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#268403 - 03/20/14 11:09 PM Did we dodge CME bullet?
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
According to a Cal Berkeley physicist, we missed getting blasted back into the Stone Age by a grid-destorying coronal mass ejection in 2013 in this article. Actually, the plural is used in the Reuters article, so I guess we dodged a number of bullets. Similar in magnitude to the 1859 Carrington event, for those familiar with the history of CME's.

I don't know what to say to that. I mean, we almost lost basically ALL electronics and electrical power? I don't know how close (and I mean "close" in the astronomical scale) we came to being hit by a powerful CME, but it's still chilling.

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#268405 - 03/20/14 11:33 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Oh well, maybe next time. wink
-Blast, who needs to go caveman on some people
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#268408 - 03/21/14 01:00 AM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Quote:
I don't know what to say to that. I mean, we almost lost basically ALL electronics and electrical power? I don't know how close (and I mean "close" in the astronomical scale) we came to being hit by a powerful CME, but it's still chilling.


A CME of the scale of Carrington event would probably take down large parts of various electrical Grids throughout the world. Many of the Transformers on those Grids will fail and a proportion of them will catch fire and burn.

Having electronic RCDs protection will help with home fires etc. A Black Start might be required across the Electrical Grid and if many of the larger unprotected HVT transformers may well have been damaged where they may take many months to repair (not replace) if those transformers are unprotected in geomagnetic susceptible geographic regions.

Small portable battery powered electronics should be perfectly OK and won't be damaged if not connected to mains at the time. Small sensitive electronics can be protected using Surge Protection Distribution Boards/Uninterruptable Power Supplies UPS's would help considerably if connected to the mains electricity espcially if using RCD protected mains. As with vehicle electronics, they should be fine as well.

Panic would ensue after about 2 weeks without electrical power and much of the country in the US and UK would probably descend into Katrina disaster like chaos, but with no one coming to the rescue and a high probability of Martial law within the first week of the country going dark in the flickering light of the burning cities.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (03/21/14 01:00 AM)

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#268421 - 03/21/14 04:50 AM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
CANOEDOGS Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 1853
Loc: MINNESOTA
i don't follow the survival aspect of CME's all that much but i do read the science blogs.i get the impression we would know one is on the way.what could we do in those hours to protect our self.
like unplug the TV on a big scale?

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#268422 - 03/21/14 06:05 AM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
James_Van_Artsdalen Offline
Addict

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
It's a good idea to throw the breakers and unplug everything, but keep in mind that it may be *years* before you have electricity from the mains.

The thing I worry about are the nuclear power plants. You can them subcritical pretty quick, but a working reactor is full of radioisotopes than decay at their own pace and give off heat that must be removed lest everything melt. Normally grid power is used in a shutdown to power the cooling pumps with diesel generators as a backup, but if a CME nails the grid *and* the generators then you have a problem.

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#268425 - 03/21/14 12:49 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: CANOEDOGS]
barbarian Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/18/12
Posts: 70
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: CANOEDOGS
i don't follow the survival aspect of CME's all that much but i do read the science blogs.i get the impression we would know one is on the way.what could we do in those hours to protect our self.
like unplug the TV on a big scale?


Truthfully, there is very little to be done in the amount of time we'd have, that would effectively protect us.

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#268427 - 03/21/14 01:45 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2851
Loc: La-USA
I usually get 1-2 days notice, by keeping a watch on certain Internet forums and thru apps ( eg: NASA SPACE WEATHER). The only things I can think of are to disconnect electric or electronics from the power source and from antennas. A 10" or longer antenna will catch enough power to burn out circuits.

The only proven method of protection is to secure one 's equipment in a Farraday Cage.
_________________________
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#268428 - 03/21/14 02:45 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: James_Van_Artsdalen
...if a CME nails the grid *and* the generators then you have a problem.

Ever since Fukushima, I think we've all had a nasty firsthand wake-up call to potentially the worst after-effect of a CME event--potentially hundreds of nuclear reactors melting down at the same time.

Even if they are able to scram a reactor in time, unless the grid is able to resume providing power afterwards, or the grid is able to function enough to keep refineries going and new fuel deliveries flowing for the pumps/generators for weeks or months or possibly years, it's another Fukushima.

I wouldn't want to be in a nuclear-dense country like France or Japan if that happens.

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#268430 - 03/21/14 02:50 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: wildman800]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Not that I'm paranoid or anything, but an ammo can should make a good faraday cage for smaller electronics. I picked up a couple largish ammo cans that were designed for optics, foam padded on the inside. When not in use I keep my Goal Zero solar charging kit and some new Sanyo Eneloop batteries in one and a few radios and other electronic devices in the other.

Disconnecting from long antennas is a very good recommendation. In this case an antenna is any piece of metal than can capture and feed current to the electronics. A power cord is an antenna..

Big question is how well automobiles will do if we get hit. Radio antenna is an antenna and cars these days all have computers...

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#268432 - 03/21/14 02:53 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: wildman800]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
The after effects of such an event remind me of the book "Ride The Wilderness" by Michael Juge. An OK book, notable for only costing $1.99 in electronic form for Kindle and Nook. I just read this one not too long ago.

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#268433 - 03/21/14 02:56 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Arney -- IMO Fukushima was a major factor in San Onofre being shut down. Nuclear reactor, on the Pacific Ocean, lots of seismic activity... Do the math. Nuc engineer I know says the reactor was a different design, but the engineers in Japan probably thought they were good too. Group think...

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#268434 - 03/21/14 02:57 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2851
Loc: La-USA
There is the general consensus that 85% of operating vehicles will die and 50% will restart and operate normally. There is a video on YouTube that shows a test car being hit. It dies and won't even turn over but the battery is still good and it's power windows continue to operate. Pre 1972 vehicles are considered EMP proof because they don't have electronics installed.

Yes, a power cord will take in an EMP but it, like the antenna must be at least 10". Most power cords are approx 3-5 FEET in length.

Any Farraday cage must be well grounded in order to work.

Edited to include additional info.


Edited by wildman800 (03/21/14 02:59 PM)
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#268435 - 03/21/14 03:25 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: wildman800]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
When you say 10" are you referring to 10 inches (") or 10 feet (')?

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#268440 - 03/21/14 04:53 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2997
What year is/was the car on youtube? If newer there is probably a small fuse inline with the starter relay.

Modern card have more computers but also have better protected electronics. In the early days a transistor was simply a transistor, now inside that little package there are regulators, surge protection, etc so the components are made tougher. Also since the 70's the rubber in car tires now has metal added to make them conductive so the car is somewhat grounded.

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#268445 - 03/21/14 05:55 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Russ]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Russ
Arney -- IMO Fukushima was a major factor in San Onofre being shut down.

You're probably correct. I was still living close to San Onofre when they first discovered the steam generator tube degradation issue, and Fukushima was definitely still on my mind.

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#268458 - 03/21/14 08:27 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
So if this is what I read, we were about 2 weeks out of the way, correct?

And regarding EMP ... I thought it only affected items that were actively running power? Ie, if the TV was turned off at the time of event, it would be OK after the event (no power surge).

With 1-2 days warning, couldn't they just pro-actively shut down the grid for the duration of the event then re-start things?

Would this affect folks on the opposite side of the planet? Ie, Europe goes down and we keep chugging along?

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#268460 - 03/21/14 08:46 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2851
Loc: La-USA
It will have a effect on the backside as well. The amount of effect to the backside is not completely clear.

I seriously doubt if turning off appliances and electronics will have much of an effect because the power cord and antenna, if longer than 10" will pick up enough energy to burn out the interior circuitry. Disconnecting the antenna and power cord, at the unit would help but then the question remains as to whether there is sufficient wiring inside to pickup enough voltage to still fry everything inside.

In 1859, railroad ties & telegraph poles were set on fire and the telegraph poles had glass insulators between the wires and the wooden poles. Also, there weren't any grounding straps running down the poles or from the RR Rails.

The effects on today's infrastructure and equipment is still largely unknown despite 30+ years of testing and research.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#268467 - 03/21/14 11:24 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: wildman800]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
Originally Posted By: wildman800
I usually get 1-2 days notice, by keeping a watch on certain Internet forums and thru apps ( eg: NASA SPACE WEATHER). The only things I can think of are to disconnect electric or electronics from the power source and from antennas. A 10" or longer antenna will catch enough power to burn out circuits.

The only proven method of protection is to secure one 's equipment in a Farraday Cage.

Grounded or ungrounded? There is considerable debate over this currently.

I'm surprised that this is a topic now. I brought this up last year and it was met by a collective yawn...

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#268531 - 03/25/14 09:11 AM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: sodak]
adam2 Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 483
Loc: Somerset UK
One should take care not to confuse solar storms/CMEs with an EMP.

An EMP is the result of a nuclear detonation at high altitude, this would induce very damaging electrical currents in most any electronics within line of sight of the explosion.

A solar storm is a natural event occuring on the surface of the sun, the electrical and magnetic effects could be very damaging on earth, but are much less intense than a man made EMP. damaging effects are only likely in very long conductors or items connnected thereto.
Examples include high voltage grid lines, long distance copper telephone lines, and long pipelines.

I would not expect a solar storm to damage the following (unless they are connected to conductors many miles in length)

Hand held battery electronics
Vehicle electrics
Portable or mobile generators
Line powered equipment if unplugged at the time.
Domestic sized wind or solar power installations.

Large electrical facilities such as power plants and transformers should be safe if ISOLATED FROM LONG TRANSMISSION LINES in time.

Given a few hours warning of a severe solar storm, there is a lot that can be done, including.

Either order an orderly shutdown of the grid, or at least dividing it into small local sections
Hireing or requestioning mobile generators for vital facilities
Pre positioning road or rail tankers of fuel in suitable places
Ensuring that diesel and even steam powered locomotives are in suitable places, together with fuel.
Cancelling all police and military leave, posibly call up reserves.
Shut down oil refineries, and if possible physicly discconnect long oil or gas pipelines from the rest of the equipment.

In years gone by, long copper telephone or telegraph lines would be vulnerable, but are now fibre optic or radio links.

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#269587 - 04/30/14 02:14 AM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Arney]
Newsman Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 67
Loc: NW Arkansas
Here is a NASA-produced video (published April 28) on the double CME that happened 2 years ago. We did, indeed, dodge a bullet.

http://youtu.be/7ukQhycKOFw

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#269627 - 05/02/14 05:05 PM Re: Did we dodge CME bullet? [Re: Newsman]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Newsman
Here is a NASA-produced video (published April 28) on the double CME that happened 2 years ago. We did, indeed, dodge a bullet.

Thanks for that link, Newsman. I enjoyed watching that video. NASA is probably the only government agency that creates anything interesting to watch! smile

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