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#269085 - 04/15/14 06:34 PM Keep incandescents as a backup
benjammin Offline
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Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
In this age of LEDs, it might be worth reminding that in the event of EMP, an LED is just another solid state device that is susceptible. Having one or two incandescent bulb flashlights would be advisable.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
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#269087 - 04/15/14 06:55 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
MoBOB Offline
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Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
Or keep some LED flashlights in a lead-lined box?


Edited by MoBOB (04/15/14 06:55 PM)
Edit Reason: Did not capitalize the acronym.
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#269096 - 04/15/14 09:33 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: MoBOB]
yee Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 169
Originally Posted By: MoBOB
Or keep some LED flashlights in a lead-lined box?


EMP is controlled by a Faraday shield. Any box made of a conductive material should do the trick. Radiation itself is mitigated by lead but since light bulbs are not significantly affected by any reasonable doses, there is no need for lead lined boxes.

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#269097 - 04/15/14 09:53 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Newcandescent.com sell some very HD incandescent light bulbs. Various wattage bulbs available, all designed for "rough service".
Quote:
...The Newcandescent Inspiration
Larry Birnbaum said that he owes the idea for the Newcandescent light bulb to the many customers of his Light Bulb Store located in South Hackensack, New Jersey. When customers became aware of the Federal Law that would effectively ban incandescent bulbs, they started hording incandescents by buying in bulk. Larry says,“We are all somewhat addicted to the incandescent lightbulb and that soft warm glow. It is a very soothing and calming color of light." Larry went on to say that, "the inspiration to continue to manufacture the long-lasting (10,000 hours) rough service Newcandescent bulb that satisfies all federal requirements, is simply the result of what customers continue to want."...

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#269101 - 04/15/14 11:51 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: Russ]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Good riddance to incans. LEDs are vastly superior in every meaningful way.
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#269102 - 04/15/14 11:56 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: hikermor]
MDinana Offline
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Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Good riddance to incans. LEDs are vastly superior in every meaningful way.

Except color rendition, for the vast majority of bulbs (though gradually improving).

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#269103 - 04/16/14 12:11 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: hikermor]
PSM Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 77
Loc: Cochise Co., AZ
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Good riddance to incans. LEDs are vastly superior in every meaningful way.


How well do they warm your pipes if you put them under your house in a severe freeze?

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#269104 - 04/16/14 01:14 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
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Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Quote:
an LED is just another solid state device that is susceptible.


LEDs are actually quite tough little solid state devices being essentially Diodes even when compared to very fine tungsten filaments. During an EMP the driver circuitry may become damaged but if they fail the LEDs can be removed from the housings and 4 LEDs can be arranged in series with a 12V battery such as an SLA to produce some light. Getting light out of an incandescent bulb even if perfectly functional might be a little more tricky during an EMP as access to a working inverter may prove a little more difficult. A butane gas powered soldering iron might be worthwhile purchasing. Repairing a vacuum tungsten filament is virtually impossible at home.

The LEDs will also typically last 5-6 times that of incandescent if using a limited power setup such as a DC battery (not including the inverter losses) before the battery dies (assuming that the battery even has the load capacity to even run a 40-100 Watt incandescent).

A backup butane gas powered light source/latern would also be a worthwhile having for an EMP event.

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/Bullfinch_1616_Handilight_Gas_Lantern.html

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#269105 - 04/16/14 01:19 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
benjammin Offline
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Registered: 02/06/04
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For general purpose lighting, a lantern or similar gas powered light would be suitable. The only alternative I know of besides rare bullseye lanterns would be a carbide lamp as a flashlight type replacement.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#269106 - 04/16/14 01:58 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: MDinana]
hikermor Offline
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Originally Posted By: MDinana
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Good riddance to incans. LEDs are vastly superior in every meaningful way.

Except color rendition, for the vast majority of bulbs (though gradually improving).

I marvel at all the comments about color rendition on candlepower forums - sounds like a bunch of wine connoisseurs comparing vintages. I am quite content to simply have adequate light when I mash on the button. Nuances of color are rather peripheral.
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#269107 - 04/16/14 02:02 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: PSM]
hikermor Offline
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Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: PSM
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Good riddance to incans. LEDs are vastly superior in every meaningful way.


How well do they warm your pipes if you put them under your house in a severe freeze?


Interesting use of lights - I don't think I have ever used lights for that purpose. I would much prefer to use heat tapes, or let the faucets drip....
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#269108 - 04/16/14 02:21 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: hikermor]
UTAlumnus Offline
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Registered: 03/08/03
Posts: 1019
Loc: East Tennessee near Bristol
I don't recall where it was but I've seen an article about a city that replaced their traffic light bulbs with LEDs. The next winter, they found that they had a problem with snow & ice build-up on the traffic lights. The new LED bulbs didn't generate enough heat to keep them melted off.

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#269113 - 04/16/14 03:42 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
haertig Offline
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Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: benjammin
In this age of LEDs, it might be worth reminding that in the event of EMP, an LED is just another solid state device that is susceptible. Having one or two incandescent bulb flashlights would be advisable.

If you experience an EMP that wipes out your LEDs, wouldn't that same EMP also wipe out the electricity generation devices (generators, etc.) that you would depend on to power your backup incandescents? I think candle lanterns would be more useful after an EMP.

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#269114 - 04/16/14 03:46 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: yee]
MoBOB Offline
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Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
Originally Posted By: yee
Originally Posted By: MoBOB
Or keep some LED flashlights in a lead-lined box?
EMP is controlled by a Faraday shield.


Good point. Forgot my electronics training from 30+ years ago that I haven't used in 25+ years.
_________________________
"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

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#269120 - 04/16/14 05:23 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: hikermor]
Phaedrus Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3162
Loc: Big Sky Country
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Originally Posted By: PSM
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Good riddance to incans. LEDs are vastly superior in every meaningful way.


How well do they warm your pipes if you put them under your house in a severe freeze?


Interesting use of lights - I don't think I have ever used lights for that purpose. I would much prefer to use heat tapes, or let the faucets drip....


Hahaha! Of course not- you live in California! Don't you folks panic when it gets down to 45? grin
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#269122 - 04/16/14 06:14 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
Bingley Offline
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Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
LED vs. incandescents? Carbide lamp, boys! It's tried and true!

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#269124 - 04/16/14 11:36 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: Phaedrus]
hikermor Offline
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Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I haven't always lived in California. I have spent time in Illinois, Ohio, and Arizona. I think the coldest spot I have lived is Flagstaff, AZ- nothing between Flag and the north Pole but a barbed wire fence. We saw -40F routinely....The plumbing was installed for those conditions.

And, yes, nowadays in coastal Cal, anything below 50F is severe winter......
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#269139 - 04/16/14 08:00 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
Phaedrus Offline
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Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3162
Loc: Big Sky Country
I figured you had, Hikermor. I have a buddy in Mountain House, CA that [censored] every time it gets under 50, though. Typical!
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#269147 - 04/16/14 09:00 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 309
Loc: north central west TX
during ten years without electric lights we tried numerous methods and eventually went back to candles. if used inside a glass chimney they were pretty safe, easy, didn't smell, quick and simple.

we really came to hate wick and mantel oil lamps. too smelly, too hot, fragile, and a pain to be constantly refilling.

generally candles aren't cheap, so we'd go to large stores that sold candles and offer the management to buy the ones they'd pulled off the shelves due to fading/warping/damage/season. we'd get boxes full for pennies on the dollars.

these days we're on a solar system running the last of our compact fluorescents until they need replacing by LEDs, so candles are left to back-up.

re: EMP - in case that should ever happen, we keep a couple/three spare LED flashlights in a padded metal military ammo can, along with a solar battery charger, a few sanyo eneloop batteries and a tiny AM/FM radio.


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#269157 - 04/17/14 04:27 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: haertig]
benjammin Offline
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Registered: 02/06/04
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I was thinking of flashlights that were immediately rendered useless due to the solid state junction of the LED getting blown, as opposed to an incandescent flashlight which would last as long as the batteries held out.

Having an hour or so of usable light that you might otherwise not have could be an important consideration, especially if the emp drove the start of a SHTF situation.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#269159 - 04/17/14 05:11 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
Russ Offline
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Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
IIRC most of the energy in a nuc weapon derived EMP is in HF to low VHF radio spectrum, The EMP is captured and concentrated in long wire antennas such as power lines. I am not very concerned about LED flashlights being knocked out by an EMP. Anything powered through a wall outlet however...

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#269162 - 04/17/14 11:55 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: PSM]
Byrd_Huntr Offline
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Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: MN, Land O' Lakes & Rivers ...
You got that right PSM! When I was a teenage driver with a junker mobile, an old wool blanket and a strategically placed 100 watt bulb under the hood kept me mobile in the wintertime.
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#269169 - 04/17/14 03:12 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: Russ]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 483
Loc: Somerset UK
Originally Posted By: Russ
IIRC most of the energy in a nuc weapon derived EMP is in HF to low VHF radio spectrum, The EMP is captured and concentrated in long wire antennas such as power lines. I am not very concerned about LED flashlights being knocked out by an EMP. Anything powered through a wall outlet however...


Agree, I suspect that an LED flashlight would survive an EMP event.
I would however still urge that incandescents be stored just in case, and do not forget some low powered flashlight bulbs for extending battery life.

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#269173 - 04/17/14 05:09 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: adam2]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078


Quote:
Agree, I suspect that an LED flashlight would survive an EMP event.


But just to make sure during a HEMP E1 nanosecond pulse, these might help

http://techprotectbag.com/

to protect those valuable electronics such as SW radios/Funcubes/GPS/notebooks/cameras/watches etc including LED flashlights/Bulbs

then place in a good quality sealed Aluminium Breif Case Aluminium Brief Case.

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#269174 - 04/17/14 05:12 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Tarzan Offline
Member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Washington
Forgive me my ignorance, but if a faraday cage is a metal box, is my vehicles trunk adequate or do I need to research the matter more thoroughly? I ask this question for the benefit of others as well as my own stupid self

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#269178 - 04/17/14 05:31 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: Tarzan]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Quote:
Forgive me my ignorance, but if a faraday cage is a metal box, is my vehicles trunk adequate or do I need to research the matter more thoroughly? I ask this question for the benefit of others as well as my own stupid self


The Vehicle trunk will make for a Faraday cage but a electronic leaky one for the higher speed pulse effects such as intense X-ray induced Crompton electron cascade from a High altitude nuclear EMP (HEMP). It will be perfectly OK for the natural EMP such as SME's interaction with the earths magnetosphere and geomagnetic effects, which changes the impedance from the Power station Source to the distributed loads to induce high currents in long line transmission lines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

This may have even happened yesterday as 1/3 of the Scottish main land electricity supply failed to a cascading failure.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27058766

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#269405 - 04/24/14 06:34 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: Tarzan]
DesertFox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/04/07
Posts: 339
Loc: New York, NY
In that vein, how about the mylar bags that electronics are sometimes shipped in? I have some laying around. Would they offer any protection at all for radios and other electronics?

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#269406 - 04/24/14 07:07 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: wileycoyote]
ireckon Offline
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Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: wileycoyote
generally candles aren't cheap


I was going to say tea lights are cheap, but they aren't that cheap anymore.

I bought these in bulk 10 years ago for about $2 per 50. I guess I'm sitting on a small fortune. lol

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Light-In-the-Dark-Unscented-Tealight-Candles/22697463
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#269407 - 04/24/14 07:38 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: ireckon]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 309
Loc: north central west TX
Originally Posted By: ireckon
Originally Posted By: wileycoyote
generally candles aren't cheap


I was going to say tea lights are cheap, but they aren't that cheap anymore.

I bought these in bulk 10 years ago for about $2 per 50. I guess I'm sitting on a small fortune. lol

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Light-In-the-Dark-Unscented-Tealight-Candles/22697463



even at 10-20 cents each, they're still a heck of a deal.

we found tea candle only useful for slightly illuminating the darkness, but weren't worth much as task lights, like reading/cooking. they start off bright for a minute or two but once the pool of wax forms around the burnt-down wick, its more like moonglow.

better than nothing, and in an emergency like a black-out they do help keep fears at bay.

thnx for the comment (and reminder), ireckon.

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#269408 - 04/24/14 09:40 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: wileycoyote]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
My wife just told me those tea lights are $2.25 for 50 in the store at Walmart. That's 4.5 cents per candle, and even less if you buy a bigger bag. I don't know why the online price is so much higher.
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#269409 - 04/24/14 10:34 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: DesertFox]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3840
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: DesertFox
In that vein, how about the mylar bags that electronics are sometimes shipped in? I have some laying around. Would they offer any protection at all for radios and other electronics?


Mylar by itself is not conductive, and therefore cannot be a Faraday cage. Some of the bags used to protect electronics have metal shielding in the Mylar. Those may work.

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#269416 - 04/25/14 03:24 AM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Tealights and mylar. At work we call this scope creep. But at the shooting range, that term means something completely different, and disturbing.
_________________________
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

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#269566 - 04/29/14 03:56 PM Re: Keep incandescents as a backup [Re: benjammin]
cedfire Offline
Addict

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 659
Loc: Orygun
There's always the microwave theory -- good at keeping energy in, thus good at keeping energy out, too. Besides, if we get hit with an EMP, it's not like you will be needing the microwave to make popcorn. grin

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