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#268866 - 04/08/14 05:39 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: AKSAR]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Until we get a lot more info, I think people are going a bit over the top in condemning these people.

+1 AKSAR

I have not read anything yet to make me think these parents were negligent or reckless.

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#268868 - 04/08/14 06:43 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: Arney]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: Arney
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
Until we get a lot more info, I think people are going a bit over the top in condemning these people.

+1 AKSAR

I have not read anything yet to make me think these parents were negligent or reckless.

you have a one year old - that's endangerment. They can't walk without falling on level, stable ground. A rocking boat that typically has only guy lines on the edges isn't exactly a safe environment for them. Anyone that's watched a kid that young could tell you how fast they move or roll or fall. Even worse would be if they were confining the kid to the interior only.

I could care less if the kid was, say, 5.

As for reckless .... arguable. If the only experience they have is running ships up and down the coast doing deliveries, I'd be tempted to say they aren't experienced enough for the open ocean. Book smarts and passing USCG tests doesn't make you a master sailor. It just makes you a qualified one.


Edited by MDinana (04/08/14 06:44 PM)

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#268870 - 04/08/14 08:05 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: MDinana]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: MDinana
you have a one year old - that's endangerment. They can't walk without falling on level, stable ground. A rocking boat that typically has only guy lines on the edges isn't exactly a safe environment for them.
Do you know how their boat was set up? Would you know a properly set up boat if you saw it? (Hint: they aren't called "guy lines", the proper term is "life lines".)

People I've known who have taken kids sailing almost invariably rig extra netting inside the life lines to insure the kid doesn't fall overboard. They keep also keep the kid in a PFD with a tether when in the cockpit. To just assume that taking a one year old on a sailboat is automatically "endangerment" is bullsh*t.


Originally Posted By: MDinana
As for reckless .... arguable. If the only experience they have is running ships up and down the coast doing deliveries, I'd be tempted to say they aren't experienced enough for the open ocean. Book smarts and passing USCG tests doesn't make you a master sailor. It just makes you a qualified one.
Again, I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about regarding what is involved delivering small boats offshore up and down the west coast, let alone the license requirements for a 100 Ton captain:
Quote:
Prerequisites for Captain's License Master Near Coastal of Inspected Passenger Vessels Up to 100 Gross Ton
You must meet all of the prerequisites in this paragraph to receive a Master Near Coastal License for Inspected Passenger Vessels of up to 100 Gross Tons:
Must be 19 Years old
Must be able to document 720 days of experience on a vessel 360 of these days must have been on ocean or near coastal waters
Must have 90 days within the last 3 years
Your tonnage is determined by the U. S. Coast Guard depending on your experience for a 100 Gross Tons license, 180 days must be on vessels of 51 gross tons or above OR 180 days must be on vessels of 34 gross tons or above for a 50 gross tons license 180 days must be on a vessel of 26 gross tons or above. If all your time is on a vessel of 16 gross tons or less the license will be limited to 25 gross tons.
If you plan on operating an Inspected sailing vessel you must have a sailing endorsement, the required seatime for this is 360 days of sail or sail auxiliary time (these may be part of the 360 days and may be prior to license issuance.
Prerequisites and Standards Common to All Classes of U.S. Coast Guard Licenses / Credentials
All mariners must apply for a TWIC (Transportation Worker Identification Credential) before submitting an application packet to the U. S. Coast Guard. The TWIC information is available at their website.
When calculating qualifying sea time, you must have been underway on the water for a minimum of four (4) hours to count as one (1) sea day. (Only one day's credit is allowed per date.)
A U.S. Coast Guard approved CPR and First Aid course is required. (Adult CPR, basic First Aid). The First Aid must have been within the last 12 months and the CPR must be current. The Maritime Institute offers this course.
You must have passed a routine physical within the past 12 months. Vision must be at least 20/200, correctable to 20/40 in each eye. Color sense must be satisfactory (Waivers are available in some cases)
Drug screening is required. Your drug test must have been done within the last 6 months
DUIs, drug, and felony convictions are reviewed by the U. S. Coast Guard, and depending on the offense, there could be a one (1) to ten (10) year hold period before you are eligible to receive a license or credential
Military time and foreign time is evaluated for eligibility by the U. S. Coast Guard (NMC). This time is evaluated on a case by case basis
From: http://maritimeinstitute.com/license_requirements.html
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#268873 - 04/08/14 08:35 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: Bingley]
Mark_R Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Bingley

Me, I've sailed small boats on a lake in good weather. I wouldn't go anywhere near open seas.


Similiar experience here. I've never sailed anything bigger then a J/24, I've never gone outside of the harbor, and I've only sailed in whitecaps once (Victory 21 under main only).

It sounds like there are a couple of people here with blue water experience, so I'm going to defer to them on what is/is not prudent.
_________________________
Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane

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#268874 - 04/08/14 09:38 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: Mark_R]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
My experience is limited to 34' daysailing -- nice pleasant days and nothing close to the sea state described in the article. For me (not necessarily for this family) I'd like a bigger boat; hull speed generally increases with waterline length and they are usually more comfortable (in general, many parameters go towards calculating "comfort"). That said, smaller boats are easier to sail so it's a trade-off. Many boats smaller than Rebel Heart have sailed in the shorthand Transpac races between the West Coast and Hawaii, so 34' is not too small to go off-shore, but not with me. In the 2008 Transpac a Cal 20 finished but an Open 60 won.

This year's racers include 11 boats 30' and less. But that to me would not be a pleasant sailing experience. I s'pose it goes back to a time when ships were wood and men were steel.

I won't speak re taking children sailing other than to say ... nothing really comes to mind. I wouldn't take kids, but I don't have kids so that's why I can say that.

One of these years I may start looking at boats seriously again and when I do it will be with shorthanded sailing in mind. Right now it's not on the horizon.

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#268876 - 04/09/14 02:06 AM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: AKSAR]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: AKSAR
[quote=MDinana]snipped for brevity

So you're proposing to either A) tether a child, or B) wrap them in a life vest for a multi-month journey? I don't care how much netting you have, it's still a dangerous environment. How many sailors do the USCG and USN lose annually? They're adults, professional sailors, in relatively stable vessels.

I've sailed on several vessels on day trips and multi-day trips. Yes, I'm aware of the difference between guy and life lines. No, my experiences weren't including rough weather.
Edit: I see where I wrote "guy lines," and you're correct, I used the wrong terminology. Mea culpa.

As for the requirements, I have a cousin that has the same license. We spoke about it on a few occasions, so I know, roughly, what it entails. Like I said though, near-shore isn't the same as open-water experience. For example, most folks aren't going to try and weather a hurricane 10 miles off the coast, whereas they probably won't have a choice in the ocean. Ergo, they won't have experience in that environment.


Edited by MDinana (04/09/14 12:08 PM)

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#268880 - 04/09/14 03:45 AM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: MDinana]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: MDinana

A rocking boat that typically has only guy lines on the edges isn't exactly a safe environment for them. Anyone that's watched a kid that young could tell you how fast they move or roll or fall. Even worse would be if they were confining the kid to the interior only.

Were this actually a hard problem we'd be hearing constant reports of kids overboard. And yet we don't. The problem clearly needs attention but past results show it's not insolvable.

Originally Posted By: AKSAR
"...why didn't they fix the equipment that broke?", but in bad weather it can be very difficult to impossible at sea, even when you have the spares.

Part of Abby Sunderland's 3-year training for her trip was disassembling and fixing each major piece of equipment, or installing a spare, at sea and in bad weather. Bad weather is part of an around-the-world trip, not a surprise part. That was what I meant: if you're going to undertake certain activities you've got to prepare to deal with even the difficult scenarios.

As for a 406 beacon vs. satellite phone, what do you do with a sat phone? Ask someone back home to dial 911? Even if I had a sat phone link and a doctor said we'd have to evac the kid I'd use the 406 beacon so that all SAR teams got the right assignments, etc, and for the beacon's homing signal.

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#268887 - 04/09/14 03:02 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
chickenlittle Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 102
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: James_Van_Artsdalen

As for a 406 beacon vs. satellite phone, what do you do with a sat phone? Ask someone back home to dial 911? Even if I had a sat phone link and a doctor said we'd have to evac the kid I'd use the 406 beacon so that all SAR teams got the right assignments, etc, and for the beacon's homing signal.


Apparently with a satellite phone you can report the conditions to the Coast Guard so Navy, Air National Guard, and Medical teams can be dispatched to your actual location with what is needed, which is exactly what Eric Kaufman did.

Beacons do have uses, but in this case the phone was the better tool.

Also steering on a sailing vessel can be accomplished even without a rudder, so I am not sure how much trouble he was actually in regarding the soundness of his vessel.


Edited by chickenlittle (04/09/14 03:17 PM)

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#268888 - 04/09/14 03:02 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Just a historical footnote. In the late nineteenth century, it was not at all unusual for sailing captains to voyage with their families aboard, including very young children. I interviewed a lady who had spent her early years aboard her father's lumber schooner.

As I understand it, the trickiest parts of any voyage are those around land - reefs and shoals, and all of that. Once you are well away, your priorities change and you can relax to some degree. Coastal voyages aren't trivial and there are shipwrecks aplenty to prove it.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#268889 - 04/09/14 03:05 PM Re: Medical emergency at sea [Re: MDinana]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
MDinana,
You might want to read Raising a Child Dangerously: Adventure s... how to parent.

It is a frank discussion of the pros and cons, risks and rewards, of taking children on long sailing voyages. Also some info about how many people are actually doing it (quite a few, it seems).
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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