"So as I defined it, civilization would consist of three conditions, infrastructure, centralized government, and structured commerce. This goes beyond simple organization, and while some barbarians may have approached civilized society, none of them quite made it."

OK Benjammin ... here's your challenge for today. I'm going to pick two societies. you tell me if they were "civilizations". the first is the Mongol society under Genghis Khan. No need to explain that they grew numerous and powerful - dominating a large part of Asia and some of Europe. The second is the Comanche society of Native Americans in the early USA. At one time, due to superior horsemanship skills, the Comanches extended their influence across the southern Great Plains, all the way down into Mexico, and eastwards across large parts of Texas. In their heyday nobody could beat them - no-one could equal their speed and fighting methods on horses.

So my two examples are "breakout" societies who took a quantum leap in speed of transportation and competitive ability. they really didn't develop a lot of infrastructure themselves ... they just captured land and cities from other people. so do these societies qualify as civilizations??

Pete2