There is certainly something going on with the weather, I can remember years ago when we actually got snow in the winter and sunshine in the summer. Now it seems that it goes from a really hard rain a couple days to really hot sunshine the next couple days with no in between all year round. My garden gets washed away and sunburnt in the same week and then in the spring time I find things that have managed to grow during the winter. Problem is I don't know if its a normal cycle or something we have done. People bash SUV''s but the air coming out of thier tailpipe is cleaner than the air going in and we waste resources building tiny cars that don't last more than a couple years. The US government makes industry add on all kind of pollution controls and recycle their waste so US industry just moves to China where they can pollute without care and dump waste anywhere they please and we loose American jobs in the process so which way is right?

"Which way is right?"
Ultimatly we all lose. The trouble is no-one can acuratley predict what the effects will be.
I read an article which predicted two outcomes for the Scottish climate in the next 50 years.
1 - The temperate rises - we lose some land, and a large perportion of indigenous wildlife. On the plus side we could now have the climate for grapes and vineyards - a good 500 miles north of the most northly vineyards in Britain today.

2 - The Gulf stream shifts southward (its getting a bit erratic now) and most of Nortern Europe is plunged in to a new ice age. Plus side - none.

As for the Chinese, if they are willing to let others pollute there own backyard in the name of prosperty - so be it. As for the ethics of the businesses that choose to do that - Shame on them . Its sad reflection on our culture that we allow the persuit of money to override all other considerations.
We will all have to lie in the bed we make for ourselves.

Yes, No Matter What Warming may be Going On, No Matter What we May andor May Not be Adversely Doing to Affect Global (and Local) Climate!, -An Ice Age Also!, Will someday Naturally Come!

Unless to Some or All of an Extent, Global Warming may Cancel that Out. If our Global Warming Trends still be Around, when such a Renewed Ice Age Time eventually Comes Around.

These Global Warming Trends that may now Well be Going On, -Can either be Naturally Caused, Man Caused, or Some Combination of Both.

Not Until we Get to the Root Cause(s) of *Natural* Ice Age Swings, and then in Some Distant Day be actually Able to Correctively Do Something About It!, -Not Until Those Days!, -Will we be Able to Escape and Avert Ice Age Dangers!

May Global Warming Cancel such Future Tendancies Out. May Earth Not Get Too Warm or Hot in the Meantime. May we be Able to Solve and Avert New Ice Age Tendancies in Time, -Before Earth's Temperature Pendulum starts Swinging Downward once again!

Fortunately, We May have More Time on our Side regarding that Last One. But Current Warming Tendancies can be a Far Closer Shave!

The Root, Natural Causes of our Natural Ice Ages, -are at Least Largely, perhaps even Totally, -Astronomically Caused.

Due to Several Small Wobbles or Other Long Term Irreagularities in our Orbit Around the Sun / And our Rotation and Axial Tilt. There are Three, perhaps Four, such Main Motions. Ballpark Estimates on my Part, for these Main Three Irreagularities, -are of Some 25,000 Years, 41,000 Years, and 100,000 Years!

I'm Foggy on the Details, but they are Well Known, Commonly Accepted, and Readily Available in Many Public Sources. As are the Specific Astronomical Irreagularities that these Figures Comport to.

In Short, These Change our Earth's Axial Orientation to the Sun, as well as our Distance from that Warmth Providing Sun!

Then Hemispherical, Meteorological, Ice and Cloud Cover Reflectivity, and Other Earth Science Factors then Come into Play! Sending us even More Down a Slippery Ice Age Slope!

Much of Earth then typically Stays Locked Into Such!, for 8,000, 10,000, or 15,000 Years, -Until various Natural Conditions at Last begin Swinging our Climate Pendulum Back the Other, Warmer Way! We then might Get the Better Part of a 10,000 Year, Warmer Cycle. Of Which we are in Now. -The *Later* Stages of such a One Now!

But Anymore on our Earth, -Ice Ages seem to be More Commonplace!

Earth was Considerably Warmer, -Back in Dinosaur Days, for example. Something was Different in our Earth-Sun Interaction!, Back in Those Times.

The Important Thing of course, -Is What Do we Do About It Now and Into the Future?!

We may Simply Have to Someday Physically Adjust!, -our Axial and Orbital Elements, -Into a More Favorable, NON Ice Age Conducive!, -Arrangement.

This is certainly Beyond our Means and Capability Now!, -and For a While to Come! I am Not Talking About Doing so Now, or Anytime Forseeable or Soon.

But Someday Before a New Ice Age Need Arises!, When our Space Effort and Other Technological Advances Permits!, -When it is Economically and Otherwise Far More Feasable to Do so!, -We Have Got to Get Out There!, -and Tweak Earth's Orbital Elements a Bit!

Unless we Don't Mind Freezing Thru *Another* 10,000 Year Long Ice Age!!!!!

This will be the First Time, in All Mankind's Long History, -That we're Actually Able to Do Something, -To Avert Another Oncoming Ice Age! Let's Not Be Late at the Plate!

If there also be some Other Contributing Causes to Natural Ice Age Cycles besides only the Astronomical,-Then Lets Come to Discover and Look Into Those Too! And See What we Can Perhaps then Do, About Those as well.

Whatever's Rather Likely Going On with Earth and it's Climate Right Now!, -Lets *Not* Forget!, -that we *Still* Have the Old Ice Age Bugaboo to Deal With!

We're Gonna Someday Have to Concretely Do Something About It! Unless we Want to Again Hunker Down!, for a Long Earth / Neanderthalish Winter!!!

If we've the Foresight and Preparation to Do it!, and In Time!, -This Will Occur in one of our More Distant, Upcoming Tomorrows! Not on the Immeadiate Horizons of Today!

But we Don't Have Time so Comfortably on our Side!, -Relative to Any Current Global Warming as May be Going On!

While Duly Taking Economic and Societal Considerations into our Assesments on How to Deal With it, -We've Got to Also Do What Must be Done! Towards Countering and Neutralizing Warming Tendancies. To the Extent that we actually Can. To the Extent we've had a Hand, in Bringing About the Original Problem.

We Now Sit Around Earth's Campfire!, in the Cold Winter of its Surrounding Space! Someone's Wisely Saying "Whoa!, -Wait a Minute! -Quit Throwing Logs On our Fire! You're Making Our Fire here a Little Too Hot!"

But at One and the Same Time as you Wisely Slow the Pace of that Firefeed, -There's Still the Frigid Winter Spaces!, Surrounding and All Around! *-Don't* Overcorrect Too Much the Other Way! Or we May Face a Weak and Dying Fire!, -Precisely When we Need some Heat!

Lets Take Care of Earth's Warming now!, to Every Extent that we Shud!

But Lets also Remember at the Very Same Time!, -That we may be Faceing a Definite Cooling Period!, -Down the Road!

Of Renewed Ice Ages!

Until or Unless we At Last Fix our Orbit a Bit!, -They Will Always be With Us!!!

Lets Strive to Strike that, -Neither Too Hot Nor Too Cold, of a Balance! An Earth Climatic Balance!

This is Going to be a Matter of Both Earth's, and Mankind's Survival! Beginning with Global Warming Trends, which are Already Beginning to Significantly Bear on our Survival! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]joblot[/email]

Well my problem with the Chinese polluting their own backyard is that eventually that pollution will make its way back to us by wind and sea so yes we will all lose, its just that in the meantime we will put every American worker out of work in the process. I think we need to relax our pollution standards a bit and concentrate on other areas. For example I can't even recycle aluminum cans because in my big city because they don't have a pickup for them except for some of the outer neighbor hoods. There is also no way I would ever think of riding a bike to work, too many people thinking they are doin the world a favor driving little cars and "zoom zooming" in and our of differnet lanes cutting in front of and each other and we have almost no bike lanes anywhere. I think if we need to invest some of our EPA $'s in things like this.

Eugene:

Since you are under the impression that the air coming out of your SUV's tailpipe is cleaner than the air going in, I would imagine you have a flexible hose attached to your exhaust and blowing into the passenger compartment.

Trees and plants will do a heck of a lot more for me during my lifetime than any exhaust from any vehicle.

Yes, I am a tree hugger and proud of it.

Bountyhunter

[FULL RANT ON]

Oh-Nooooo! Mr Bill! Danger will Robinson Danger! Danger! Chicken Little get out your umbrella! Looky There! see that big chunk of the sky sitting on the lawn over there! The Sky is falling! The magnetic poles are swerving all around! The solar cycle is reaching it's 50,000 Year maximum! The sunspot activity is increasing and the plasma impinging on our Ozone layer has risin dramatically causing untold disaster to that nice protective layer! Several million years ago these giant reptiles stripped all the vegetation off the planet and then were obliterated by a big rock that god or some other force threw at the earth! And it's all our fault. Shame on us humans. We did it! We hunted those poor dinosaurs to death after they were put on the defensive! We are causing the poles to wobble and disentigrate by mining all that magnetic iron ore and driving it all over the place! We are cuasing the sunspot activity by lofting all that extra mettal up into orbit and deploying those nasty solar collecting wings! It's all us. We aren't the puny insignificant slime covering this particular rock - oh no - We are all powerfull HUMANS and we should be ashamed of the damage we have wrought! It's all our fault and now the sky is falling and we're all doomed! Run for the hills! stop driving your SUV and walk! Go Vegan so the poor animals will not have to be killed!



BAH! Phooey!

[FULL RANT OFF]

BTW, what has any of this got to do with the charter of this forum? Specifically the issue of being equipped to survive the 72 hours required for rescue from natural or man-made disasters that are normal course of events in daily life for humans adventuring upon the face of this rock?


p.s. If this offends the administrator / owner please let me know and I will accept your censorship

Yes i know that saying is pobably not quite true (depends on if you count carbon minoxide as polution or natural) and i don't have an SUV, I have a truck <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But my point is everyone wants to point the finger at everyone else when its just as much their fault as well. But MiniMe is correct this whole thread is OT, should have been in the campfire at least.

i just pointed the story out because of the rare event i wasn't aware it was going to upset the balance of the forum

Yes - your right minime, it has nothing much to do with the charter of ths forum, and really belongs in the campfire, but I can also think of quite few other posts that also fit that bill.
No need to rant, why not make your veiws plain to those who control this forum.
Posts which refer to Guns, umbrella's, beef in cans, I feel have no real relevance to me or 72 hour survival.
If you don't like the topic, don't get involved - it will die out eventually.
Keep taking the chill-pills.
Regards
Martin

I would at least Partially Differ, in that Guns, Beef or Other Foods in a Can, and even Umbrellas in the Proper Sense, -Can Be and Often Are!, -Very Relevant to Survival! Our Earth Turning Sour on Us!, and Survival Considerations Thereof!, -Are also Very Co-Relevant! Still, in a Larger Sense I can Still See How a Lot of this would be More Suitable to the Campfire. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [color:"black"] [/color] [email]joblot[/email]