just rec'd my 'b' sawyer classification from the forest service. will be using 6' two-man bucking saw.

q. any tips or hints for carrying the wedges, lubricant, handles?

sure, they could go in the backpack, but think outside storage would be more handy & practical.

?

thanks!

Crosscut or Chainsaw?

Bucking or Felling?

Clearing or thinning?

Wilderness, remote or driveup?

Are you limited to the B 24"?

Mostly, how much are you moving and how far must you haul it before starting to work?

Thanks.

Respectfully,

Jerry

thanks for your response. see below.

For work in a local area I always preferred a bucket like the Klein (http://www.benmeadows.com/klein-tools-canvas-tool-bucket_s_132405/?searchterm=bucket) The stay open bucket is easy to get to and easy to return to. Hand carry in a local area is OK. When traveling I prefer a pack style. In years past I have seen buckets with pack straps (I think they were actually rope buckets, but they worked if the back was padded. Since you are already carrying a pack, that won't work either. I have seen some sawyers who use a vest like: http://www.benmeadows.com/swedepro-forestry-tool-vests_36808761/ to carry their gear. Personally I find it confining, particular when using a crosscut. Another technique would be to find a way to clip or hang your bucket from the Pack you carry (I have done this when carrying a chainsaw on a pack frame). Just make sure it is secure and not swinging around.

No association with Ben Medows, just use them a lot and knew the URL. I am sure there are similar items from other suppliers.

Respectfully,

Jerry

p.s. Congrats on your B, hope it comes with a healthy raise! jf

jerry,
thanks for the leads.

"p.s. Congrats on your B, hope it comes with a healthy raise! jf"

no, actually i'm a volunteer, as are all of the sawyers i work with in our area. apparently the forest service has no funds for what we do.

Not sure I should chime in, since I'm not a sawyer in any officially recognized capacity. I'm just a regular run-of-the-mill feller.

I'd like to hear more about the work you're doing, bsmith. Sounds interesting ... and worthwhile.

And regarding transportation: if the terrain isn't too rough, or the deadfall too thick, maybe something like a wheelbarrow with an oversized bicycle wheel? Or a bicycle rigged for cargo instead of riding? Just a notion.

I believe wheels of any kind are not allowed in USFS wilderness.

>> certain areas of our national forests, by law, are designated wilderness. many things and activities are prohibited, chainsaws being one. so when a tree has fallen across a trail, or is a hazard, a hand crew needs to go in and remove the portion of the tree that's blocking the trail or take down the hazard tree. in our area that work is done by volunteers. the volunteers need to be certified-by-the-forest-service sawyers. class 'b' can work on any fallen tree < 24" in diameter. we typically use two-man, 6 foot or more, saws. think 1800s saws.

>> no wheeled vehicles. wheelchairs are the only exception.

Weren't those saws known as "misery whips"?

definition of wilderness - "a place where the hand of man has never set foot."

i've heard that term before.

this is me and the boys.

Thanks for the photos you linked via PM. I think you should share a few here, along with some safety notes. And how do you maintain those great old saws? Inquiring minds want to know.

BTW, what's with the absolute restriction on wheels? Philosophical line in the sand? Reduction of erosion channels? Just curious.

-Doug

P.S., Volunteers absolutely rock!

I think the restriction of wheels is mostly philosophical. Probably horses, which are fine, cause as many problems as wheels would.

I totally agree with you about volunteers. I have both utilized the services of volunteers and been one myself.Many worthwhile things in both the Park Service and the Forest Service would not get done, if it were not for voluneers...

I will let bsmith chime in but I would expect that the saws are new ones. They are still made and are readily available on the market. http://www.benmeadows.com/two-man-crosscut-saw-without-handles-55l-x-5-516w_s_150357/

Maintainence is the same as it always was, clean the sap with mineral spirits (or some other cleaner) and protect them with a preservative like oil, tallow, wax, corrosion inhibitor, etc. Just make sure the surface is smooth, not tacky. Otherwise it makes it harder to pull through the tree. A file to sharpen every day and you are good to go. Much easier to maintain than a chainsaw, but more effort to use - most of the time. When you have to carry it a long way for a few cuts, the crosscut can be lots easier over the day. Or if the gas is bad, plug wire breaks, etc. Sometimes KISS is best.

You are absolutely right about volunteers, they keep much of this country going.

Respectfully,

Jerry

in our area we are fortunate to have a forest service volunteer who has been a sawyer for years and has taken it upon himself to maintain the saws. as i am discovering, this seems to be the case in other areas as well.

these saws are old. the 'golden age' of cross cut saws was 1880 - 1930. i keep reading that the saws made today do not have the same type steel nor workmanship. i have no personal experience with the new saws. but the old ones sure do the job!

regarding maintaining the saws, i'm told that 'sharpening' a saw takes about one hour per foot of the saw. one has to make sure the saw is straight, set the set, one has to measure, adjust and ensure that the raker teeth are at the right depth below the cutter teeth, and then one has to sharpen the cutters. and not necessarily in that order. there are specialized tools and instruments - that are no longer made - for these tasks and can be found if one looks. touch-ups may be possible in the field, but discouraged as the teeth can bite!

to see what it takes, go here: Warren Miller, Crossut Saw Manual and open the pdf.

it is also possible to find services online that will sharpen these for you. it appears they are also past forest service employees / volunteers who have learned through experience.

for an in-depth look at the sawyer process, which makes for very interesting reading, see the forest service manual here: Saws that Sing

there is an updated version of the usfs manual, but not much has changed.

Thanks for the links! Great stuff.

bsmith,

Thanks for the links!!!! I have never seen a long joiner. Now I want one. (Even though I don't have a two man saw any more.)

Good reads both.

Respectfully,

Jerry

as requested, these photos are from a project in our area. chainsaws not allowed - two-man saw does the job. trail now passable to people and stock.


note log across trail. assessing worksite for hazards.


work site discussion.


beginning first cut - downhill side.


beginning second cut - uphill side.


saw jammed at unseen rotted wood near bottom of log.


unjammed saw, second cut finished, moving log.


mission accomplished.

note hardhats, eye protection, long sleeves, long pants, gloves and boots.

at your service.

you are welcome.

the saws are a piece of history and lore that remain indispensable today.

we don't need no stinking chainsaws.

As one who has gaily tripped by cleared logs, glancing casually at the massive saw cuts, I owe you and your buddies a great many thank yous, especially since i have also fought my way through the tangle and jumbles of numerous windfalls. You make life easier for a lot of people.

Would your sawn log have been on the Reyes Peak trail by any chance?

thank you for that. we always receive a positive response from hikers who catch us working. even those who may have to wait a few minutes until we stop and make the work site safe to pass over, around or through.


good eye! specifically: N 34 38 03, W 119 16 44.

bsmith,

Thanks for the pictures! I can just imagine the smell of the fresh pine. And thanks for the work, we all appreciate it.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I usually carry my wedges in a piece of fire hose. They get beat up and mushroomed, and cracked edges can snag clothing in your pack. My pack has an outside mesh pocket that keeps them readily available. Don't just reserve your aluminum wedges for hangers, they are great in the kerf and much less likely to spit the way a plastic wedge will.

As for Ben Meadows, I would avoid those Curtis Fastcutter saws unless it was the last saw on earth. The steel is soft, the plate is flat ground (if ground at all), and the saw will arrive dull and unset. That said, they can be made to cut, but why? With all the good used saws out west, no volunteer sawyer should have any trouble finding a good one at auction.

Uh oh, I think I may have gone too negative on my first post. My apologies. The Curtis saw company made very good saws back "in the day". Their modern saws (or whoever is making them with the Curtis brand) are not the same tool. I have filed a lot of crosscut saws and counseled new sawyers on good ones to buy. There are plenty of good saws still available if you look. NGOs and certain US agencies typically don't buy tools on Ebay, so they purchase what's available in the retail marketplace, which is to say, not much. Those "new" saws then make their way into tool rooms, and if not intercepted by a decent filer, are misery whips out of the box.

It's clear that you're intimately familiar with this topic. So I'm curious: what sort of work do you do, what led you here, and why crosscut saws instead of chainsaws?

great idea for transporting the wedges. i've got some coming when available. and i hope to make more use of the hanging wedges than what i've seen in use so far. i have a pair from littco.

and i've got a saw coming ~ disston 6', perforated lance, western handles - may be a bit heavier but worth the weight in hand protection and usefulness.

chainsaws allowed on the at or is your work in a wilderness?

Thanks for the information, even though it makes me sad. I have only used an older Curtis and it was a very workmanlike saw. Maybe not the top, but a good, solid tool.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I'm retired, but I volunteer for an AT trail club. I was doing a search on crosscut saws and saw a link to this site. For firewood and the occasional ice storm or hurricane, I use a chainsaw. All the rest is crosscut saws and axes, as I like the hands-on feel of traditional tools.

I work in both and prefer crosscuts. I volunteer mostly in Shenandoah NP, but I also maintain a trail in Michigan.

Older Curtis' are fine saws. It's the newer ones that require more work. Once filed up they will cut ok.

I have a question. What hand saw would you recommend that is smaller than the traditional cross cut? Something that a lone individual could use capably?

there are one-man crosscuts that are available - again, i've heard and read that the vintage ones are probably superior.
a handle can be attached at the hole near the top of the handle for one-man use or moved to the hole near the tip for two-man use. the teeth at the tip allows for a final cut that doesn't bind the saw. they vary from 3' - 5' feet in length.


if you're referring to modern, lightweight and packable, the crews i've been with seem to lean towards silky saws - big boy . it is surprising how much damage a hand saw can really do when given the opportunity.

+1 on the Silky. I've carried a Sugoi for a couple years now and it's a fantastic (though pricey) saw. A simple 13" Corona pruning saw is cheap and will readily cut small stuff up to 8" or so. Can't beat the weight, but if you've never used one, they cut on the PULL stroke.

I've single bucked some pretty big trees on logouts, but in those cases I went into the woods with a larger saw knowing I'd use it. If just hiking around, I leave the crosscut in my truck and carry the Silky.

Thank you very much for the info. I had heard good things about the Silky, so I went down to the bank, got a second mortgage, and obtained a Pocket Boy. In the meantime, I used a locally obtained Corona to hack away at my shrubbery. Indeed, you learn right away it cuts on the pull stroke.

Now here's another question, one with some teeth in it. I really value the saw on my Leatherman Wave, but I use it sparingly in order to keep it sharp for those really critical jobs. How would one go about sharpening the saw blade on the typical multitool?

Leatherman's warranty service is nothing less than amazing. If you dull the saw on your Wave, I'm very confident that Leatherman will sharpen or replace the tool for the cost of postage.

But what will I do while my L tool is in the shop? I will probably exhibit all the classic withdrawal symptoms - shock, nausea, pallor, etc.

Nice to know though, thanks. (Actually I will be fine - I have a back up...)

Tsk! Send it away to be sharpened? What kind of manly-man response is that?

Okay, I admit it, it's pretty tough to sharpen those double-cut jobs by hand.

A crude job is possible: you can use a diamond-shaped file like these* or even a flat diamond file that's thin enough to reach in and sharpen each individual tooth. Without a perfect match between tool and saw, it's a bit of a butcher job -- but you can still make them cut better.

The rub: as you wear down the teeth, you also reduce the "set" that gives you a friction-free channel, keeping the blade from binding in the cut. So there's no free lunch here.

*http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32951&cat=1,43072,43089

If you dull the saw on your Wave, I'm very confident that Leatherman will sharpen or replace the tool for the cost of postage.

I checked the Leatherman site, and they specifically exclude sharpening under their warranty service. No mention of what they might charge. i agree that the manly thing to do is sharpen it yourself. What kind of file?

For a knife or MT based saw, I like a slip stone like this:
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=91
I do prefer the medium grit which is no longer available, but the fine will do an excellent job, just slower. Natural stones are also available in the same shape. Flat diamond sharpeners like the DMT that dougwalkabout linked above would also work. DMT makes several styles that will fit into small places. Others probably make them too.

With any saw wear will ultimately make it not work well. The loss of set is more of a problem with knife or MT based saws. On some of the Leatherman tools the blades are replaceable at home. On others you would have to send it in.

Respectfully,

Jerry

p.s. The owner of Spyderco is an old friend and I have helped them in their business for years.

if anticipating obstructions, my trail saw is a corona. already have a second mortgage - so no silky for me just yet.

if unanticipated obstructions - especially at eye level my archenemy - my leatherman has proven to be more than adequate. don't hurry the job and it works fine. obviously, no felling sequoias in its future.