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#266530 - 01/13/14 04:55 AM Frostbite protection?
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
This recent cold weather, and some of the posts here regarding it, have gotten me thinking about frostbite.

What is the best way to protect your face? The bank robber style face mask seems like it should cover the vulnerable spots, but I find they get wet from breathing condensation. Do the mouth and eye holes expose frostbite-prone skin?

What did the old-time Yukon trappers do? Or was frostbite the least of their worries?

And a somewhat related question. On heavy arctic parkas, why is there fur around the opening of the hood? The hood is still wide open. I understand the insulating effect of fur against your body, but why around the opening? It can't be just for decoration.

I'm interested in any info. Thanks!

David

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#266532 - 01/13/14 01:24 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
JerryFountain Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 418
Loc: St. Petersburg, Florida
bigmbogo,

The two are the question and a primary answer. The hood is the primary protection from frostbite for the face. If the hood has a proper tunnel (a deep one, mine is over 6" deep when forward) the air in front of your face is warmer that that outside, often LOTS warmer. The opening can also be closed down to a small circle. The ruff helps to keep the air in the hood from convecting. The big problem is that wind can blow away that warm air. The fur helps hold the still air and prevents wind from bouncing off the inside of the tunnel. If you don't have a ruff, you can only walk downwind. With a good ruff you can walk maybe as much as 45 degrees into a gentle wind. If the wind is strong the Inuit (and most others) will not travel. They find a sheltered spot (even a small depression), take off their mittens and sit on them. Back to the wind they pull their knees up inside their parka and wait out the wind. Some of the most patient people I have ever met. In northern villages a wind indicator is much more prized than a thermometer. The temp can be delt with but not the wind. The military and others who have no choice try to cover as much as possible using a blaclava or mask. A separate face mask (scarf or resperator cup) and goggles can be worn over the over the openings in the face mask and the scarf moved around or replaced when it fills with ice. That helps keep the moisture out of the balaclava or face mask.

The fur ruff also helps with the moisture problem. Wolf is usually considered the best because the fur is tapered and when ice freezes on the ruff a good shake or brush with the mitt will remove the frost. The Inuit go a step further with double sided fur parkas. They reverse the parka when it begins to build up moisture on the inside, let it freeze and brush/knock the ice off. The same with their fur sleeping bags.

For a very interesting discussion try "Hunters of the Northern Ice" and "Paradise Below Zero". Both excellent descriptions of the old and very successful methods of enjoying extreme cold.

Respectfully,

Jerry

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#266534 - 01/13/14 02:46 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
I agree that the biggest issue with cold is actually the wind.

None of the knit or woven face masks do a good job of keeping out the wind, but work pretty well at keeping your face warm enough to avoid frost bite, at least until you get to really cold temperatures.

Anything below about -20F is difficult to begin with and even a relatively light breeze can make it all but impossible.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

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#266538 - 01/13/14 02:56 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
you should have spoken to me a week ago. I was out on foot - in the middle of that polar air mass that hit the Midwest. I was also unprepared, since I was just travelling through the region. I am mildly surprised that I didn't get some frostbite. The wind chill temp was -30 to -40 degrees that night.

As an emergency measure, get ANYTHING over your face to cut the wind. A large bandana would help. I started using an old T-shirt as a bandana ... I didn't cut it. I just wrapped it around my neck and face.

Otherwise as people have indicated, get a coat with a "tunnel hood". Use a couple of pegs or clips to close off the tunnel, if the wind is very strong. The only issue is that you can hardly see when you do that. But if your face is frozen, you can hardly see anyway.

good luck,
Pete


Edited by Pete (01/13/14 02:57 PM)

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#266540 - 01/13/14 03:28 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
RNewcomb Offline
Member

Registered: 04/19/12
Posts: 170
Loc: Iowa
When I was a kid in middle school, my mom bought me a "Snorkel" coat. It had a hood with fur around the edges, a great zipper and straps that could be tightened to keep the cold out.

I remember many of days some of my friends would laugh a little about that coat, saying I looked like an Eskimo. There was one particularly cold winter day however, where my friends teasing quickly turned to envy when we had to walk home with a bitter wind coming out of the north. Two of my friends suffered minor frostbite on their ears that day, and never forgot their hats again after that.

The coat was heavy, but I never had to worry about losing a hat. To this day, I have trouble purchasing any kind of winter coat that doesn't have a hood.

I'm rather fond of Carharrt/Dickies winter wear. (No affiliation, just a fan) Both my kids have the "active jacket" type of winter coats, and although my daughter wasn't thrilled with the "style", she's thanked me several times when she's had to walk home this winter so far.

Rod

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#266541 - 01/13/14 04:31 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
Colourful Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/14/07
Posts: 87
Loc: Yukon
Fleece with a wind protection membrane makes great balaklava or scarf. Goggles tend to fog up but to avoid condensation, I exhale blowing down.

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#266542 - 01/13/14 04:48 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: JerryFountain]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: JerryFountain
..... The hood is the primary protection from frostbite for the face. If the hood has a proper tunnel (a deep one, mine is over 6" deep when forward) the air in front of your face is warmer that that outside, often LOTS warmer. The opening can also be closed down to a small circle. The ruff helps to keep the air in the hood from convecting. The big problem is that wind can blow away that warm air. The fur helps hold the still air and prevents wind from bouncing off the inside of the tunnel. If you don't have a ruff, you can only walk downwind. With a good ruff you can walk maybe as much as 45 degrees into a gentle wind. If the wind is strong the Inuit (and most others) will not travel. They find a sheltered spot (even a small depression), take off their mittens and sit on them. Back to the wind they pull their knees up inside their parka and wait out the wind. Some of the most patient people I have ever met. In northern villages a wind indicator is much more prized than a thermometer. The temp can be delt with but not the wind. ......

For a very interesting discussion try "Hunters of the Northern Ice" and "Paradise Below Zero". Both excellent descriptions of the old and very successful methods of enjoying extreme cold.
Jerry has it right. I think in an older thread I mentioned that the coldest ambient temperature I have ever personally experienced was about minus 60 F (-51 C) while visiting a seismic crew near Prudhoe Bay. There was just the faintest breeze blowing that day. Wearing the the "full Monty" arctic gear, with a face tunnel on my parka hood, I still absolutely could not face directly into that whisper of a breeze. However, at even a slight angle I was OK.

Jerry mentioned the book "Hunters of the Northern Ice". It is a great book, which talks about the traditional ways of the Iñupiat of Alaska. The author, Richard K. Nelson, is an anthropologist who studied the indigenous people of Alaska, and their relationships with the natural world. I also like Nelson's "Shadow of the Hunter" which follows the life of the Iñupiat through the seasons. Another book of his, "Hunters of the Northern Forest", focuses on the Athabaskans of interior Alaska.

Great books, all.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#266544 - 01/13/14 06:17 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
TeacherRO Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 03/11/05
Posts: 2574
Start with a scarf; windproof is possible. I've started packing fleece scarves in most of my kits.

In extreme cold, hat, hood, goggles, facemask

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#266546 - 01/13/14 06:31 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: AKSAR]
JerryFountain Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 418
Loc: St. Petersburg, Florida
[quote=AKSARJerry mentioned the book "Hunters of the Northern Ice". It is a great book, which talks about the traditional ways of the Iñupiat of Alaska. The author, Richard K. Nelson, is an anthropologist who studied the indigenous people of Alaska, and their relationships with the natural world. I also like Nelson's "Shadow of the Hunter" which follows the life of the Iñupiat through the seasons. Another book of his, "Hunters of the Northern Forest", focuses on the Athabaskans of interior Alaska.

Great books, all.
[/quote]

Absolutely great books! Anyone who is trying to live in colder (below freezing) weather should read them.

For the purposes of this thread, Nelson was an anthropologist who was paid by the Air Force to live with native Americans in the far north (one year each with the Inupiat and the Athabaskans) to learn their methods of living and working in the cold before the skills were lost to modern society. All for the purposes of bettering the AF survival knowledge.

I think he was a little hard on the Athabaskans in "Forest". After a year further north ("Ice") he had gained so much respect for the Inupiat (which I understand) he had gained their attitude toward the Athabaskans, which is not exactly one of reverence.

ILBob,

I would disagree, I think -20 begins to solve the cold problems (water is almost not a problem and clothing is easier to live with). IMHO it is easier to stay warm at that temp than the teens and twenty's above. The coldest I have ever been is twenty above in freezing rain. -40 is cold but manageable, -60 and below becomes somewhat difficult. Not too bad with no wind, gets bad quickly with a breeze (as described above by AKSAR). I was told by the meterologist at Plateau Station in the Antarctic (not there in the winter it was only -65 when I was there) that -120 is manageable if there is NO wind and absolutely unmanageable if there is. Wind is the overriding criteria in all the above.

Respectfully,

Jerry

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#266548 - 01/13/14 07:09 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
I would tend to agree that cold and wet is much worse than cold.

But we were not talking about +20F and rain. The chance of rain happening in below zero temperatures is very remote.
_________________________
Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

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#266549 - 01/13/14 07:19 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: JerryFountain]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: JerryFountain
.... Nelson was an anthropologist who was paid by the Air Force to live with native Americans in the far north (one year each with the Inupiat and the Athabaskans) to learn their methods of living and working in the cold before the skills were lost to modern society. All for the purposes of bettering the AF survival knowledge.

I think he was a little hard on the Athabaskans in "Forest". After a year further north ("Ice") he had gained so much respect for the Inupiat (which I understand) he had gained their attitude toward the Athabaskans, which is not exactly one of reverence.
Yes, perhaps he was a bit hard on Athabaskans in that book. However, in his later book "Make Prayers to the Raven" he became totally enamored with the Athabaskan view of the world. Nelson also has a radio series on our local NPR called "Encounters" which I really enjoy. I'm not sure how widely that show is heard outside of Alaska?
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#266555 - 01/14/14 12:27 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
In high wind, sub freezing, with ice and snow sandblasting or with rime forming, the neoprene face masks with goggles work (used with hoods and hats). Haven't tried them at -40 tho.

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#266556 - 01/14/14 01:55 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Colourful]
Roarmeister Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 09/12/01
Posts: 960
Loc: Saskatchewan, Canada
Originally Posted By: Colorama
Fleece with a wind protection membrane makes great balaklava or scarf. Goggles tend to fog up but to avoid condensation, I exhale blowing down.


+10 in agreement. I have a good balaclava CTR Mistral Balaclava but a scarf is great because you can adapt it to your face the way you want it, including creating a good breathing hole by the nose. I use wraparound sunglasses and for the most part they don't foul up.

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#266557 - 01/14/14 01:59 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
Good question and a lot of great answers. My two cents:

In Siberia, natives used to apply a generous amount of animal fat to their exposed skin (face) to proactively protect it from a frostbite.

Being kids we were preventing a frostbite by often and intensively massaging the skin on the face, ears, palms with wool (we usually wore wool mittens and scarves). If the skin feels numb, or looks whitish start massaging immediately until it burns and looks pink.

Also, while living in Siberia, we had our bodies proactively preparing for the winter, as it approaches each year, by making the skin noticeably warmer, compared to the summer season (in fact that's something about surface capillary system expansion). Even after 14 years of living in California I can still observe that effect on thermografic camera screens at the local Exploratorium exhibit (San Francisco).



It was a shock to see for the first time how grey faces of locals on those screens differs from ours - playing in all colors of warmth during our first visit there, which we made about this time of January in 2003. And that's not really genetic. Our son's face have the same grey color as of "native" Californians around the year (just checked for that recently in the past December). smile

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#266559 - 01/14/14 03:31 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Alex]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Don't forget a lot of men grow beards for a reason. I was in Alaska for a month in school (only time I grew a beard). After about 2 weeks there was a noticeable difference in how fast my face got cold, and I'm far from a furry-face guy (chest and legs, sure, but not the face for some reason).

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#266563 - 01/14/14 03:03 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: MDinana]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Cold weather is probably the reason we have the ability to grow beards in the first place....
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Geezer in Chief

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#266573 - 01/14/14 06:04 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: hikermor]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
As the frostbite is about body liquids circulation - anything what promotes it is helpful, and what restricts it is dangerous.

E.g. the shoes and clothing should not sit on you too tight. Most cold-inexperienced people overlooks that when using the too well known multilayer principle to quickly improve the clothing insulation. If you add too much thickness under your regular outer shell clothing or manage to fit your leg with 3 socks on into your regular footwear - you might severely restrict the free circulation of blood, thus welcoming a frostbite.

The body extremities are most vulnerable to a frostbite. But in most of the cases, all you need to prevent it is to promote the circulation periodically. Just move your legs and arms wide and fast when possible! It's even worth the effort to take off your shoes and socks (even when it's -20 outside but no wind) and massage them with your bare hands intensively.

However! If you have got an obviously visible frostbite already, don't try any massaging, as you can severely damage tissues further with ice crystals formed in the cells. It's better to "defrost" it first by getting affected foot/hand/nose as undisturbed as possible in contact with cold water, and then warm it up very slowly (add hot water a bit after a bit).

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#266587 - 01/14/14 09:18 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Alex]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Your point about watching out for constrictions on extremeties is excellent, but are you sure about the rewarming ptotocol you mention? i understand that rapid rewarming in a bath maintained (that is critical) between 99 and 102F. Advice on this therapy changes rather frequently, so I may be out of date myself...Any comments by those working with FB?

Iam not too concerned at the moment. We are looking at temps in the low 80s today. That means red flag warnings for fire danger. You just can't win
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Geezer in Chief

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#266589 - 01/15/14 12:08 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: hikermor]
Alex Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 1034
Loc: -
Similar spring temps here in NCal!

Surely, it would be great to hear the most recent advancements in emergency rewarming protocols from a SAR Pro, as I can't recall where I have read out about the benefits of a cold water (~50F) starting temps for that (I believe - somewhere here). But even from a basic physics: if you apply too high temp gradient to the tissue - it will start expanding immediately, but ice crystals will expand slower and less evenly, what might cause more damage to tissues on the cellular level. That's why current cryoanabiosys techniques require injection of special cryoprotectant into the blood system prior to freezing in order to avoid problems with fast unfreezing.

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#266590 - 01/15/14 12:31 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3842
Loc: USA
Rapid rewarming is contraindicated as treatment for hypothermia as well.

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#266591 - 01/15/14 12:43 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Alex]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
4 PM and 80 deg F here in SOCAL.

That said, it was 39 deg F when I walked the dog this AM. No beard or balaclava, but I do have an OR Peruvian hat which keeps my head and ears warm enough and a nice wool scarf that I don't need at a balmy 39. If it were colder I could easily add the scarf to hat and I'd be good to go much colder. I'm totally acclimated to SOCAL so a light layer of wool baselayer under fleece and otherwise typical outerwear is routine for the early morning walk.

All that said, I don't think frostbite is a issue here smile

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#266596 - 01/15/14 02:19 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
BruceZed Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 319
Loc: Canada
I really like a fur lined parka hoods when it’s cold and windy, I have retro fitted both my military parka and civilian one with fur on the hood. Its cost is not really very high, it’s just a piece of fur not an entire fur coat.



When it is really cold and windy it makes a real difference to be able to hide inside a good fur lined hood. What the fur does is slow down the wind as the air transfers. It effect it helps to create a small micros-climate in front of your face, so you are breathing slightly humidified, slightly warmed air into your lungs. Fur is also great for quickly warming frost nipped skin. As well a good fur lined hood limits overall exposed skin further reducing the chances of frost bit in extreme conditions.



A Good Fur Hat is also a great anti Frostbite Tool. This Picture is me an exercise a few weeks ago teaching Quinche Building and it was -36c plus winds gusting that morning to 30km (i.e. -53c with Wind Chill). You will notice that I had on my Fur Hat, Headover, and only pushed my Hood Back for the Picture. You may also notice the build-up of frost, which is inevitable when active in these conditions. One important point to remember is that often the clothing need to keep oneself warm and comfortable in extreme cold, just gets in the way in mild cold. Wearing it often leads to overheating or build-up of sweat. Dress for conditions, but I recommend the fur hood liner as part of your extreme cold weather clothing.
_________________________
Bruce Zawalsky
Chief Instructor
Boreal Wilderness Institute
boreal.net

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#266597 - 01/15/14 02:40 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Alex]
AKSAR Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/31/11
Posts: 1233
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Alex
However! If you have got an obviously visible frostbite already, don't try any massaging, as you can severely damage tissues further with ice crystals formed in the cells. It's better to "defrost" it first by getting affected foot/hand/nose as undisturbed as possible in contact with cold water, and then warm it up very slowly (add hot water a bit after a bit).
Originally Posted By: hikermor
Your point about watching out for constrictions on extremeties is excellent, but are you sure about the rewarming ptotocol you mention? i understand that rapid rewarming in a bath maintained (that is critical) between 99 and 102F. Advice on this therapy changes rather frequently, so I may be out of date myself...Any comments by those working with FB?

Alex & hikermor,

The current Alaska Cold Injuries Guidelines (2005) recommends rapid rewarming of frostbite as follows:
"If the decision is made to rewarm frostbitten tissue in the field, you should prepare a warm water bath in a container large enough to accommodate the frostbitten tissues without them touching the sides or bottom of the container. The temperature of the water bath should be 99° - 102 °F (37-39 °C)".

A revised version of the Cold Injury Guidelines is in preparation, and I have seen a draft copy. However the draft revised version still recommends rewarming in 99-102 F water (37-39C). Apparently, this has been found to be the optimum temperature that saves the maximum tissue. The late Dr William Mills of Anchorage is generally credited with pioneering the modern treatment of frostbite.
_________________________
"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."
-Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz

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#266614 - 01/15/14 03:53 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
Jolt Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/15/10
Posts: 90
Loc: Maine
Yes, that is correct. You want to use water that is slightly warmer than body temperature (never dry heat, this will damage the tissues further)...and be prepared for a significant amount of pain as the tissues thaw. I managed to get second-degree frostbite on my fingertips a couple of years ago during an exceptionally cold winter hike (combination of factors, including pre-existing Raynaud's syndrome, different liner gloves than usual b/c my wool ones had shrunk, a really cold day, a large, slow-moving group that made a lot of stops, and me not paying enough attention) and will say that rewarming those fingers was probably the most painful thing I have experienced in my life thus far. I was using a sink full of warm water at the little restaurant where we had stopped to eat after the hike, so the only medication I had available for pain was Tylenol...and it didn't do much! Then there was the 6+ week recovery, during which time it was quite uncomfortable to do much of anything requiring hands. Moral of the story: you don't want frostbite!!

ETA: Rewarming should only be done if you are CERTAIN the area will not refreeze; if it does, there will be much more severe damage than by waiting until you are truly out of the cold.


Edited by Jolt (01/15/14 03:55 PM)
_________________________
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#266615 - 01/15/14 04:02 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
Thanks for all the interesting and informative replies.

It looks like the fur-edged hood is almost universally recommended. I understand closing down the opening of the hood a bit to trap some warmer air, but I am still not sure I understand why it is fur instead of fleece or foam or just the physical shape and structure of the hood, if it's just a wind block. I understand fur as a superior insulating layer, though, but I usually think of that as a layer, rather than a barrier. I'll just trust the judgement of people who have more experience with this stuff.

I'm still trying to find a more portable solution in a hood or face mask for occasional use during severe cold snaps. I assume it is best to avoid openings around the eyes, nose, and mouth that expose patches of vulnerable skin. But the ones that cover the nose and mouth, encouraging moisture and ice accumulation- I picture them making the situation worse.

Instead of a scarf I use a big thick neck sock thing. It's long enough that I can pull it over my ears for an extra layer. Scarves always seem to require a lot of constant fiddling. Is there an advantage to a scarf?

Is there no way to protect from frostbite on the face without either using a hood or constantly dealing with soggy or frozen face masks? What do the Everest guys do, for instance?

Thanks for the interesting discussion?

David

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#266617 - 01/15/14 04:43 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2851
Loc: La-USA
Scarves will generally provide a barrier to the cold air and the neck but also prevent one from rubbing their neck skin raw from twisting ones neck against one 's jacket collar. The skin chaffing is the primary reason that WW I pilots wore silk scarves year round.
_________________________
QMC, USCG (Ret)
The best luck is what you make yourself!

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#266619 - 01/15/14 06:03 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
oxygen face mask with goggles and hood. See photos.
http://www.everestexpedition.co.uk/everest_south_col/down_suits_review.htm


Edited by clearwater (01/15/14 06:04 PM)

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#266620 - 01/15/14 06:13 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: clearwater]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
What do the guys who climb Everest without oxygen wear?

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#266634 - 01/17/14 01:07 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
JPickett Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/03/12
Posts: 264
Loc: Missouri
"What do the guys who climb Everest without oxygen wear?"
Halos?

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#266635 - 01/17/14 02:27 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: JPickett]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Referring to a statement in the wikipedia article on Ed_Viesturs :
Quote:
...In 2005, Viesturs became the first American, and 12th person overall, to summit all fourteen mountains over 8000 meters (collectively known as the eight-thousanders). He is the fifth climber to do it without supplemental oxygen.[10]...
and he's not wearing a halo wink

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#266636 - 01/17/14 03:29 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
JPickett Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/03/12
Posts: 264
Loc: Missouri
You surely don't mean he's holding a pitchfork! (Gasp)

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#266637 - 01/17/14 03:53 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
So the question stands: what do the guys who climb without supplemental O2 wear over their faces?
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#266639 - 01/17/14 05:42 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Alex]
Mark_F Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 714
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Alex

Being kids we were preventing a frostbite by often and intensively massaging the skin on the face, ears, palms with wool (we usually wore wool mittens and scarves). If the skin feels numb, or looks whitish start massaging immediately until it burns and looks pink.


I was a bit confused by this statement as I remembered DS’s BSA first aid info on frostbite that you should NOT massage frostbitten areas. I went back and re-read what is in DS's BSA handbook and in the BSA first aid merit badge pamphlet regarding frostbite. Here is the info I found:

Frostbite is a condition that occurs when skin is exposed to temperatures cold enough that ice crystals begin to form in the tissues. A frostbite victim might complain that the ears, nose, fingers, or feet feel painful and then numb, but sometimes the person will not notice any such sensation. Grayish-white patches on the skin – indicating that ice crystals have begun to form in the top layers of the skin – are signals of the first stage of frostbite, or frostnip. With continued exposure, frostnip worsens and the freezing extends to deeper layers of the skin and to the muscles. Frostbite can be very serious, as it can cut off blood flow to the affected area and lead to gangrene, or tissue death.

First Aid for Frostbite

If you suspect that frostbite extends below skin level, remove wet clothing and wrap the injured area in a dry blanket. Get the victim under the care of a physician as soon as possible. Do not massage the area or rub it with snow. Rewarm the area only if there is no chance of refreezing. Expose the affected area to warm (100 to 105 degrees) water until normal color returns and it feels warm, and bandage the area loosely (placing dry, sterile gauze between fingers and toes). To treat frostnip, move the victim into a tent or building, then warm the injured area. If an ear or cheek is frozen, remove a glove and warm the injury with the palm of your hand. Slip a frostnipped hand under your clothing and tuck it beneath an armpit. Treat frostnipped toes by putting the victim’s bare feet against the warm skin of your belly.

Here is the link to the PDF of the merit badge pamphlet: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bxgvwk8HKLlHT0ZRalhQcHV2UDQ/edit?pli=1
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#266640 - 01/17/14 06:23 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Russ]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
AFAIK, they wear just about what everyone else on Everest wears
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#266642 - 01/17/14 08:07 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: hikermor]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Yeah, the question re the facial attire of high altitude climbers came from two previous posts:
Originally Posted By: bigmbogo
... Is there no way to protect from frostbite on the face without either using a hood or constantly dealing with soggy or frozen face masks? What do the Everest guys do, for instance? ...

to which clearwater responded:
Originally Posted By: clearwater
oxygen face mask with goggles and hood. See photos.
http://www.everestexpedition.co.uk/everest_south_col/down_suits_review.htm


My question took that a tad further in that a very few serious climbers go into the very cold very thin air without oxygen and hence no need for an oxygen mask. Since everyone else on Everest is wearing oxygen, they must be wearing something else which may be very useful info for we mortals at lower elevations.

As I recall reading, there is a snorkel type arrangement used for breathing the cold air in Antarctica, something about allowing the air to warm up before you breath it. Just curious, me being in SOCAL I don't have this high on my requirements list.

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#266644 - 01/17/14 09:06 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Russ]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
My friends who have climbed in the Himalayas used reflective face masks or neck gaiters with goggles on lower elevation peaks where they didn't need oxygen. They commented that the daytime temps were actually pretty warm but high winds and sun were the hazards.

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#266652 - 01/18/14 05:17 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
wildman800 Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 2851
Loc: La-USA
Enjoyed the clip. Can't wait for Part II.
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#266681 - 01/19/14 04:40 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
Sorry I mentioned Everest; it just got everyone off on an unrelated tangent regarding altitude, oxygen, etc. I just mentioned it because it seemed like the most strenuous and extreme cold weather example.

I'm just trying to find a good and simple way to protect my face when it's very cold, like 0 F. Hopefully an alternative to breathing through something that is going to be continually wet and/or frozen.

David

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#266688 - 01/19/14 08:11 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Well, maybe something like this:

http://rzmask.com/home

There are several different versions of this from various manufacturers. There may still be some condensate in the mask, but greatly diminished from the usual balaclava or scarf.

Not sure how low temp it will work, but better than nothing.
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#266699 - 01/20/14 12:45 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Neoprene face mask for 0 works great.

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#266713 - 01/20/14 06:12 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: clearwater]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
Originally Posted By: clearwater
Neoprene face mask for 0 works great.


Agreed. In strong wind, add ski googles.

Neoprene will get wet on the inside from condensation. The parts that touch the skin will be wet. If the mask doesn't have a good fit it might move a bit, shifting back and forth. That isn't good: You'd have to (re)-heat the condensation, over and over again. Not comfortable. With a good fitting mask, the condensation water always has the same temperature as your skin. Not uncomfortable at all; five minutes and you don't notice it.

The "tunnel hood" approach also works really well, except if you have to face _*directly*_ against the wind. Fur or no fur is a matter of personal preference (especially if you bring a face mask).

The most troublesome part is condensation from your breathing, particular with glases. You quicly learn to hold your breath when adjusting your headgear.

I see a lot of people wrapping their faces in scarf and whatnot, but I've never really tried going down that road, so no comments on that. For me, it's the hood, then I add the face mask, then the googles.

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#266731 - 01/21/14 04:04 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: MostlyHarmless]
benjammin Offline
Rapscallion
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 4020
Loc: Anchorage AK
Quite a few folks up here seem to like Musk Ox for scarves and hats. Apparently works a lot better than wool.

I could never seem to get my wool or cashmere scarves to wear properly. I could get them set the way I wanted, but then they would slip and lose their effectiveness. Learning to wear a shemaugh properly made a big difference, but cotton is no good for really cold weather.

If you have a problem with neoprene, I've found that a layer of silk seems to help a lot with any trapped condensation. Maybe a combo like that would be preferable.
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#266738 - 01/21/14 06:03 AM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: benjammin]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
I was thinking that Polartech Powershield would be an excellent fabric for a facemask.

A quick online search and I found this. A little pricey though.

http://www.untraced.it/en/8000mask.html

http://www.bronzemoonoutdoors.co.uk/untraced-8000-ski-mask

http://www.polartec.com/shelter/polartec-power-shield/how-does-it-work.aspx




Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (01/21/14 06:03 AM)

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#266831 - 01/24/14 03:12 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Mark_F Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 714
Loc: Kentucky
IFLM, on the one hand that looks good, on the other it seems a bit claustrophobic (discovered in the last couple of days that I have claustrophobic issues with some cold weather garments, although at the moment that seems mostly related to taking off a polar fleece hooded top that is a bit tighter than it should be and causes me to panic when i get it part of the way off and over my head and it gets stuck)

the recent arctic cold weather blasts here in the eastern US (for the second time this month brrrrr) have brought some extreme cold we are not used to in this area. Having to spend some time in the outdoors with temps dipping down in the single digits and wind chills below zero have me looking at this thread a bit more closely. The gear I had that I THOUGHT could deal with temps like this proved ineffectual due to problems mentioned in the OP - damp face masks from condensation - and that others have mentioned - fogged up glasses. Still taking notes, still learning.
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#267091 - 02/03/14 02:33 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
bigmbogo Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 82
This is continuing to perplex me.

I went for a long hike last week in 10 deg F temperature with little wind. Not particularly hazardous frostbite weather, but a good opportunity to experiment. I experimented with arranging a neck gaiter and scarf in combination, and it did a good job protecting my face. But both ended up getting really damp, which I imagine would have been very unpleasant if I had remained outside for very long after my hike.

I like the fur-edged hood method, but the trouble is that they are attached to super-warm parkas. On my hike I wore just fleece with a really thick wool shirt over the top, which worked perfectly. In a parka I would have roasted.

I am going to Google around and see if I can find just a separate hood that I can wear with any type of jacket. I like that it would provide a warmer layer of air around my face while still allowing moist breath to flow freely out.

For whatever reason I don't like the idea of the plastic face masks. I guess I picture them not venting breath very well.

I may also buy some fleece and have my tailor experiment with constructing a balaclava/hood combo.

If I stumble upon anything brilliant I'll share it here.

Is the whole face in danger of frostbite? I always picture it more dangerous to the pointed edges with little blood circulation, like ears and nose. Can you get bit on chin, cheeks, eyelids, lips?

David

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#267094 - 02/03/14 03:17 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
JerryFountain Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 418
Loc: St. Petersburg, Florida
Originally Posted By: bigmbogo
This is continuing to perplex me.
****
I like the fur-edged hood method, but the trouble is that they are attached to super-warm parkas. On my hike I wore just fleece with a really thick wool shirt over the top, which worked perfectly. In a parka I would have roasted.

I am going to Google around and see if I can find just a separate hood that I can wear with any type of jacket. I like that it would provide a warmer layer of air around my face while still allowing moist breath to flow freely out.
*****

Is the whole face in danger of frostbite? I always picture it more dangerous to the pointed edges with little blood circulation, like ears and nose. Can you get bit on chin, cheeks, eyelids, lips?

David


David,

The last question first, YES!!!!! any or all of the face can get frostbite. The cheeks are particularly common.

A fur ruff on a light parka used to be common in the far north. If you are wearing appropriate clothing, even down to -20 or so running dogs off a packed trail, a heavy parka is way too hot. A canvas anorak (the one from Duluth Pack http://duluthpack.com/home-cabin/clothing-accessories/pathfinder-canvas-anorak.html is typical) is the traditional outer wear. In colder weather the duffel (wool) shirt (http://duluthpack.com/home-cabin/clothing-accessories/pathfinder-wool-blanket-shirt.html) or parka was worn under the shell. A heavy parka (fur, down or now synthetic) was carried for stops. Duluth used to sell the button on ruff as an extra. Don't know if they still do. Some have a ruff that toggles or buttons on so that one may be used for both parka's. It makes the parka easier to clean as well. I went modern on my parka and used velcro. It has both advantages and disadvantages (makes the tunnel stiff which is good most of the time) and makes it faster to change, but it is too stiff on the light parka when folded back. I quit using it on my light parka and went back to buttons.


I have found that a detachable hood is often not useful. The ones I have tried are usually too small and or too poorly attached (3 or 4 snaps) to carry a ruff. They also leak air through the attachment when the wind is blowing. The only one I still use is on a down sweater that is worn under a wind parka. The outer hood has the ruff and blocks the wind. It is just an addition to my watch cap or balaclava.


Respectfully,

Jerry

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#267096 - 02/03/14 03:47 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: JerryFountain]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
The problem with detachable hoods is that they detach - and then they go astray, led somewhere where they can't be found by the Dark Side, and always when you really, really need them.....
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#267101 - 02/03/14 04:34 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
Herman30 Offline
Addict

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 508
Loc: Finland
Originally Posted By: bigmbogo

I am going to Google around and see if I can find just a separate hood that I can wear with any type of jacket.


Perhaps this is solution to your problem?

Buff hoodie. http://www.buffwear.co.uk/buff-headwear/hoodie-buff

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#267105 - 02/03/14 05:43 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: Herman30]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Herman30


Perhaps this is solution to your problem?

Buff hoodie. http://www.buffwear.co.uk/buff-headwear/hoodie-buff


Nice find, Herman!
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#267106 - 02/03/14 05:46 PM Re: Frostbite protection? [Re: bigmbogo]
Mark_F Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/24/09
Posts: 714
Loc: Kentucky
Take a look at the national weather services chart here on temperature versus frostbite times including accounting for the wind chill factor. I'm also wondering how much the weather extremes you are accustomed to factors into this. According to the chart, 10 degrees F is in the 30 minute range for frostbite. 10 degrees F is pretty cold for my area, but I've noticed others live in areas where 10 degrees might be a warm winter day so surely what you are accustomed to plays a part in this. Also, a person’s personal sensitivity to weather extremes probably plays a part in this as well. I’ve noticed, as I’m getting older that I am becoming more sensitive to extremes of both hot and cold.

I saw an example of a separate hood with fur ruff like the one you mentioned in a catalog many years ago, someone may still make something like it, though I wonder how much of a tunnel you would get with it. Also, as others have mentioned, there is the unenviable task of keeping up with it. That said, I've been using a separate hood of sorts I bought from jcpenney many years ago with some success. They no longer make it apparently. It gives an option of using it as a hood, or you can pull it down and use it more like a half-face mask to cover the nose and mouth. Unfortunately there is the problem of condensation and moisture accumulation.

Hope you find something that works.
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#267141 - 02/05/14 03:06 AM Re: Frostbite protection? (Professor Popsicle ) [Re: bigmbogo]
EMPnotImplyNuclear Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 382
More pfds of interest
Arctic Health - Frostbite
1983 Arctic Survival Manual
SG-ED-28 Dressing for Cold SG-ED-28PDF-Dressing for Cold.pdf
SG-ED-23 Cold Can Kill: Hypothermia SG-ED-23PDF-Cold Can Kill_ Hypothermi.pdf
SG-ED-27 Cold Hurts: Frostbite, Frostnip, and Immersion Foot SG-ED-27PDF-Cold Hurts_ Frostbite, Fr.pdf
Frostbite - McKinley Health Center - University of Illinois
Extreme Cold: Guide to Promote Personal Health, Safety|Winter Weather
extreme-cold-guide.pdf
Frostbite: MedlinePlus
Preventing Frostbite and Hypothermia (National Safety Council) - PDF
Safety: Hypothermia coldwaterbrochure.pdf
US Marine Corps - MWTC Winter Survival Course Handbook
Professor Popsicle University of Manitoba - Kinesiology and Recreation Management - Research - Dr. Gordon Giesbrecht
Disaster Handbook D17-06.PDF During a Winter Storm or Extreme Cold: When You're Outside

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