Hi everyone, been busy last little while with my son being involved with Boy Scouts. Spent a year as the Cub Master of his pack (which sadly folded as no one else wanted to take over leadership of the pack) and am now an Assistant Scoutmaster with his new troop. Some recent cold weather camping with our outdated and under-rated sleeping bags has lead me back here to ask the wonderful and knowledgeable folks here at ETS about a decent cold weather sleeping bag that hopefully won't break the bank. Specifically, what we are looking for is one that will:

1) Roll up compactly and fit in the back pack without taking up half the pack space

2) Be rated to about 0 degrees Fahrenheit (about -18 celcius). We also have the fleece sleeping bag liners that are rated to 50 degrees Fahrenheit we will use in conjunction with this bag so I am ok if the combo of liner and bag together would get us to the 0 degree rating.

3) Be of the mummy type

4) Be available in longer lengths for someone over 6 feet tall

Our scoutmaster has a coleman 0 degree bag he recommends, but I'm not sure how compactly it rolls up (I do plan to ask him if he wouldn't mind bringing it to our next meeting). I've also heard good things about the snug pak brand but was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions? Thanks in advance for your help.

Swallow hard, spend the money, and get a decent,properly rated down bag, especially since you list compactness as an important criterion. It isn't easy, but you will be grateful for years into the future, when you spend warm, comfortable nights in the bag. With the liner, you can probably get a bag rated to 20F or so.

Prowl second hand stores - you can find good deals there if you shop carefully, or try REI or other major retailers, and see if you can get a discount.

What is the size of the bag you are using?

Remember,too, that sleeping warm and comfortably is more than just the bag. What kind of pad do you have beneath you? Are you eating a meal with complex carbos that will continue to heat you into the night? Is your campsite well sheltered? These are all critical factors.

You will get lots of opinions, and there are lots of bags out there. Offhand, I would look to the REI bags for quality and reasonable price. You will doubtless get other opinions.

Warm, compact, cheap - Pick two out of three.

Fleece is much less compactable than a down or synthetic sleeping bag so in my experience, for the same volume, a thicker sleeping bag is warmer than a sleeping bag / fleece liner combo.

It will be a bit bigger, but I think that for a new scout and inexperienced outdoors person a synthetic bag is safer. It will retain some warming capability when wet, and my scouts tend to get their stuff wet due to not paying attention to environmental factors and not thinking ahead. You can find some that pack fairly small and are fairly light, though not like a down bag. I also live in a wet climate, so it is more important for me.

Kelty, Eureka, and North Face have been making less expensive synthetic bags that are pretty good. I use military surplus Extended Cold Weather Sleeping Systems (ECWSS) for most of mine. You can get them for less than $100 here and it is very flexible. It does not pack small when you carry the complete system though. In North Carolina we rarely have to do that.

maybe a bit of lateral thinking: ridgerest mats are the warmest by a significant margin (the ones with the reflecive foil)and will add a lot of warmth. Since you can put it on the outside of the sac it uses no room. Army surplus bags are cheap and tough though bulky. BUT simply strap it to the top of the sac and again no room used!
qjs

Many trade offs to consider. Having done a fair amount of Scout camping trips with our Troop, (I was Scoutmaster for several years) I have to agree with the comment earlier about Scout bags being made from a synthetic fill, more for safety and practical reasons. For an adult, I've enjoyed my modern down fill bag. By modern, I mean something with a good water repellent shell, and treated down. I happen to have one from EMS (Eastern Mountain Sports), but there are many good ones out there. The exact model I have isn't made, but the current version is called a Mountain Light 0 degree long.
http://www.ems.com/product/index.jspproductId=12723076&cp=3677338.3705267

The great thing about this type of bag is the warmth, obviously, but it also will come with a compression sack that will cinch down to where it's not much bigger than the size of a Nalgene bottle! You will pay for a bag like this, but if you sleep well, and have a lighter pack, it'll pay dividends for many years.

I usually sleep on a Thermarest Prolite pad. It's very important to have a good pad under your bag.
http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/mattresses/fast-and-light/prolite-2012/product

More than anything, enjoy these years camping with your boy. As my dad told me when we were standing in the nursery at the hospital when my son was born...

"Find a way to enjoy a little something every day with that youngster, because before you know it, you'll be dropping off suitcases at a dorm room, and wondering where the time went."

He was right, just glad I had the chance to sit around a bunch of campfires with him before that happened!

Back in my day, you didn't "roll" sleeping bags (except for the inside-house sleepover ones), you "stuffed" them. Randomly crammed them into a stuff sack so as not to force internal insulation to shift like rolling can do.

And now-a-days you stuff them into compression stuffsacks. After it's in there, you crank down on the side straps to make the bundle much smaller. You have to remember to pull your bag out, shake it up, and let it loft for a while before you crawl in to sleep. A good pad underneath will make things warmer too. As will clean dry socks and a knit cap worn to bed. I have seen many scouts needlessly chilled at night because they didn't do the simple things like changing to dry socks and putting a hat on.

Following this line of thought, at least equal attention needs to be paid to what you are sleeping on as to what you are sleeping in.

I recently aquired a RidgeRest for winter camping and now us that in conjunction with a ThermaRest-style inflatable open-cell foam mattress (an older version of the MEC Reactor 3.8). Prior to getting the RidgeRest, I'd put an Emergency Blanket, shiny side up, underneath my mattress. In both cases, you get some of your heat reflecting back to you, the RideRest just boosts the overall R rating of your mattress system.

Speaking of systems, I also use an overbag to boost the warmth of my sleeping bag. I have a -7 C (~20F) down mummy bag, but for winter add a synthetic overbag (MEC Penguin Overbag) which adds 5 to 10 degrees C to the system getting me down to around -12 to -17 (~ 10 to 1 F). The other advantage of the overbag is that it protects the down inner bag from condensation.

The first time I used this complete system I was actually a little too warm and had to unzip the overbag a bit with the overnight temperature reaching somewhere around -9 C.

Edited to add:

Actually, taking the sleep system one step further, another thing that helps is a solid-sided tent for winter camping. I have winter camped in mesh sided tents but found a bit of wind can really cut through you (unless your sleeping bag / overbag is windproof). If your tent can keep the wind from you, you'll stay warmer through the night.

A sleeping bag suitable for -18C use will be bulky. You can get half the bulk of a synthetic bag if you select high specification down with 700 Fill power - 800 (very rare) and 900 fill power doesn't really exist. The down bag will weigh a minimum of 1.6 to 1.7 Kg mostly dependent on the size as some of the lighter bags will have a very tight fit i.e. for mountaineers who tend to be quite lean even compared to today's military personnel). Cost of the down bag will be between $400-600.

A synthetic bag will be quite bulky and will typically weigh between 2.8 to 3Kg. Synthetic bags, which will go down to such low temperatures are actually few and far between. There are some bags from Snugpak. Cost will be approx half that of a top end down bag.

This is essentially the sleep system I will use for cold weather. (comparison in size and weight to the US Modular Sleep System)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fES2kb29smw

I will also use an Snugpak Expanda Winter Panel for use with with the Snugpak Osprey 12, which allows more volume if a were to add a secondary down liner bag.

The Softie Reversible tops and bottoms and the Snugpak 12 Osprey and Expanda Panel weighs around 3.5 Kg. The Softie suit is also a good idea if you need to go for that middle of night call of nature.

http://www.snugpak.com/outdoor/expanda-panel-winter

You will also need a full 5 season, full length sleeping Pad. Expect it to weigh another 1+ Kg.

SgtFruitcake has tried to compare apples to oranges. He is comparing a what appears to be an excellent but,(as you point out) small single down bag rated for -5 or so with a full size double bag rated to -30. His silk liner and WATERPROOF overbag will not bring it down that much (5 or so at the most). He also appears to be recommending an overbag that will make his excellent down bag (or any other) a frozen lump in only a few days. Coated nylon vapor barriers are used by some (not me) as liners, but the half liter or so of sweat every night will soak the bag then in the day it will freeze up. NOT for me, thanks.

He also does not seem to know that the military bag shown is available on the internet at reasonable prices or from the original manufacturer (Wiggy's) new at any time. They also (as well as others) have synthetic bags rated (and good to) the lowest temps of any bag around. Selection is there. No relationship to Wiggy's except as a satisfied customer.

I agree with those who recommend a synthetic bag for scouts. I would dearly love to have my old Holubar down bag back (Alice Holubar was an artist with the sewing machine), but there are places where down is surpassed by synthetic and youngsters (like the scouts I work with) are one place. I think you will find that with careful selection you can find a synthetic that is only a little heavier and more bulky (15 - 20%, not twice) just don't try to compare ultralight gear with military surplus.

Respectfully,

Jerry

The coleman is a good scout bag, for when the Tenderfoot bedding down next to your son spills cocoa or walks across all the sleeping bags with muddy shoes to retrieve his toothbrush, or for when they pitch a tent in a hollow-soon to be bathtub. Just make sure his pack is large enough to hold it. Having bulky gear is just part of doing business as a scout. Use double sleeping pads in winter as mentioned.

The synth over bag, down bag, vbl is my fave for multi-day winter, but having that cheap coleman is still useful for car camps, river trips, as a loaner etc.

Anyone in the US ordered from MEC/Canada? What kind of customs cost was there?

" I have a -7 C (~20F) down mummy bag, but for winter add a synthetic overbag (MEC Penguin Overbag) which adds 5 to 10 degrees C to the system getting me down to around -12 to -17 (~ 10 to 1 F). The other advantage of the overbag is that it protects the down inner bag from condensation."

While I can't fault the logic of recommending a synthetic bag for this purpose, for my own son I bought a -12 down bag (~1.6 kg, 10.3 L packed ... it's 575 duck down) and he's used it succesfully thus far (though he's no longer in Scouts). My daughter has a -20 hybrid which is an interesting combination of down & synthetic fill (~2.2 kg, 15.4 L packed) ... its still really big for my likings but Mom insisted on a -20 bag (but I don't have a good compression sack for it either). Both options run a bit over $200 (the linked bags are updated versions so the numbers might be a bit off for what we actually have).

If you were in Canada, I'd recommend a MEC bag without hesitation; I think they are a great value.

Actually in the video SgtFruitcake was demonstrating a Snugpak Osprey 12 (weighs 2 Kg) and has a Comfort rating of -10C (EN13537 Specification) The Osprey is a top end Synthetic bag not a down bag. It is also issued to Royal Marine Commandos for Norwegian Arctic Operations. The bag will typically cost between £100-130.

A Snugpak Expanda winter panel will add another 0.6Kg.

The Snugpak Bivi bag cover is waterproof a Hydro Static Head in Excess of 5000mm (Goretex I think is rated to 10,000mmm). The Snugpak bivi bag cover is also breathable (will transmit upto 7.5 litres of moisture per m2 per 24 hours (Goretex being slightly better depending on the specific fabric). It is not a vapour barrier product. The Snugpak Bivi bag weighs around 400gm, i.e. less than half the weight of a military Goretex bag. I am not sure that is currently military issue though.

The silk liner a bivi cover will probably add another 5 degree Celsius. A Thermolite Reactor extreme liner would probably be even better than the silk liner.

The army issue reversible Softie tops and bottoms SgtFruitcake was wearing will easily add another 10-12 Degree Celsius to the sleep system. Cost is around £50 for the Softie suit.

http://www.strikeforcesupplies.co.uk/index.php?method=cat&id=79

Military Issue Sleep Bags such as the US Modular Sleep System are generally rated for lower temperatures than civilian specification bags (military personnel are expected to cope with colder temperatures) for similar technology and weight and are not included in the Civilian EN13537 specification. They are available in the UK.

http://www.strikeforcesupplies.co.uk/index.php?method=stock&id=3006&from=6

Even at £150, they do represent excellent value for money (especially considering the addition of a Goretex Bivi Bag) if you can handle the weight (4.4Kg) and the bulk. You will still need a full 5 season full length sleeping Pad to get the best out of the ECWSS as well.

Actually, I just realized this is incorrect. Prior to getting the RidgeRest, I used the emergency blanket (shiny side up) on the bottom; a closed-cell, 1 cm thick, blue foam; then the inflatable mattress. The intent of the RidgeRest was to combine those bottom 2 layers into one piece of gear (the RidgeRest is thicker than the blue foam so it does provide a bit more insulation too).

AFLM, Thanks for the corrections on the bag and cover. It does not change the issue though. He did not include the Softie set in his display of the size (and weight) of the lighter system. And he is still showing a -15 bag, -25 with the Softie, against a -40 bag (civ. rating) without adding the cover and without wearing the Softie. The two systems are not in the same catagory.

I would not recommend the Wiggys bag for backpacking, I use mine for canoeing and winter conditions although it is not bad for backpacking in mild conditions (just the overbag down to 0C and just the inner bag to -15C). It is also great for car camping or winter survival (snow machine, aircraft, etc.) because it it a stronger design than the lighter bags designed for backpacking and climbing.

Respectfully,

Jerry

http://olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_gear_sleeping_bag.php

The rating for the MSS is -35C for a soldier (difference is typically 5C lower than a civilian could expect for a comfort rating) wearing expedition rated polypro underwear. The polypro will add another 5-7C. Take away the Polypro and the MSS is rated for a soldier to -28 to -30C.

So for a comfort rating for a civilian I would expect the MSS be capable down to -25C.

The following could also be worn to take the Snugpak system down to a comfortable -30C

AFV crew Fire Retardant Base Layer Thermal polo neck - £13

Thermal AFV long johns - £8

http://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/shop/o...een-614784.html

I'm not sure how big the bags are we are using now, or even what their rating is, and would hate to guess on that but I will try to find out. I can tell you that one won't go in the pack, and is awkward strapped to the outside of the pack, the other will barely fit in the pack but takes up about half the space of an approximately 65L pack. I've seen others mention a compression sack, which I am not using yet, and wondering if this would help a great deal. I am also open to attaching the bag to the outside of the pack to save some room inside the pack. Perhaps i can figure out a way to lash it just above the sleep pad.

I'm certainly considering a down bag, at least for myself, as several people have already mentioned it, just gotta get DW to loosen the purse strings, which may be difficult given a few recent and unexpected household expenses/issues. I'll keep an eye out at any second hand shops, but in our area, there's not much to choose from with that.

Cost has been a major consideration in all this as I have had to update mine and my son's gear as we progress through scouting. Currently our sleeping pads are the blue, closed cell foam ones from wal-mart, which I will try to update as funds allow. Will also be doing the silver emergency blanket underneath the pad others have mentioned. When possible we also toss some extra blankets underneath the pad for extra padding and insulation but that requires a car camping campout. What we are working towards is not only the first tenderfoot requirement of presenting oneself to the scoutmaster properly dressed and packed for an overnight campout, but also a pack that we can simply grab and go for future campouts.

A good dinner earlier in the evening, followed up with a hot cup of noodle-rich soup right before bed. Campsites could have been better sheltered but we had to go where the campsites were located so not much choice there.

The fleece liners we have are thin (but warm and cozy, DS has been sleeping in his at night since the last campout we used them) and roll up to about the size of a football, so they can be tucked just about anywhere in or on the pack.

Something synthetic or used military surplus might be just the ticket for DS, I'll take a look at our local shop and see what I can find. We're a tad farther north here in Kentucky, so might need something with a slightly lower rating. DS has specifically asked for a 0 degree mummy type bag so I am kinda looking for that specifically.

looking at those ridge rest mats in another tab, those look pretty nice, and not as expensive as I thought they might be.

When you attach a sleeping bag to the outside of your pack, is it a good idea to put it in a compression sack first? I tried attaching one without it, and it was awkward and uncomfortable, and the sleeping bag kept sliding apart and coming unrolled. I am assuming a compression sack or some other stuff sack would solve this problem.

Blue foam pads are fine for young folks for summer insulation. Two for winter.

Bag examples

Higher end 0 F synth north face $169
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___58751?cm_vc=PDPZ1
4lbs 2 oz

Low end 0 F synth slumberjack $59
http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___47321
4lb 15 oz.

Cheap down 0 F Kelty $189
http://www.amazon.com/Kelty-Cosmic-Degree-Down-Sleeping/dp/B004O706O0
3lb 12 oz

I'm doing my best to enjoy it, and yes your dad was right, I am already wondering where the last 12 years have gone.

Both those look like great options, but a bit pricy for me right now (just had to drop almost 500 bucks for a new hot water heater). I'll keep drooling and dreaming.

Blog Post I made on using stuffsacks.

It shows first packing it in a tan stuffsack for attaching to outside of pack, but no pics on the frame.
We use two web straps with fastex buckles. The stuffsack has web loops on the side for the web straps to pass through so sack won't slide out.

The second batch shows a blue stuffsack for an internal frame pack with the bag inside.

In both cases the sleeping bags are down ones however they take up less than half the stuffsack and clothing and extra gear are included inside. In fact the foam pad, sleeping bag and clothing fit in the external frame stuffsack. So a synthetic bag should fit excluding some of the other stuff.

For outward bound courses, the students could fit a 20d synth bag, long underwear and socks, climbing harness and helmet in their stuffsacks and then put at the bottom of the internal frame packs.

http://blog.owareusa.com/2013/01/10/stuffsack-use/

AFLM,

From the Manufacturers Web Site (http://wiggys.com/category.cfm?Category=41) for the civilian sale of the two bags together, no Bivi (Wiggy's states that it does not increase the temp rating). It may be an improved version of the mil spec one, but I suspect that these might be overruns from a govt contract, even though some of the military is changing to a center zipper version:

********************************************
Super Light Camo - SALE
Product #: 6.11.1-camo

Temperature Rating:
0 Degrees F
FTRSS: -40 Degrees F

Style: Mummy
includes standard stuff sack.
NO pillow included

Sizes: Click on (More Info) for Details...

Colors: DIGITAL CAMO, MARPAT

Weight: 4 pounds (Regular-Regular Size)

ON SALE FOR $130.00

Free Shipping NOT Applicable with this item
*************************************************

This is the same bag, except for color, that I have and I can tell you that the temp rating on the bags independently (I have never had them in -40 yet so I don't know about the combo) are cozy for me. I sleep warm in most bags though.

Mark,

This sale might be a good possibility. It is only the liner/3 season bag, looks like they made too many for the govt. Sometimes you can get the pair (overbag rated to 35F and Superlite rated to 0F) new surplus or on ebay for only a little more. Gives you a summer bag, a fall/spring bag and a winter bag all in one.

Ebay has some used surplus ones for $27.95, Buy it Now from a well rated source. I don't know the vintage but they look like the ones from the web site AFLM quoted above. Might not be quite the same as the ones now at Wiggy's.

Respectfully,

Jerry

The tents are solid sided so no worries there

the closed cell pad combined with the self inflating air pad seems like it would be a good idea

I'm all for keeping warm, I do not like being cold, I am overly sensitive to cold, especially in my extremities, which could be why winter camping never really appealed to me

Absolutely, putting the bag in a compression sack will help reduce the volume as much as possible for putting it in a pack and should not only keep the bag together but provide a little bit of protection if you are strapping it outside your pack (I use something like this ... the product video shows how the compression works). As mentioned earlier, people don't typically roll sleeping bags anymore, they just stuff them into sacks.

I'll also second clearwater's comment ... go with 2 pads for winter even if they are both the blue foam pads.

awesome, thanks jerry, those look promising

awesome denis, thanks for the great info, will definitely have to invest in a stuff sack too.

one thing with having two foam pads, my pack just has straps for one pad at the bottom of the pack, the straps aren't long enough to roll two pads together so I'd either have to piggy-back it, or find somewhere else to attach it. any suggestions? Later, I may try to attach some pics of the setup we have so far and the (admittedly crappy but usable for now) packs we are using.

at any rate, if we can figure out how to attach 2 pads, we'll be closer to being set for winter camping, and as for spring/summer/fall camping a little extra padding to sleep on would be welcome as well

added: I should also note we are using internal frame packs that have straps and other attachment/lashing points on the outside of the pack

You will learn a lot with experiences to come in scouts.

Here is a link to lots of good stuff about lightweight backpacking with scouts.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/display_forum.html?forum=54

great link, loving it, thank you clearwater

Without seeing the specifics, my only thoughts are to ensure you roll the mats as tightly as possible and then to use cordage to rig up your own attachment method.

Wish had some extra time to post some pics, but DW had a blood clot removed from her leg after thanksgiving, so I am having to do a ton of housework to get ready for company coming in for christmas, and hoping i can make a quick batch of charcloth for some tinder kits I am making for all the scouts and adult leaders as christmas presents. As soon as I have time, I'll see what I can rig up and take some photos to post here.

A word of caution on the temperature ratings specified by US retailers.

Here is an example of the specification for a high spec synthetic Bag - Thermarest Centari™ bag.

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-a-rest/sleeping-bags/centari-0-sleeping-bag/product

The EN Comfort rating is -5 C / 23 F

Yet the Rating given by most retailers regard it as a -18 C / 0F bag.

If you are going to go out in dangerously cold temperatures please go by the EN Comfort rating to give yourself a safety margin and insure the insulation under your sleeping bag has a R rating of at least 4.5 when using a synthetic sleeping bag.

exactly AFLM

the whole idea behind a 0 degree F bag is to be comfortable in the most likely extreme of cold we will encounter. It is doubtful we will venture out in anything colder than the nights we encountered in our recent campouts, 20 to 25 degrees F at the worst, a 0 degree F bag should keep us cozy and comfy in those temps and provide a margin of error and a modicum of safety and comfort in case of any unforseen circumstances.

Besides, a 0 degree mummy bag is what DS asked for for scouting, and if his grades are good this 9 weeks I'd like to reward him with one.

Unless you are tough like the russian climbers who just flake out their rope for use as a mat.

It also depends quite a lot on what clothing you wear inside the bag. Ed Viesturs describes in one of books using a very light bag on Mt Everest. He wears his full body down climbing suit inside a light bag. He does anything he can to save a few grams of weight.

For those who don't follow climbing, Viesturs is the first American to climb all 14 of the 8000 meter peaks, and the fifth person to do so without using bottled oxygen. He has climbe Mt Everest seven times. He is one very hard dude who has spent a lot of time in extreme cold. Don't try this at home, kids.

IMHO - most people buy too much bag; if you are truly camping in 0º weather, then yes get that bag. But most people don't. If you camp at 40º, don't get a 20º bag "just in case."

There is a new system of temp ratings...and it includes comfort, discomfort and "survival" temps.

I tend to agree, I know I'd be way too uncomfortable in a -20 C bag in most conditions assuming I had a good mattress/mattress system. However, its also a personal thing, my kids seem to do just fine in bags rated much lower than the actual conditions.

Actually, as an interesting aside, I used to camp even in the summer with my -7 bag and a low-quality mattress (I didn't do any winter camping back then). When I finally got a good mattress (R value of around 3.5) I found I was routinely too warm. Ultimately I ended up getting a +5 summer bag that I now use unless the overnight temp is actually forecasted to drop below that. I've found the same with my winter set up, unless it is really going to drop below -10 or so the full-blown bag + overbag can get too warm. On the flip side, if the temp is going below what I am equipped for bag wise, extra (dry) layers can help fill the gap (in one case, even partially zipping my down jacket around my bag was helpful).

Well said.

Viesturs is also, IIRC, a veterinarian and a pretty devoted husband/dad who co-authors good books about climbing, and avoids the tendency to trash other climbers. Likeable sort, unlike many of the climber-authors.

Yes. Viesturs also has a commendable reputation for dropping his own plans and aiding other climbers in distress. From the Wikipedia article on Viesturs:

A down bag may not be the best idea if there is a dust mite allergy involved. Allergy specialist specifically told us to avoid foam or feather pillows when he tested me to see what I was allergic to. Don't know if there would be a big difference between a feather pillow & down.

Good points. Certainly you need to verify ratings on any bag. The EN rating is a good one, but, like the US ratings which are made using a different set of criteria, they can be misleading and add up to a mismatched bag. I find the US ratings a little high for me, the EN way too high. I usually need to go one step higher - using my usual setup. My Daughter-in-Law is a totally different story. She needs a bag warmer that the EN rating to stay comfortable. She uses a US rated 0F bag in 40F weather. At 35 she needs to add a dog (thankfully she has one that likes to sleep with her).


Respectfully,

Jerry

An article I found, Degrees of Comfort has a good summary of correction factors one can use to more closely figure out the temperature rating they should be looking for in a bag.

Interesting article. One other thing I noticed on the really cold night of camping was the air inside the tent also got really cold, so simply breathing in the cold air seemed to sap the heat right out of me. Added to that, every time I moved cold air seemed to rush inside the sleeping bag (or the air I had warmed with my body rushed out, either way, brrrr) made the night really miserable, even with 3 layers of clothing on. Dry synthetic long johns, fleece shirt and pants with wool socks and a hat on my head, and I eventually added insulated coveralls to get through that night (and yes, all were fresh and dry). How cold did it actually get? Hard to say for sure, i know it got below freezing as there was frost on the cars, tents, equipment, grass, and everything else that was outside the tents.

A few other things to note, the sleeping bag I used is a rather normal rectangular design, seemed well insulated tho it is an older bag we bought a while back so I suspect it's rating was less than adequate. DS and I slept on 4 layers of old comforters (2 blankets each, folded in half) with the sleeping pad on top of that, followed by a fleece blanket and then the sleeping bag (with two of those chemical handwarmers inside) on that, with the foot of the sleeping bag covered with a large contractors bag and all covered with more fleece blankets. DS seemed to tolerate it better than I did, and with temps expected to be close to the same for the next weekend's campout, I went and bought us some cots to sleep on, plus the fleece sleeping bag liners and the full size chemical hand and body warmers. I guess it was a combination of all of those and maybe the temps not getting nearly as cold, but that next campout, with the same sleeping bags and blankets we had at the previous one, was much more tolerable.

A good mummy bag would definitely solve that particular issue. When its cold out I find its best to cinch the hood up nice & tight, leaving only a breathing hole. This keeps most of that nice warm air inside the bag where we want it!

Something like this:

The perception of cold, like that of pain, is absolutely an individual one. What is comfortable to many, if not most people, may be unbearably uncomfortable to others. A large number of medical, genetic, and/or environmental conditions affect these things---too many to list or even try to identify.

The only solution is to try to gauge the individual's own susceptibility to the precautions and equipment in your planning.

As an example, I tend to wear a sweater and/or long sleeves when many around me are in short sleeves. . . .I am one of those who need those "warmer" sleeping bags.

Your illustration shows the warmest way to wear a mummy, but i am always twisting and turning and thus breathing into the bag, etc., and it gets to be quite a hassle. If it isn't bitterly cold,I like to cinch the bag around my neck and put on separate insulation around my head and neck. A balaclava works great for that. Then I can flop around all I want.

No one has mentiond that sleeping in a group makes a difference, such as being the middle person in a three person tent.Mild exercise will warm you up if things get really cold....

For me, the best sleeping bag is sleeping on my mattress at home. I am side sleeper and nothing has ever been comfortable. Add to that, I am claustrophobic. If anything gets the least bit twisted or constricting, I go absolutely ape! I usually run out of the tent in a cold sweat, partake of a good Modified Stationary Panic (thanks Patick F. McManus), and then sit by the fire until I calm down - 20-30 minutes. So, I have to sleep, how shall I say it, fairly close to birth conditions - only socks and underdrawers. In the end, I don't do the sleeping outside thing anymore.

As has been discussed here before, you need to pick the right bag for the conditions. I live in a fairly wet area, so I choose synthetic bags. We also do not generally get extremely cold. I also have fairly young scouts, so the durability and safety factor of the synthetic bag is a plus for me. If I lived in a dry climate I would prefer down bags. It is always a challenge to equip the scouts suitably without overloading them. I have a good 0 F down bag, and my own sons each have one as well. Cost is also a significant factor for many families, which also leads me to the military surplus synthetic bags. You have to find what is right for your situation, there is no one right answer for everyone everywhere.

in really cold camping, most use 2-3 bags...pile em on like blankets

Compact cold weather sleeping bag on budget

No such thing short of finding a down bag at a garage sale.

I am not a huge fan of down as old style down bags were famous for getting water logged with just a little bit of dampness. Newer ones tend to have a more water resistant outer fabric that tends to reduce the chance of it getting wet.

I think it is appropriate to use down bags but maybe not for younger campers who may still have issues with bed wetting. Once it gets wet, it will not dry while you are out on the trail.

Yep. A big fluffy bag will never be compact or cheap. A true cold weather bag 20º or 0º is a specialty item. You can keep an eye out for used, or just carry 2 (or 3) lighter bags.


** Reminds me of working in retail; The customer, often 1 or more a day, would ask for a a pack thats:

1. great for a weekend
2. also for an extended trips
3. and a trip to Europe
4. lightweight
5. cheap
6. In purple

That's the part I hate the most about "mummy style" bags. I would rather cover my head with a toque and/or balaclava than restrict my movements as I need to move around while sleeping.

Sleeping comfortably in mummy bags is definitely an acquired taste, but they can't be beat for a good warmth/weight ratio. I will often put on a cap and sleep with my head outside the bag when it isn't that cold

I can sleep in a mummy bag but it depends on the bag. I have one that's just too constricting/constraining to use, but another that's fine.

Call me quirky but I winter sleep best in an unzipped mummy turned over with the zipper on the bottom, mummy over my face. Muffles my snoring, well not a lot. Wool or fleece hat. I can move easily and sleep on either side, back or belly. Two pads below, usually a blue pad and a z-rest. With proper ground insulation you don't get nearly as much cold air seeping in the sides as you may think. On really cold nights or ice cave sleeping when it can get wet I put everything inside a light over bag that packs down to the size a pair of socks. Other hikers also swear by rectangular down comforters for the best night's sleep. Don't forget a light snack an hour before bed, you'll sleep just a bit warmer.

For Scouts we always emphasize sleeping in their driest clothes, too often teen age years can make them uncomfortable about changing clothes in front of other Scouts. Starting out wet just starts an uncomfortable cycle.

Down or synthetic, we usually leave that to older Scouts to advise the younger. 50 milers or Philmont will make everyone an authority. 80% down out here in our PNW troop, altho there are some nice synth bags for decent dough, ymmv. For young Scouts it seems a struggle to get anything into a right sized pack for their height-weight - too tiny to haul very much. The troop quartermaster maintains a few bags and a few packs donated by departed scouts for tenderfeet to try out and see what they like.