping yet. Despite the cold weather preparations, my son and I ended up with EXTREMELY cold feet at about 3 in the morning. We did our best to warm up but we ended up looking for the warming station at around 5:30 AM, we ended up not being able to find it so instead we threw more logs on the fire and waited for the morning sun to warm us up. my son and i both slept in a change of dry clothing, including underwear, long john top and bottom (mine was a wool mix, my son's was polyester), fleece top and pants, wool socks, synthetic hats and gloves.

In hindsight, a few things we might have done to improve our cold feet situation:

- A second pair/layer of wool socks with a set of these in between (one of the other ASMs did this as well).

- A garbage bag pulled up around the outside of the foot area of the sleeping bag (a trick one of the older ASMs from another troop taught us last year on a cold campout, but i honestly didn't think we'd need it given the sleeping bags and multiple layers we were using).

- In line with the garbage bag outside the sleeping bag, I am wondering if one INSIDE the bag would also work, either in addition to or instead of the one on the outside of the sleeping bag

- Better cot pads with better insulation value, and add extra winter coats over the top of the cot pad for better insulation underneath. Maybe also add a reflective emergency blanket to that mix.

- Hot water in our water bottles to take into the sleeping bag with us.

- Instead of the fleece liner bag, stuffing another sleeping bag inside the main one. Several who came to the campout did this, one boy from another troop stuffed one 0 degree bag inside another 0 degree bag.

Is there anything else we might have done better? Or differently? We generally don't camp in the cold so any of your best suggestions would be most appreciated. As always, thanks in advance for your help, and hope this thread will help others who have a cold night of camping approaching.

I wouldn't put a garbage bag inside a sleeping bag; I'd be worried about sweat making you damp and wicking heat away. Outside the sleeping bag I have never tried but sounds like it might help. I have single-use toewarmers that fit on my socks inside my boots and I would have used those between socks -- they're a better shape for feet than handwarmers.

Did you have a tent? A tent, even uninsulated, can create a layer of still air that can make a big difference in staying warm.

oh yeah, forgot to mention the tent, it was a troop tent, but more of a warm weather tent.

OK, I know this is going to sound silly. . .
when you were in the sleeping bags, did you have a wool or other warm cap on in addition to the mummy bag top?

The head radiates a lot of heat. If you are losing too much heat through your head, the body lets other parts cool down (e.g. the feet) in order to keep the brain working.

So, maybe warmer headgear would help, or, as Grandma said:
"put a lid on the teakettle."

I also would not recommend placing a plastic bag inside the sleeping bag. You can place extra clothing or blankets in the bottom of your sleeping bag to take up that excess room, especially for the kids who are smaller. That extra room requires body heat to warm it up. You can fold the excess under and place a plastic bag over that to remove that excess space.

You can get the military surplus sleeping systems for around $100, which includes two bags and a bivy bag that all snap together. It would easily have worked for those temperatures.

My scout troop was camping this last weekend also. We had low to mid 20s at night. I make sure that they all have a good insulating pad, not necessarily comfortable and soft, but good insulation. I also have a supply of military surplus wool blankets for those bags that may not be so warm.

Long underwear and warm socks do help inside the bag. For really cold feet, you can get a set of down booties to sleep in.

bws48, yes I had a hat on, but not sure if DS had one on. i should probs check on getting us some warmer headgear tho.

Montanero, i am starting to see a theme, so no garbage or other plastic bags inside the sleeping bag. someone else had suggested to me I should have taken one of the extra fleece tops we had and put my feet inside that inside the sleeping bag, i suppose that is right in line with stuffing extra clothing and blankets into the sleeping bag. DS is tall, like I am so not a lot of extra space at the bottom of his sleeping bag either. I'll have to check into those down booties, in addition to just being cold-blooded, my circulation isn't so great after being diabetic for nearly 40 years.

One more thing I realize we could have done the first time we woke up with cold feet at 3am, was put some water on to get hot and made something hot to eat, that might have helped keep us warmer through the rest of the night as well.

I use the wool socks inside of the wool booties. They are the layers that come with the USGI Arctic canvas boots. BTW: Those canvas Arctic Boots are the most comfortable footwear that I have ever worn. It's a shame that South Louisiana is way to warm to wear them during the winter months.

Agree with all the comments. Sleeping in the cold can be an enjoyable experience if you are prepared.

Typically for us, it starts with a good tent and fly. Unless the weather is really foul, the fly is kept loose especially at the top of the tent as there are air vents that help disperse condensation out.

For cold sleeping, I use; Therm-a-Rest RidgeRest SOlite sleeping pad, -10 rated synthetic sleeping bag, bag liner, synthetic medium weight long johns, undershirt, polar fleece pullover. 2 layers socks and a hat if needed.

Misc tips:

- Instead of doubling sleeping bags (unless they are warm rated types) consider using a liner. These are generally cheaper, much less bulky to carry and can add 5-10F of added warmth. The other positive is they much easier to clean then a sleeping bag as most can be washed in a household washing machine and either dried on low heat or hung to dry.

- Some people find a neck warmer helps keep a draft of the neck. A balaclava goes further by keeping the neck, face and head covered.

- Don't sleep with the sleeping bag over your head. All the moisture you exhale is going directly into the bag. If you want to keep your head and face warm, see above point.

- Don't sleep with just an air mattress under you as the cold is conducted right from the ground and up through the air mattress. Use a good quality closed cell sleeping pad such as the Ridgerest mentioned on top the air mattress.

- Before bed, fill your water bottle with hot water (or tea hot chocolate etc) for overnight warm drinks) and keep in the sleeping bag. Make sure the bottle is covered so that it does not burn you. A spare sock or extra shirt works great for this purpose. Chemical heat packs are another option instead of the water bottle.

- Eat bedtime snacks that have some fat and calorie content to keep your body warmer. You cannot beat Peanut butter sandwiches for this. I personally prefer some pepperoni sticks as they usually have a good fat content. Some old time explorers and modern day Expeditioneers carry and cook up bacon for their bedtime snacks in extreme cold conditions. Others carry and eat various nuts and trail mixes.

- If your camping area is subject to wind, try and setup the tent out of wind. If not possible, position the tent so that a window or the door is into the wind and open very slightly. Be doing this, the tent is pressurized so to speak and will stop that annoying flapping of the tent when the wind blows for hours.

- If you hang a plastic, woven or sil type tarp above your tent, weight it down with a piece of wood or something of similar weight. This helps to keep the tarp from flapping as much in the wind and less noise equals better sleeping.

We used to weave windbrakes by weaving branches into a vertical wall upwind of our tent.

A good chunk of this has been covered above I think, but this is how I approach cold weather camping.

A big thing I've found in winter is to have a tent with solid walls (i.e., not mesh). I have slept in tents with partial mesh walls and I found I really felt even a small breeze as it goes through the tent.

Between me & the ground (bottom up) I typically use:

• Reflective layer (like an All Weather emergency blanket, shiny side up) to bounce some of my lost heat back to me
• Closed cell foam (I've recently combined this and the previous component into a single piece of gear with a Therm-A-Rest Ridgerest Solite that has a reflective side)
• Self-inflating pad (I us a 3.8 cm thick pad, MEC brand)

For a sleeping bag I use a -7 C (20 F) down bag and will also use a synthetic overbag that is rated for +15 C (60 F) on its own which adds 5 to 10 C (9 to 18 F) to the system. In addition to adding warmth, the condensation forms on the outer synthetic bag keeping the inner down bag dry. I also usually cinch things up so only my nose/mouth area is visible.

For clothing, I'll usually just do a dry pair of socks & a base layer. I won't necessarily wear a toque or anything on my head due to how I cover up with the sleeping bag.

Filling a Naglene with hot water & bringing that to bed with you is good too ... it also makes sure you have liquid water when you wake up! As an aside, if you have other bottles, store them upside down so that if they start to freeze, the unfrozen water will still be accessible.

Also, have a good high calorie snack before bed. I usually bring chocolate bars for this (Snickers, preferably ).

When I have found myself out with a bag that wasn't warm enough for the weather, layering up with whatever could provide warmth (like fleece mid-layers) helps. I used my camp blanket in my bag with me once too (not a winter camp, but I unwisely had my summer bag with me) but I found it was hard to keep in place. I also once used a puffy down jacket around my sleeping bag, partially zipping it, which provided some extra warmth.

Site selection is quite important. Stay out of creek bottoms and places where cold (heavy) air will settle. That is easily worth about 5-10F right there.

Do not sleep on cots. Get down on the ground and insulate, as others have noted, with two or so pads (not air mattresses!).

I like to wear a warm base layer inside the bag,with something that covers my head and the large blood vessels in the neck.

Have a bit to eat before retiring. Chocolate is great for this purpose.

I wonder if your sleeping bags were honestly rated. Believe it or not, some manufacturers will exaggerate. 20F isn't really all that cold.

I second hikermor's suggestion to choose your site well.

I always use at least two sleeping pads, one closed cell-Thermarest and a cheapo blue pad, along with a mylar blanket underneath and a wool blanket to go over my cold weather sleeping bag, I'm usually toasty warm.

We eat a hot, high fat snack right before bed too, to get the internal furnace going. bacpacboy particularly recommends a hot chocolate and hot dog and/or cookies/smores. This mama likes a shot of kaluha in hers. A wool watch cap and socks, along with good old johns, always serve me well, even with an arthriticy hip.

Not sure about your troop tents, but ours were too big for a long time, for winter camping. Bigger, higher domed tents allow the youth lots of room, and tend to be more budget friendly, but makes for a lot of dead air space, which I find makes it cooler than in a smaller tent. Our group has upgraded to smaller Eureka tents now, and get fewer complaints about sleeping cold. (Let's face it, someone's always going to complain.)

A vapor proof lining -- also called vapor barrier -- inside your sleeping bag has its use, but for most of us it's purely theorethcial. The vapor barrier prevents condensations to accumulate inside the insulation of the sleeping bag. You loose a cup or so of vapor through sweathing each night, and if all of that accumulates for days and weeks then the insulation value gradually drops. Essentially, you get lumps of ice inside all that nice fluffy insulation material. Not good.

Most of us aren't at polar expedititions that lasts weeks, and would rather not deal with the downsides of a vapor barrier: It gets rather clammy and damp.

If your sleeping bag isn't up to it, I've had great success making lining out of army surplus wool blankets. Fould doble and stitch a cocoon with an inch or two wide stitches, it takes 2 minutes, cut away the surplus. Heavy, bulky, but works wonders to augment a sleeping bag.

I haven't tested any of the fleece liners, but I'm sure they're good.

And wool underwear. I'm a big wool fanatic. Modern merino wool is fantastic.

Oh, and like several other has mentioned, good insulation to the ground is important. Your sleeping bag will squeese flat under you, and not provide much of insulation. In winter, I too use two cell foam mats or one cell foam + one of those wonderful "exped downmats". (The exped downmat in itself provides plenty of insulation and wonderful comfort, but I want backup in case of a leak.)

The dynamics of your discomfort-warm enough initially, foot discomfort later-suggest that nutrition/and hydration issues may predominate. Your feet are at the end of the circulatory line, and tend to be the first place that shortage of fuel and fluid show up. Winter camping requires high quality, purpose-designed equipment, or a very old-fashioned approach. A tiny snow-cave, lean-to or pup tent may be more comfortable than a large and airy 3-season tent, wool blankets and woolen clothing may prove superior to multiple layers of summer-weight synthetics. Whelen and Baker tents are designed for cold weather use in combination with a fire, and the kifaru folks have amazingly light tents and tent stoves. A tepee, yurt, or cave will accommodate a lot of campers and a fire for cold weather applications. Folks have been living rough in the cold for thousands of years, and the technology is there to make it a comfortable experience: but it is the not the technology of synthetic, ultra-light, inexpensive big box retail outlets that does so.

don't sleep in your day clothes they well be too damp even if you can't feel it.a total change into dry sleeping gear is hard because your putting in cold clothes.it's tempting to get into the bag in body warmed up stuff but the damp will chill you and the bag will get damp as your body uses calories to dry the clothes you wore all day.
i would suggest striping down and putting on a polyfluff sweat suit and polyfluff soxs and hat.
a bit of a snack before bed helps but stay away from drinks or you will find trying to pee in a bottle or zip lock in a sleeping bag is a looser.

wildman, I'll have to check those out.

teslinhiker, looks like some good tips there, but I do have to be careful about eating too much before bed as I am diabetic, and we have a boy in the troop with a horribly bad peanut allergy so can't go that route either. Also, we did use a fleece sleeping bag liner, it helped some but apparently not enough.

denis, thanks for the input, adding to my list of possible things we can do better for our next outing

hikermor, yikes no cots? I'm wondering why as it seems to me like I sleep warmer on the cot than on the ground? But then, our sleep pads are not the best, I'll have to look into all the sleep pads that have been recommended here.

hikermor and BPJ, as far as site selection, we didn't have much choice in that matter, it was a council run event, we were on top of a mountain, a reclaimed strip mine site, no trees or shelter to speak of, and we had a designated camp site. The size of the tent may have also been an issue, as they were tall enough for me to stand in and i am over 6 ft.

mostlyharmless, I will have to see if i can get my hands on some wool blankets for that purpose, and as everyone else has mentioned better insulated padding for underneath

nursemike, I suppose that is a possibility, although we stopped to eat before we went to the camp site, a pizza buffet, figure there was plenty of fat in that meal, and as i recall we ate hot cups of noodles before going to bed, not the high fat snack everyone has been mentioning, but it was good and hot. Another factor, at least for me, is the complications of being diabetic for nearly 40 years compromising (at least to some extent) the circulation in my feet. The hydration could have been an issue, especially for my son as he tends to not want to drink enough for some reason (probably because I am always onto him about it and he is 13 and knows everything so dad is automatically wrong). My feet were certainly chilly, but I think I would have been fine til morning if my son hadn't come to my tent complaining of his feet being "numb" (in hindsight, they were most likely just very cold and he noticed it when he was putting his shoes on for a trip to the bathroom). The tent was also far less than ideal, but we had done ok in them at previous camp outs with similar temps (the drop to 15 degrees was VERY unexpected). It was also all we had to work with as far as the troop equipment goes, although I might have brought a smaller tent from home (7 by 7 ft footprint).

canoedogs, that is good advice. I can't say for sure that my son did, but i know i changed out of ALL my clothes and into dry underwear, long johns, and a fleece top and flannel bottoms. the down side of this was, I got very cold right before getting into the sleeping bag, which is not supposed to be a good idea is it? How does one make the change into dry clothing without getting cold outside the bag or compromising the bag with damp clothing (i.e. climbing into the bag to change clothes)?

A big thanks to everyone, I hope all this info will make for a better (and warmer) cold weather camping experience for my son and I next time around.

12 Person Cold Climate Tent With Bunk Beds
A complete systtem that consist of a genuine military surplus Olive tent with fiber fleece lining, windows and heater pipe vent exit port. This tent comes with 12 bunk beds, all poles, stakes and accessories: at major surplus
Admittedly, a little pricy at $2495 and heavy at 480 pounds, but it's fleece lined!

Reclaimed strip mines may not make the best campgrounds. I much prefer spending time in areas (e.g., Gila Wilderness) where one is free to camp wherever.

I agree that a smaller volume tent would be more satisfactory - lighter,more wind resistant, and warmer due to less volume.

Two CCF pads will give plenty of insulation.

I have several Wiggy's bags, and so far I've never slept cold in one of them. I have two that are designed to "nest" together into one bag, and in that configuration it's rated for -40 F. Ratings are sometimes pulled out of the air and there's no objective way to test them but Wiggy's seem to be rated pretty fairly. If it's really cold I might also wear my Wiggy's Sun Walker booties in the bag, too.

Lots of good advice. I'll add my $0.02 from snow camping.

A good pad is essential--closed cell foam (ensolite) is the best for insulation. If you like a more comfortable air pad, make sure it is appropriately insulated or put a closed cell on top of it.

Dry wool, fleece or acrylic socks but make sure they are loose fitting otherwise they will restrict circulation and make your feet colder.

Always sleep with a beanie. Always.

If your jacket is heavy and you put it on top of your sleeping bag, it may actually compress the insulation and make you colder. Think light, fluffy thoughts!

I always toss a hot water bottle down in there. Make sure the lid is on tight and it's covered, as mentioned.

Do eat a hearty snack before bed. Don't eat/drink things with caffeine--it makes you need to pee, keeps you awake and is a vasoconstrictor (less blood to extremities=colder).

If you're really chilly, 20-40 push ups in your bag will often cure it! (and can be done quietly enough to not wake your tent mates)

Gross points: If it's really cold out, use a pee bottle, preferably one with a wide mouth, tight sealing lid and unmistakably differentiated from the tequila bottle that was passed around the fire earlier. Once used, keep it in your sleeping bag. No point putting that warm liquid out in the cold! Gatorade bottles get my nod for this.

Best things about camping in the snow are no crowds, no bugs and no dirt!

Nursemike, that would be awesome, but it IS way out of both the troop's budget and my personal budget.

I do like all the great tips on the insulation, esp from underneath with the various pads, I think that is one vital piece of our puzzle we lack, we have some of the blue foam pads from wal-mart, but not sure that is exactly what everyone has been talking about with the closed cell foam pads. Any links to some good closed cell foam pads? Or are the ones I have from Wal-Mart sufficient?

hikermor, the site sure wasn't ideal for a night of cold camping, but it was perfect for saturday's activities, which consisted of the boys shooting .22s, .50 cal black powder rifles, and 20 gauge shotguns (skeet shooting). There were stations where the boys could work on various merit badge requirements (our troop leaders were in charge of emergency preparedness). There was also a "live action" bow and arrow range, where the boys had to shoot at a large skeet-style target, and there was also a tomahawk-throwing station. The venture crews got to shoot the higher caliber modern rifles. Plenty of room to spread out, and set up the shooting sports so no one was hurt by any stray bullets, arrows, tomahawks, etc. All in all it was a very good day for everyone.

Phaedrus, I'll give the wiggys products a look.

Desolation, more good advice, and as far as the heavy jacket goes, I'm thinking more of putting that underneath than on top (although I did admittedly have to put one on top of me when DS decided we needed to try the 2 people in one mummy-type bag, and the bag wouldn't zip up all the way, leaving me fairly exposed to the cold). Thankfully, I had no tent mates to worry about waking up.

Closed cell foam is pretty much closed cell foam. There are varieties,(Z-rest comes to mind) out there that have some advantages, but the basic blue ones will do the job. With a little duct tape, they can also be fashioned into decent cervical collars and splints.

Closed cell foam does come is lots of quality levels. The cheap ones generally gets flat by use fairly quickly. The expedition grade EVA pads lasts a lot longer.

Sorry for resurrecting this thread, but just wanted to let everyone know how this year's Kentucky Coal Association Camporee in Knott County, Ky went this past weekend.

I guess everyone was tired of the cold, especially after last year, so they had the camp out a month earlier than in previous years. Just our luck, though, we had the first cold snap of the year. Although it wasn't as bad as last year, we had lows friday night and saturday night in the 30's. There was light frost on everything saturday morning, and a heavier frost on everything sunday morning, so I suspect saturday night may have dropped below 30 (the forecast i looked at predicted low friday of 38 and low saturday of 30). We used a lot of the recommendations in this thread to make changes so we would stay warm this year.

We added more insulation under us, including a closed cell foam pad and a space blanket. Since last year I have worked on increasing my water intake to be better hydrated. I added fleece pants to sleep in. I used the same sleeping bag system, but added a garbage bag over the feet. I also made better use of the mummy feature and cinched it closed better than last year. I wore a neck gaiter and hat to cut down the heat loss at my neck and head area. I also added an extra warmer in the feet area. My son had a fleece liner, tucked in his 40 degree mummy bag, tucked inside his cold weather mummy bag. We had a nice hot snack of high calorie, high fat ramen noodles (380 calories, 140 from fat).

It's hard to compare to last year's campout, as we did not have the (relative) extreme cold like we did last year, but it sure seemed like we slept warmer. In fact I know I slept warmer than at a similar campout we did around december of last year at similar temps to what we experienced this past weekend. My feet stayed nice and warm both nights and my son slept warm as well with no cold feet.

The only problem I noticed this year, was condensation INSIDE the garbage bag which ended up on the outside of the sleeping bag at the foot area. I didn't notice any dampness inside the sleeping bag, and it was not a problem for this short term camp, however it is something I need to give further consideration in the future.

Just wanted to thank everyone for all the great tips which we incorporated into this year's camp out.

Yeah, I had my scouts out this weekend as well. Unusually cold for this time of year, but the boys did well with closed cell foam pads and military surplus sleeping bags. No complaints of being cold, except when they got out of their bags!

The CCF pad is cheap and lightweight, however, when I've got my 2" self inflating Thermarest pad and slept in my hammock on one and then on another (3 nights campout in Sierra at around 50F), - I new for sure that CCF is nothing even close at keeping your back warm. Even though many hammockers believe that deep ridges of the CCF pad's surface do less down compacting compared to flat inflatables.

For the condensation - most likely it's a good sign that your SB is doing good job wicking your body perspiration out. I've ditched a overly nice bevy once due to the bad breathability, after just a single six pack I woke up in a fresh puddle thinking it was raining all night

One of those thin inflating pads is on my short list of stuff I'd like to have but the family budget is paper thin right now so we're simply making do with what we have, the closed cell pads seem to be doing the job just fine for now.

That's true, I've been postponing that upgrade for a while too. But trust me, it worth it. No regrets for the past 6 years. The only caveat - if you're rolling a lot in your sleep - opt for the wider King model, my wife cannot sleep on the regular one because of that.

I've camped in cold and snow now and then, a closed-cell foam pad is plenty fine enough in my experience (even a cheap one). But it's a good idea to prepare the ground beforehand - a pile of leaves provides good insulation. Personally, I prefer spruce boughs whenever available. Really comfortable and will keep you warm if you know how to make a halfway decent bough bed.

One time I had to spend the night in a swamp, which was pretty bad more so as it was raining all night long. I had no foam pad whatsoever. A spruce bough bed and a large garbage bag on top did the trick, plus a simple poncho lean-to to keep away the rain. I woke up the next morning, got out of my sleeping bag and realized I was literally sleeping on several inches of water. Luckily, the bough bed was just thick enough to keep me dry. I actually slept like a baby that night, I had a pretty good sleeping bag and I suppose the waterbed au naturel was an added bonus.

Sure thing, if you can afford cutting some plants and disturbing the forest's floor. In Siberian taiga I've been making fantastic lean-tos and beds of fresh fir and cedar branches, but for a weekend camping in CA Sierra I'm feeling guilty just for gathering a fallen wood.