It just seems that we've only been at it for such a relatively short period of our history, and we never seem to get it right. They all fail sooner or later, and it seems we fall back to our old barbaric ways, more or less, every time.

I wonder if we will ever get past this need to try victimize one another. We seem to understand that it is counterproductive, but we do it anyways. I don't think we will ever be able to get past this until we develop telepathy or empathy or some such, and can feel the pain we inflict on others as if it we were doing it to ourselves. Though in some cases, I doubt that will even be an effective deterrent.

Unfortunate.

I think civilization is natural for humans, but so are the barbaric ways. For the most part I think when viewed from a distance humans are getting "better" but obviously we're not nearly where I'd like us to be yet. We will probably never get there but I expect we will keep striving to be more than we are now.

its in our nature...

there is something inherent in our nature to form ourselves into groups, tribes, gangs. Once we do this, the "other groups" become the enemy, and competition begins. When a particular group wins and dominates the others, it starts a nation. that goes on until another nation dominates instead.

i agree. it really does seem very hard for us to get past this basic wiring in our heads.

Pete2

Competing is in our nature. Even born losers compete at some level. Operating within a team is a more efficient way to win. A nation is a massive team.

All animals that form societies have outcasts. Also, I think it's inherent in animals that form large, very organized, and cooperative societies to go to war. IIRC, ants also have been know to wage war. Technology just allows us to do it on a larger scale.

and i wonder if, in the not so distant future, man will have been nothing more than a failed biology experiment, similar to the dinosaurs. except we will cause our own extinction.

Humans are communicable disease of planets.

Society is artificial to a point. Look at the ever changing rules on what is and isn't "correct". Laws are all basically artificial. If there is a true natural law, it doesn't need to be enumerated, we would know it instinctively. If you look hard enough, there are no natural taboos; in some society everything "bad, evil, Bozo no-no" has been practiced. I stand firm on this, if someone wants to try and find some "natural law/taboo" that's never been broken, have at it. Hints, don't try to argue that any type of murder, cannibalism or incest are naturally taboo, you lose on the point that all have been practiced by past cultures some ritually and religiously.

The larger the group/society, the more rules you have. Never underestimate the power of stupid in large groups. Therefor, the need for rules. It gets interesting when rules change from group to group (e.g. driving laws, England v. the US), reinforcing the idea of artificial rules. Who is right? Does that make the other wrong?

As to competition, the Naked Survivors people prove that the smallest of groups - 2 - has competition to be top dog.

To me, this video contains everything you ever need to know about civilization:

Rhett & Link's Redneck Camping Guide