Temperatures have plunged here in the Sunshine State, reaching night-time lows approaching 50 degrees, presaging the entropy death of the universe...which brought this to mind: cold water boot camp

Based on the data presented, you slim fit types will float off this mortal coil in 10 hours of submersion, while us full figured folks will bob around like walruses for a day and a half, reminding us that survival value is highly situational.

But I don't wanna die in cold water. Lol. Seriously, this opened the little woman's eyes about going over water in Alaska. I foolishly pointed out that she had more body fat than I do, in the right places of course, now I'm on the doghouse. I seem to recall AKSAR saying that that survival times in cold water were a lot less than ten hours. I'm just guessing by his name but he would seem to know a lot on the subject. JMHO. Thanks for the link.

How long you survive in cold water depends on a number of circumstances.

Water temperature: The experts define "cold water" as anything below 70 F (21 C). That might seem somewhat warm, but the reason they use that number is because that is the water temperature in which you can maintain your body temperature more or less indefinately. Below that water temperature, your body will gradually loose heat and you will eventually become hypothermic. How fast you become hypothermic obviously depends on how cold the water is. You will live longer in Florida than in Alaska.

Flotation: In cold water, you loose strength and dexterity in your arms and legs long before your core becomes hypothermic. When your arms and legs give out you can no longer swim or tread water. Without a life jacket you will drown long before your core becomes hypothermic.

Gender and body type: There are small differences due to gender and body type. Skinny people get hypothermic slightly faster than well padded people. Men typically get hypothermic slightly faster than women. These differences are generally very small however.

This has led to the One:Ten:One principle for very cold water.

"One Minute" When you fall in cold water your first reflex will be gasping and hyperventilation. This can last from seconds up to a minute. Your first priority is to get your breathing under control and to not inhale any water.

"Ten Minutes" In really cold water you have about ten minutes of useful motion to save yourself. You can swim, grab a lifeline, etc. After about ten minutes you will no longer have effective use of your arms and legs, and without floatation you will drown!

"One Hour" With a life jacket, it will take at least an hour before your core temperature drops to the point of dangerous hypothermia. (Even in the coldest water, some people with life jackets have been successfully rewarmed even after a couple of hours.)

One:Ten:One is obviously an average, and assumes very cold water like we have in Alaska. In other areas, like Florida, the "One Minute" gasping reflex might be shorter, or not happen at all. Likewise the "Ten Minutes" of useful motion and "One Hour" time to hypothermia might be much longer.

Brain-eating amoebae in fl

jelly fisg stings in fl

shark attacks in fl

Here in Florida, we don't actually get to stay in the water long enough to get chilly.

AKSAR

Hence my search for a vest loaded with signaling and survival gear. But Mike had a link to Cold Water Boot Camp So my concern with cold water in this thread. I remember you explaining part of this to me on my thread Looking For A Special PFD. Thanks for the expanded information. I've been looking for similar information in the waters of the tropical islands. But have had no luck.

Mike

At least your sharks are native,free range like the neighbors chickens who devastated my gardens and yards. Months ago I saw an article where they were turning Sharks loose off the coast of Cape Cod, 14 of them I think, including some great whites.

As I indicated, in warmer water you last longer. I seem to recall reading that in WWII in the S Pacific, some sailors floated in lifejackets for 24 hours or longer, and survived. In that case, as Nursemike indicated, sharks and other marine life become bigger issues. Not to mention sunburn, dehydration, skin damage due to prolonged water immersion, etc etc.

Any estimate of survival time in water (cold or otherwise) is just an educated guess. In Alaska the USCG routinely searches for people in the water a good deal longer than the charts would suggest you could survive. They like to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You're not dead until you're warm and dead.

" I've been looking for similar information in the waters of the tropical islands. But have had no luck."

There is an interesting map in one of the classic survival texts, "The Survival Book", by Paul Nesbitt, Alonzo Pond, and William Allen, 1959. On page 11 is a diagram titled "Expected Time of Survival of Men Immersed in the Sea -February. They depict Area F - Indefinite (depends upon fatigue)- basically area F is everything between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. Alaska falls into Area A-less than 3/4of an hour. Off coastal California (area D) survival is less than 6 hours. These times are for men in "ordinary clothing and a life preserver". They say nothing about those in the population with properly distributed fat....

Hmmmm interesting. Thanks hikermor

In WWII during Typhoon Cobra (AKA "Halsey's Typhoon"), at around Latitude 15 deg in the Phillipine Sea, three US Navy destroyers were sunk and 790 sailors died. Remarkably a few survived, 62 from the USS Hull, 6 from the USS Monahan, and 23 from the USS Spence.

While a few of these survivors were on small rafts or other debris, the majority of them were floating in kapok life jackets. Many were in the water for more than 48 hours. The last survivor recovered alive was from the Spence, which capsized and sank around 1100 on December 18. He was spotted floating in his life jacket on the the afternoon of December 21.

The book "Halsey's Typhoon" (2007) by Drury and Clavin is a good read.

It is worth mentioning that a wetsuit can be a critical item in surviving hypothermia. I am referring to a nice 1/4"thick custom tailored wetsuit with an integral hood, although anything neoprene helps. One guy floated around in our local water for more than 24 hours, before encountering an oil platform and hauling himself out. In another instance, an urchin boat sank - the divers aboard were wetsuited, others were not. A diver and his fiancee clung together for several hours. He was wetsuited;she was not. Eventually she expired and sank from sight. He was rescued.

If you are not a scuba diver, an immersion suit is probably the ticket....

That's sad. Maybe I was raised better than he was, but I'd have given my wife my wetsuit. And a better chance at surviving. We have custom made wetsuits, with our physiques there was no other choice. She bought a shorty wetsuit that zips in the front off the rack. It's more of a fashion statement because she cant zip it closed past well below her solar plexus. We took the customs as well as survival suits on a short trip of two weeks once. This raised some eyebrows but we told them that we intended to survive at all costs. And that if they felt safe with their life raft and it's meager supplies then more power to them, but we were taking everything we could if we had to abandon ship. We didn't take them on either trip and I have no intention of taking them on this one, but somewhere I have some old survival/shark sacks from the 1970's. Not sure if anyone is familiar with them or not. I doubt they would even work after all these decades.

On that subject I saw a pic of the fisherman who claimed he had drifted for over a year today on MSN.
I have my doubts. He was found in Feb, and I doubt he had a years worth of food on his boat. Admittedly I know very little of this story, but he seems awfully... well padded for being out there so long. His face and hands are fat and I just don't see that happening while floating around or since being found. I may be wrong. Anyone have any opinions on the matter?

I would agree with your sentiments and I hope I would do the noble thing in a similar situation. However, consider that to be effective, a wet suit must fit quite snugly and completely. One that fits you properly likely will not insulate a woman (that fat differential distribution thing again). In addition, if you are in the water and attempt to don and doff a wetsuit, I suspect that the energy expended would doom both parties. I am not sure i could even put on a wet suit while in the drink - its tricky enough when out of the water.

A properly fitting suit yeah. But still I think if it filled with water her heat might have helped warm it, kind of like that old bag they experimented with, filled with water and pulled around the survivor.

One solution would be to dive in a dry suit - they would have more fitting flexibility. Or go all the way and get an immersion suit - a great Valentine's Day present!

It costs a fortune to have clothing made for her lol. I bought her a Randall for Valentines day this year.

I think hikermor is probably right on this one. I seem to recall that in one of Prof Popsicle's (Dr. Geisbrecht's) videos he had people try to put on an ordinary life jacket while swimming in cold water. My recollection is that very few were able to do it successfully. His conclusion was that if you aren't already wearing it when you go in the drink, you probably won't be able to put it on after you are in the water.

A wet suit would no doubt be much much harder. Trying to take your's off and put it on someone else would probably just mean you would both die.

hypothermia is my #1 survival sweat.the water in northern Minnesota canoe country is cold year round. plus getting wet and not having dry clothes or a dry sleeping bag is right up there with a swim to shore.

Ok AKSAE, we experimented with the wetsuit change. According to the weather service it was 540 hear, but feels like 30. I have no idea what the water temp is here, but when it hit my bare skin I did yelp a bit. I wore a wetsuit, she wore jeans and T shirt and cross trainers when we jumped in the pool. We treaded for fifteen minutes then began the exchange. She dumped her shoes and it wasn't easy to get my suit off but I did. Took a bit of time to get it right side out and I had to help her into it and zip it shut, It was doable, not as hard as I expected, but we weren't fighting extreme cold temperatures, waves and currents. After ten minutes or so she said she felt a little warmer so we terminated the experiment and headed for the hot tub.

Interesting! I am a bit surprised you could even change the wetsuit. But you really should stay immersed for ...oh...six hours or so..

Good job! Glad to know that it is in fact possble.

it worked under controlled conditions. We'll try it in a lake and later in deep water. She's a trooper, but she drew the line at trying it in Alaskan waters. One note, after she was suited I did have her assume the HELP posistion and I supported her in it.

Isn't this the same person who did a video with Les Stroud on managing yourself in cold water situations?

Just ran across the account of this incident. It seems typical, in that a very serious situation appeared at the outset to be rather trivial:

Buffalo National Scenic River (AR)
Hypothermic Hiker Rescued From Ponca Wilderness

On March 16th, northwest Arkansas received about two inches of rain overnight and had temperatures in the low 30s, leading to a sleet/snowstorm that eventually dropped three to four inches of snow.

While on patrol in the Steel Creek area of the park, protection ranger Mark Miller contacted a visitor for speeding. The man told Miller that he was rushing in order to shuttle out people who’d hiked out from an overnight stay in the Ponca Wilderness, adding that one of the hikers, a young woman, was not feeling well due to being sick earlier in the week.

Miller offered to assist with the shuttle and hiked down the trail to check on the young woman. He contacted several members of the hiking party who affirmed that she wasn’t feeling well, but did not give Miller the impression that she was in need of assistance. Further down the trail, he contacted a man from the party who informed him that she was unconscious.

Miller immediately stepped up his response, contacting the Midwest Region Ozark Communication Center and asking that they send out an alert for the Buffalo Search and Rescue Team. A mile and a half down trail, Miller found the 17-year-old girl, who was semi-conscious, wrapped in a wet sleeping bag with her mother. She was placed in a heat blanket and a sleeping bag and then onto a litter for transport and was treated for hypothermia and very low blood sugar by an on scene paramedic.

Responders conducted a carryout over a mile and a half of very rough muddy trail and across one high water creek. The mother was treated for mild hypothermia and was able to hike out on her own.

Due to nearly whiteout conditions, the Air Evac helicopter was unable to respond, so the girl was taken by ambulance to North Arkansas Regional Medical Center in Harrison, Arkansas, which is over an hour from the trailhead. At the hospital her core temperature was discovered to be 84 degrees. Miller’s attention and quick response likely saved the lives of two under prepared hikers.

From the NPS Morning Report

Good job NPS! You guys rock!

That kind of weather, wet with air temp near freezing, is a classic set up for hypothermia. In many ways that can be harder to deal with than air temps below freezing. A victim with core temp of 84 is definately a very serious situation.

Besides the all too obvious lesson for hikers to be prepared with proper clothing and rain/wind protection when hiking, I see two other important points:

1. Rescuers should treat all searches as serious emergencies (until proven not serious). This will inevitably lead to some false alarms and unnecessary (only in hindsight) responses. But to have delayed in this case could easily have meant a recovery rather than a rescue!

2. If possible, rescuers should always try to have a "Plan B" for evacuating the victim. It is often wise to launch the ground ambulance even if you think you can use a helicopter. That way when the weather becomes unflyable or the helo has mechanical issues, or whatever, you already have the backup plan in motion. You can always turn the ambulance around if the helo arrives and picks up the patient.

For anyone who really wants to understand cold water survival and the physiology behind it, get yourself a copy of "Essentials of Sea Survival". Even Doug considers this book "a must read for anyone interested in the subject of water survival". I would go so far as to add that it is essential info for landlubbers as well (like me!) because when you really understand the physiology, it will inform your survival knowledge when on land in tough conditions.

Unfortunately the paper book is very expensive now; I suppose it has gone out of print. However the Kindle version is quite reasonable at about $15.

"Essentials of Sea Survival" is a good book. I bought my copy a few years back and paid a normal book price for it. I'm astonished how expensive used copies are! Hopefully it will be reprinted at a reasonable price, for those who prefer a conventional book rather than Kindle.

"2. If possible, rescuers should always try to have a "Plan B" for evacuating the victim. It is often wise to launch the ground ambulance even if you think you can use a helicopter."

Absolutely! I have fond memories of the occasion when, the helicopter having just gone into a hover ready to hoist our victim out of a deep wilderness situation, the pilot announced that he had just gotten a red light on his panel (something to do with his rotor mechanism), he was going to leave, and would return as soon as everything was airworthy again. Indeed he did, a couple of hours later.

Helos are absolutely wonderful, they save lives and a lot of very hard work routinely, but yes, you always should have a plan B ready.

I was watching Ray Mears' segment on sea survival last night and discovered that "Essentials of Sea Survival" authors Drs. Tipton and Golden appear at the 7:00 mark. In the lab they induce hypothermia in a subject to demonstrate the decline of hand motor skills in the cold.