PRESUMEDLOST completed testing of various water containers and iodine tablets. He asked me to post it for anyone who may be interested.<br>============================================<br>Results of the Great Water Container Test:<br><br>The object was to determine whether any of the water bags under<br>consideration for "mini" kits were affected adversely by iodine-based<br>water purification tablets.<br><br>Test was conducted on the following:<br><br>Glad (brand) zipper storage, "Double Lock" seal, 1 qt size, 7" x 8"<br><br>Ziploc (brand) freezer bag, 1 qt size, 7" x 8"<br><br>Trojan (brand) latex condom, non-lubricated (now rolled into a circle<br>instead of a narrow oval, and not nearly as small a package as I<br>remembered)<br><br>Reynolds (brand) oven bag, small (formerly regular) size, 10" x 16"<br>(turns out that I drastically underestimated the capacity of these-<br>even leaving plenty of room to twist the top, the "small" size hold 3<br>liters easily).<br><br>Blue Bird (brand) round toy rubber balloon from the National Latex<br>Company, Ashland, Ohio<br><br>Kordon (brand) "Breathing Bag", for shipping of live fish (courtesy<br>Mr. William Vannerson, supplied in 3 different sizes).<br><br>Procedure:<br><br>Testing was done using Potable Aqua (brand) water purification<br>tablets, tap water ("city water", chlorinated, fluoridated and who<br>knows what else), an empty 1 liter Evian bottle for measurement, and a<br>fiberglass wash tub.<br><br>Initial expectations were that it was probable that there would be no<br>failures in the test period. Nevertheless, it clearly had the<br>potential to become a comparison test, so it was thought appropriate<br>to make some attempt at a uniformity of iodine concentration. The<br>smallest apparent container was the balloon, but it seemed likely to<br>hold a liter, so it was decided to use one liter in each of the<br>containers. To encourage confidence in the results from a limited<br>test period, 4 Potable Aqua tablets were used in each container, twice<br>the recommended concentration (though I think I remember that they<br>used to recommend 4 tablets per quart for "cloudy" water, I couldn't<br>find that on the current label- maybe that was the military version).<br><br>After examination, the largest size of the Kordon "Breathing Bag" was<br>chosen for testing. All the sizes supplied seemed to be made from the<br>same thickness of material, the smallest size looked to be too small<br>to hold a liter, and the middle size supplied looked too useful to<br>waste...<br><br>Filling the various bags with a measured liter from the bottle was not<br>a problem. The condom and the balloon, however, presented some<br>problems.<br><br>The condom distended and filled much more easily from just the weight<br>of the water than I had supposed. Having tried it from the tap, I<br>anticipated no problem filling it from a bottle (for measurement), and<br>there was none- once the neck of the condom was stretched to admit<br>outside air as well as the neck of the bottle. I admit I wasted 4<br>tablets and one condom doing this, but I have to admit that I think it<br>would be easier to fill from a trickle in the wild than I had<br>envisioned.<br><br>The balloon was much more of a problem. It could be filled from the<br>tap, but stubbornly resisted being filled from the bottle no matter<br>what I tried. In the end, since the balloon was assuming a shape<br>identical to the already-filled condom, it was filled from the tap and<br>the size was just matched by eye. I anticipate that it would be<br>difficult to fill one of these without a tap in field conditions.<br><br>All of the containers not having a built-in zipper-type seal were<br>simply twisted and tied.<br>Testing began November 2, 2001. It was deliberatly decided that no<br>attempt would be made to agitate the water to aid in the dissolution<br>of the iodine tablets, other than an occasional palpitation to<br>ascertain the continued strength of the bags- so that if there were<br>sensitivity of the material to the tablets, the test would approximate<br>a worst-case scenario, the tablets effectively just sitting on the<br>bottom until dissolved by time.<br><br>November 15, 2001 (two weeks).<br>There have been no failures, and no discernable weakening of any of<br>the containers. The two "zipper" style bags, "Ziploc" and "Glad"<br>brands, have both lost appreciable amounts of water, either through<br>insensible leaking or evaporation, but both retain more than half the<br>original water, and they seem sound enough- no visible leaks, no<br>brittleness or weakness. None of the other containers have apparently<br>lost any water at all, so the best current guess is that the "zippers"<br>don't seal as effectively as one might hope, at least over a period of<br>weeks. All the containers were examined, none leak visibly, and there<br>is no apparent weakening of the material even in those places where<br>brown stains remain from the iodine tablets.<br><br>It was originally intended to run the test for a month, and perhaps it<br>will go on, but no further change is really expected. for one thing,<br>the water in each of the containers has unexpectedly lost it's initial<br>reddish brown tint and returned to being colorless.<br><br>Tentative conclusion: At twice the "normal" concentration of iodine,<br>over two weeks, none of the containers exhibits any deterioration or<br>leakage. Whatever the reason for the Teflon-lined caps on the iodine<br>tablet containers, it would seem that any of these proposed water<br>containers should be at least resistant enough for it not to be a<br>realistic issue.<br><br>A secondary test was done comparing the rupture strength of a Reynolds<br>Oven Bag to a Kordon "fish" bag. In informal testing, comparison<br>proved to be very difficult.. the Kordon bag deformed (permanently)<br>with comparatively little force, but proved to be very elastic indeed<br>before rupturing. The Oven bag resisted deformation more, but on the<br>other hand the material punctured before stretching nearly as far. In<br>the end, it could only be said that they are probably roughly<br>comparable in overall strength, though very different in<br>characteristics.

You guys are great! While other sites worry about magnetic shift and expediant field silencers for poaching WE lead the pack in cutting edge research and field trials! Homer Simpson- "We're #1, We're #1! Now Bill, where can I ge those fish bags? Im to embarressed to buy condoms LOL

Excellent! Kudos to PRESUMEDLOST and thanks for posting that.<br><br>Regarding the Teflon seals for the caps. The concentration of iodine of a few tablets diluted in a liter of water is far less than 25 or 50 tablets in a small vial acting upon a small area of material. There are not many common substances that are impervious to Iodine. Glass is one, Teflon is another. Many rubbers are apparently not. I cannot say some other seal material might not work, but for sure Teflon will work. I've seen the results of a leaking seal in a small kit (as in BTDT). It isn't pretty, the Iodine corrodes virtually everything. I'll stick with what I know works until something else is proven effective over the long term.

Unfortunately, Kordon doesn't sell the bags for retail sales, only commercially (i.e., tropical fish importers orcommercial aquaculture). I wrote them and they were generous to send me a few samples, which I shared with PRESUMEDLOST.<br><br>I will try to see if I can locate a source for us. I'll send a copy of the results to Kordon, which I was going to do anyway, and ask if thy know where folks can get them (other than case lots). I also have a few friends that keep tropical fish that have sources in the tropical fish industry. I'll see if any of them might be interested in filling some requests. BTW, these folks are not in the business and would be filling requests from their home. Most of them would rather exchange fish than cash, so if you have any spare Killifish around... <S>. (see www.aka.org for info on killifish if you're curious).

As a follow up, I asked which container he would use as a result of his testing. Here's his reply.<br>===========================================<br>I like the Kordon bags and the oven bags- not sure which I like<br>better, I need to play with packing the Kordon bags more.<br>Availability of the "small" oven bags may be an issue, but I bought three boxes.<br><br>The rest pretty much eliminate themselves, I think. I don't trust the zippers of the zip-lock style bags for water- not only do they seem to slowly leak, but I can't imagine resting easy with one in a day pack, for instance. Nor do I like the idea of folding the zippers to get them in a kit- though you could run it around the inside edge of a tin to avoid kinking it, I just don't think it's worth it. <br><br>The balloon just seems impossible to fill without a tap. The condom FEELS very fragile when full, and is very difficult to carry- you can't pick it up by the neck, you must cradle it. It works, sort of, but it's a pain, and not much if any smaller than the others when packed. I also don't anticipate that you'd be able to easily untie it.<br><br>So, it'll probably be oven bags for most of the pocket kits, and I've been carrying one in my wallet for some weeks now without noticing. For the smallest (Altoids size), I might go with the Kordon bag, as the material seems thinner. For anything larger, a vehicle or pack kit, I'd definitely go with the Platypus bottles. I like them better than the military water bags. They're really tough, they don't leak, they fold pretty flat, they stand up when full, and they weigh very little. <br><br>Good stuff.<br>

The test continues. He's a follow-up for current results<br>============================================<br>However- there is some news! Yesterday, Sunday the November 18th and 17 days into the test, the condom ruptured spontaneously. Not sure this is at all significant, with a "double dose" of iodine and over two weeks, but it's another data point. <br><br>Interestingly, the balloon and the condom are the only two containers that retained brown spots from the iodine tablets- they've vanished in all the other containers. If the balloon and the condom are similar formulations of latex, I would expect the balloon to fail eventually- but it's much thicker than the condom, so it could be a long time. Also interestingly, the<br>balloon has developed a noticeable rough spot on the outside surface corresponding with the "down side" the part that was against the (constantly damp) laundry tub, that doesn't match the brown spots well in size, shape or position- so there may be another variable here. Perhaps latex just doesn't like repeated wetting over time? All of the other containers are still intact, but the two zipper-lock bags are still losing water.<br><br>===========================================<br>FWIW, I know the Kordon bags are specifically engineered to be oxygen permeable. This may account for the lack of "brown spot" as I would presume that the tablets may have ibcreased chemical reaction on the bottom. I would also surmise thatthe practical effect of this observation is minial as most folks in a survivial situation are not going to let the water sit in the container for two weeks straight. They're going to be drinking it up! :-)

Thanks to Bill and Presumed for the tests and results!<br><br>>>most folks in a survivial situation are not going to let the water sit in the container for two weeks straight. They're going to be drinking it up! :-) <<<br><br>That's true. I still find the long-term test very interesting. If I were in a situation where I was refilling the containers repeatedly over the course of many days or weeks (and treating the water each time), that could result in a long-term exposure of the container to the iodine. Great information.

I think the oven bag gets my vote for the following reasons:<br><br>1. stronger than a condom<br>2. better to seal (with a rubber band) than a zip lock<br>3. easier to fill than a condom in still water<br>4. can use it for transpiration (can't do that with a condom)<br>5. can split it down to make a mini still (every drop counts!!!)<br>6. repairable with tape<br>7. less likely to lose all your water if it splits (unlike a condom)<br><br>The only disadvantage seems to be size but then seeing as water is such a huge survival component, and the fact that i'll be ditching the condom, I'll make the room in my psk.<br><br>Any thoughts??<br><br>Cheers<br><br>Nik T.