A friend of mine was in the class discribed in the story and you might find the details interesting. It happened in Washington state and it rained and was foggy all week long, the worst possible fire making conditions, but they weren't there to learn bow drill. Bow drill is a standard class skill and he expects you to know it for advanced class so he can spend time on new skills. If the student wants a fire their expected to make it on their own , but in this situation they really didn't need a fire. And at the end of the week Tom showed them were to get perfect materials and they started fires ,no problem. In fact they had walked by the perfect materials at least a hundred times.If they had had took to heart what TB had said about skills, nature providing and awareness they would have had fire the first day. Instead they thought fire was impossible under those conditions and didn't push past their percieved limitations. I personlly think their are several priceless lessons in what he taught them and TB only spent mabe 20 minites of class on it and the class was only out a little discomfort. By the way I agree with you if I paid to learn bow drill and didn't get it I'd want my money back too, but that wasn't the case in this situation, infact the students still talk fondly about their experience although they grumbled like #$%& at the time.

Thankyou tracker for the clarification. One of the pitfalls of a discipline ( such as wilderness survival) is gaining access to all the particulars of recorded events. I have been disappointed many times ( not just survival training) shelling out my time and money ( both rather dear these days) to learn a skill. Sitting through a seminar and hearing about A. religon B. why I am the best instructor, and why instructor X is a fake or C. Ill get to you after I spend another 20 minutes with this pretty student becomes rather demoralizing. Perhaps in the future we may have measured and impartial reviews of instructors and schools by actual students. I am tentatively attending the next desert trek with Peter Bigfoot at Reevis Mountain School .

I agree Chris, and while I think an evaluation of instructors would be great its a mine field, theirs as much ego and politics as the martial arts field. The only good luck I've had is talking to someone more skilled than me and finding out what they thought of the different schools they had attended. Its also a little personality dependent, some people due better with some instructors than others. By the way I'm in the same bind Mors class at Karamat looks good but without talking to someone who has been their I'm hesitant to spend my money and time

I couldn't agree more Tracker. A good teacher is only half of the equation. Good students are needed too. If they are not paying attention for one reason or another these things can happen. <br><br>I really liked your more detailed account of the fireless incident. I found it very interesting. Although I had no idea the thread would head in this direction because of that example, it has proved very insightful indeed in several ways.<br><br>It also has me reading my TB Wilderness Survival book again. Good book!

FWIW, our scout troop is campinmg this weekend. It was originally scheduled as a cold weather outing. But we're expecting temps in the upper 60's in Northeast Illinois (perfect meteor watching weather).<br><br>Anyway, we're going to review firestarting techniques, not necessarily survivial. I'm doing the MFS with dryer lint and Petrolium Jelly cotton balls (I've never tried the cotton balls myself so it'll be a learning experience for me). Another leader is bringing a battery and steel wool. Another is bringing his bowdrill. From the way he spoke about it, it sounds as if he's used it before. I've never seen one work in person so it'll be cool to try.