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#269492 - 04/27/14 01:03 AM Re: Bitcoin: What's the Appeal? [Re: Brangdon]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Brangdon
Another part is that it's a trustless system (more or less), in a good way. With dollars, you have to trust the government not to print too many of them.

What about that Mt. Gox disaster? Didn't people trust the owner with their Bitcoins, and then those subsequently went "poof"? And now Flexcoin is reportedly going down the drain. It seems you have to put a LOT of trust into Bitcoins, and apparently there have been some big losses due to this misplaced trust.

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#269501 - 04/27/14 12:12 PM Re: Bitcoin: What's the Appeal? [Re: ireckon]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
I don't see Bitcoin (or something similar) as the future. I see an Internet-based barter system as the future. It's de-centralized and still works without electricity, although just locally.

We currently have some Internet-based barter systems. However, bartering is not cool enough (yet) for it to catch a buzz like Bitcoin has. Bitcoin needs a couple more Mt. Gox's for a massive number of people (and the best programmers) to shift to something that is fundamentally different.

Come to think about it, Bitcoin could be traded in the barter system like any other good. Individuals exchange electricity, computing power, or any other good/service for Bitcoins. There is no cash exchanged. Note that the U.S. government considers Bitcoin to be property, which equals a "good" in the barter system.

Something like Bitcoin may have to remain in the barter system. As a practical matter, some type of currency may be necessary to pay for things like health care. Or maybe I'm brainwashed to think that way...
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#269502 - 04/27/14 02:53 PM Re: Bitcoin: What's the Appeal? [Re: chaosmagnet]
Brangdon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 1204
Loc: Nottingham, UK
Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Originally Posted By: Brangdon
As a hedge against financial collapse, or hyper-inflation, gold is surely more reliable. (Or bullets, or first aid supplies, or toilet paper, or whatever.)


People argue whether gold has intrinsic value -- to me it clearly does for certain industrial uses, which may or may not be around in the case of financial collapse, hyper-inflation or whatever. Ammunition (loaded or components), first aid supplies, toilet paper, and so on have intrinsic value. The intrinsic value of paper currency is extremely low, and bitcoin has none.

I own stocks so I must be an optimist laugh.
Such a small proportion of gold's value comes from its industrial uses that I don't see it as significant. Arguably, intrinsic value is a bad thing in a currency. It means it gets consumed, or otherwise taken out of circulation for reasons not related to the economy. So intrinsic value is a bit of a red herring, really. Other than that, we seem to be in agreement: for preparedness, stockpile toilet paper first, gold a poor second and bitcoin an even poorer third.

Some people try to make a similar big deal about Bitcoin not being fiat: it's not legal tender; there are no laws forcing a vendor to accept it. For others, the freedom is part of the attraction. The currency will thrive or fail based on its merits, not on force of law. (This line of discussion risks getting political.)

Originally Posted By: haertig
What about that Mt. Gox disaster? Didn't people trust the owner with their Bitcoins, and then those subsequently went "poof"? And now Flexcoin is reportedly going down the drain. It seems you have to put a LOT of trust into Bitcoins, and apparently there have been some big losses due to this misplaced trust.
You're confusing bitcoins with an exchange that trades bitcoins. You don't need to store your bitcoins in an exchange, and indeed you shouldn't do that. Again, part of the attraction of bitcoin is that it gives you the freedom to be your own bank. (And with that freedom comes responsibilities.)

Originally Posted By: ireckon
I don't see Bitcoin (or something similar) as the future. I see an Internet-based barter system as the future. It's de-centralized and still works without electricity, although just locally.
I think we developed from barter to currency for a reason. That reason hasn't gone away, and never will.
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#269504 - 04/27/14 05:23 PM Re: Bitcoin: What's the Appeal? [Re: ireckon]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Again, Bitcoin is not currency according to the U.S. government. It's property. That automatically makes Bitcoin a type of barter system (exchange of services/goods). You can say the IRS designation does not rule the day. However, regular people like me must go with what the IRS says.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#269506 - 04/27/14 08:37 PM Re: Bitcoin: What's the Appeal? [Re: ireckon]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: ireckon
Again, Bitcoin is not currency according to the U.S. government. It's property.

That's just so they can justify taxing it. They can't control it, so the second best thing they can come up with is to tax it. But really, who cares what the U.S. government labels it? (other than as it relates to the taxation scenario)

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#269511 - 04/28/14 12:14 PM Re: Bitcoin: What's the Appeal? [Re: haertig]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2997
Originally Posted By: haertig
who cares what the U.S. government labels it? (other than as it relates to the taxation scenario)


Wouldn't you be double taxed, i.e, sales tax on the bitcoin "property" then sales taxes on whatever you purchase with it.

I'm thinking there would be legal differences should you have fraud or a dispute. IIRC the laws are stricter on posta/credit card fraud due to theft of currency, but someone stealing your bitcoin would be a lesser crime based on the value of the property stolen.

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