In another post I made the following comment:


Because of this, I thought I'd start up this thread to specifically discuss this aspect of emergency planning.

Ideally, I'm hoping this conversation will help clarify when, if ever, heading off into the woods would be a good and practical response to a realistic and probable emergency scenario. So, I would love to hear:

1. What scenario would require bugging out to the wilderness?
2. Why is this a practical and sound response to the situation?

Your thoughts?

The zombie apocalypse? No, an outbreak of contagious disease, civil unrest, or natural disaster that makes a crowded city more hazardous to live in. Escaping to the wild would get you away from people, in the cases where people are the hazard, such as contagious disease or scarce resources. Me personally, I just don't like crowds anyway and am more comfortable in the woods.

I've done my risk assessments and based me "bob" on likely situations for one thing. For example I see the house fire or tornado happening. For those I grab the bob and use it or the knife to get through the window to get out of the house (fire) or in the case of the tornado shelter in the basement and the tools can be used to cut our way out of the damaged house afterward if needed.
The 'head for then hills' situation is highly unlikely but I already have the tools for that. I own 80 acres of 'wild' that I would go to. Its 250 miles away so it may involve sheltering along the way. I'd be using the truck camper most likely.

The secondary reasoning is these are my outdoor/camping bags and tools so those tools are kept there, its partly just for organization.

I see a lot of people put a Stanley Fuber in their urban bob.

Because campsites may be more available than hotel rooms? That's not "the wild," of course, but it's not necessarily unreasonable to bring your camping gear with you during a bugout.

It seems to me that people bugout into the wild in fiction and when they're being chased by the law.

Other than a true TEOTWAWKI scenario, I have been unable to come up with any scenario where objectively bugging out into the woods makes much sense.

The reality is that while there is some romantic notion of "living off the land" in the wild that appears attractive at first glance, it is all but impossible to do.

For me, camping is mostly for training; not for long term.

( and fun)

Bugging out to the woods is what one does when conducting Guerrilla Warfare against hostile forces.

Bugging out, because staying home is no longer an option, may have one camping out until the crisis at home is under control, because motels are not available or affordable.

Bugging in is always the first option, IMO.

Heading off into the wild may not be necessary, but sometimes it may be the only available option. I agree with chaosmagnet, sometimes the campground - or open field may be the only space (think earthquake). That is why one of the first items brought in is tents. There are many situations where you just need to be gone for a while (potential gas leak, train full of chlorine overturned). Why not go and enjoy a few days camping in the wild till everything blows over (sorry, I couldn't pass that one up).

This is why part of my BOB system includes the two packs that are my canoe bags, set up for a two week camping trip. If I have to live in a campground for a few days, I am ready. If I can, I may take the canoe and get lost for the same time. It leaves me prepared to be away from home for up to two weeks without anything else but a small piece of ground.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Most of the stuff I would need in the wild is mostly the same I would need anywhere else. Shelter, water, light, fire, first aid, etc. I believe my BOB is useful in either case.

I tiered system similar to mine.

I have a backpack with "camping" type gear but if I ever would have to "Bug out" I have gear such as a normal suitcase with pre-packed gear.

Wilderness is a plan z. Plan A is getting a hotel down the streen or far enough away to be unaffected by the situation at hand.

I agree. Unless Red-Dawn-the-movie or The-Walking-Dead-the-TV-show becomes true, I can't see running out to the woods to eat grubs and things as being a viable option. It sounds romantic, well, kind of, but that's pretty much a fairy tale. As much as I enjoy the wilderness, all my survival gear is aimed at getting me out of it, not into it.

I remember a talk with my father many years ago and it sort of relates to this topic.
We were having Big Time Civil Unrest( PC for RIOTS) very close by, ie under 10 mi.
I had just started backpacking a year or two before.
Well Dad said he was ready to send me camping if the Disturbance had continued another day. The local Authorities clamped down Hard and
reasonably fast I think (2day's trouble IIRC). In today's world I do not think
the disturbance would have been quelled as quickly, ie actions taken then are not currently P.C.
The short story was I would have gone camping Sis would have gone to a distant relative Dad and Mom would have stayed home to protect it until
the riot came much closer.
So Bug out to survive, kinda but survive what and for how long ?
Long term, it doesn't really work but you could be forced into it regardless.

The great thing about decent camping gear is the versatility and adaptability they engender. I have a fair amount of gear and I expect I would be using it right in my own back yard when my home collapses into rubble as a result of the Big One. If I need to leave, my gear is light and compact enough that I could take it with me, whatever mode I might adopt. I could then be comfortable in all kinds of situations. I would probably be passing through wilderness, not residing therein.

I have spent enough time in wilderness and isolated areas to realize that talk of "bugging out" for any prolonged time is romantic nonsense and fantasy, especially without support.

We may not PLAN to bug out into the wild, but reemember that we may FIND OURSELVES STUCK in the wild. That is what survival situations are all about.

In my case, I have no ineterest to be " in the wild" except for short camping trips, but I have been stuck in the desert sometimes ago, and it was not fun. I better learn a thing or two about dealing with such situation.

In a military situation, IR will reveal you if you are being looked for. Walking around at night or a fire - you be found.

I plan to bug in. If I have to, I can cache items that may be "contraband" near the house. Close enough to get to, not close enough that they can link them to me. And pretty much, unless someone is really looking closely, the stuff won't be found.

And if the Zombie Applesauce happens, I'll be on the roof with a scoped .22 and a tally sheet.

Probably what is currently going down in Boston, which brings up the problem of being able to bug out during a 'Lock Down'.

Been there. A friend and I once had our flight to Shreveport LA diverted to New Orleans. (Mechanical issues.) We decided to rent a car and drive rather than wait for the next flight. When we finally made it to Shreveport LA we couldn't find a room. No hurricane or anything, just a huge festival going on. A motel in Texarkana told us that every hotel and motel within a few hour radius was sold out. He suggested we head into Texas to find something. We gave up around 2 am. After driving all day an night, we ended up sleeping really uncomfortably in the rental car. Not an emergency, by any means, but I would given all my money for a tent and an air mattress.

IR camouflage clothing is quite inexpensive, such as IRR MoD Genuine issue Smock and Trousers and most IR detection equipment is based on image intensity technology not true Thermal IR using bolometer technology. i.e. movement would be based on the same daylight tactical movement. i.e using cover and stay in the shadows from the cast starlight (unless active IR LED or LASER emitters are used)

Thermal IR using Bolometer is a different story but a wool blanket backed with disruptive pattern mylar cut outs of different thicknesses could be very useful

^^This. it's not high on my list but it's on there.

More likely for us, IMO, is the threat posed by the two nuclear reactors in our area, along with a major national highway and railway, and a tonne of industry. (I.e. I drive by the Oshawa GM plant on the way to work.) A chemical or nuclear accident are our main bug-out scenarios, other than a house fire, local gas leak, etc.

In the event of a local evacuation, we'd be looking to head out of town, and expect that many others would too. We wouldn't be heading to the hills, but plan to stay with relatives out of town. (Which direction we go depends on the prevailing winds at the time.) Being setup to camp out in the back yard could go a long way to ease the tensions that could arise in that scenario. .

I also think that there's a strong likelihood of mass panic in those scenarios. That could effect how far and how fast we can get to one of our BOLs by vehicle. I imagine every hotel and motel between here and our BOLs would either be evacuated too or sell out quickly. Being setup to camp along the way gives us more options.

I completely agree. However, what I wanted to explore here are the scenarios where one would purposefully leave their home / community and head out to the wilderness.

Hey, did you write the script for Planes, Trains and Automobiles? Sounds like that movie was based on your adventures. A fun movie, BTW.

These mostly would result in a bugout if one lives downwind of these types of threatening incidents:

Nuclear power plant accident, local hazmat incident, wildfire, tsunami (if one lives too close to a coast), volcanic eruptions (from ash or lava flows).

Other than downwind incidents:

Flooding, local Earthquake destroys or renders one's home uninhabitable.

BTW: My family did have to Bug Out on Feb 14, 1968 in Laurel, Ms, @ 0400 because a train of propane cars coming through town derailed and the tanks were blowing up.

They blew up one after another. Each fireball went up 1,000 ft and then shroomed like a nuke cloud. Then you'd hear the hot cinders hissing as the landed on the dew covered grass and roofs. The area we lived in was ordered to be evacuated.

In this case, we went to a friend's house on the opposite side of town until the All Clear was sounded later that afternoon. A very unforgettable St. Valentine's Day!!!

Yup,isnt going to be easy at all living in the snow trying to find the little game up here. If I bugout in dire situation I will be leaving the mountain,not going to it.

It almost felt like it at the time. As if the impromptu road trip and no rooms wasn't bad enough, the only car the rental place had left for us was a convertible. The roof leaked pretty badly when it rained, and oh boy did it rain.

Scary, isn't it, Wildman? My family bugged out for a train derailment when I was a kid. Biggest peace-time evacuation in North American history until Katrina.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Mississauga_train_derailment

My mom was Head Nurse at a nursing home and had to go there to evacuate and my dad evacuated with my younger brother and I, who thought we were just going to Grandma and Grandpa's farm for a surprise visit. I remember being a little scared but mostly because my mom wasn't coming with us.

Agree 100%

I have a lot of camping gear (including a teardrop trailer in storage near the mountains) because I love camping. Twenty years ago, during a week-long series of power outages due to ice storms, I became thankful for the preparedness utility of camping gear.

Since 9/11, I've given a lot of thought to "bugging out." Yep, me and several million of my fellow residents in the DC metropolitan area.

Have concluded that the notion of evacuating this city (which I live in the middle of ) in an expeditious manner is hopeless. Living in the wilderness? Ha - what wilderness? Wilderness is an endangered species on this side of the Mississippi.

Those of us on ETS have varied situations and different calculations to make. For me, living in the mid-Atlantic region, it is ludicrous to think that bugging out to wilderness (which is rare in these parts) is any kind of solution to any scenario.

If I'm among the last standing after some mass destruction event, I'd just as soon camp out in a Costco and live out my days with ten tons of canned tuna and an endless supply of toilet paper.


.

^Truth. A few years ago, my family once got stuck out of town for four days due to a major vehicle malfunction. We were enroute for a family camping trip so had all our gear.



It was the height of summer and really freaking hot. After a few hours on the side of the road, we got a tow and found somewhere to stay. We got a motel room but couldn't afford much else other than the vehicle repairs. With all the gear we needed for a week long camping trip, we essentially had the family BOB in the back of the truck. We used it for;

On the side of the road:
-cel phones on two different major networks to call for help (major highway but not one person stopped to help. We called my cousin and he came from out of town to give us a ride to a motel. Tow trucks aren't big enough to carry 3 adults and a kid in a booster seat.)

EDIT: We also called to update our trip plan with our families so they knew where we were

-Trail tape to mark the vehicle
-lots of water to try to refill rad (ultimately pointless this time)
-water bottles, hats, sunscreen, etc... to stay hydrated
*the kids and I went exploring a found a creek that we could have got more water from, and filtered to drink, but help arrived before we needed more.
*we also found a tree with good shade to wait under, otherwise we cold have strung a tarp.

Safety Note: We didn't wait in the vehicle on the side of the highway. We gave the towing company the mile marker number, put some trail tape on the antenna and rear wiper, and then moved off-road, up on a rock cut to wait. The side of the highway is a dangerous place, and this was right after a blind corner. (Note that there are no guard rails in this section of highway.)

In the motel:
-a cooler to keep the food cold after a supply run to the grocery store
-cooking meals and s'mores in the room
-setting up a comfy sleeping area on the floor for our son
-Gerber lantern to act as a night light for our son
-flashlights and headlamps when a storm rolled in and knocked out power to the motel (thankfully, it rolled in after we got the piece of junk on the tow truck)
-toiletries
-prescription and 3 days of OTC meds
-change of clothes
-change for the vending machine.
-deck of cards for entertainment

Having taken my family camping numerous times and so knowing how much gear this takes, I can NOT come up with any scenario where bugging out to the woods would be the better choice than driving a 1000+ miles to some less effected area.

-Blast

But what if it's nation wide? I still say bugging in is the best option for 99.99% of the population. Unless it's a forced evac.

To say nothing of all the free samples....

We just had a massive example of forced bugging in by a large urban population.There should be some interesting stories..

I have, and will continue to spend a lot of time in the woods. I'm off work today, and if we hadn't just received another FOOT of snow two days ago, I'd be out there right now. While camping, hunting, or hiking the woods, I have given a lot of thought to woodland/swamp/prairie survival as a result of scenarios posed on this forum, and have compartmentalized my survival strategies into two major areas:

(1) A situation where I get lost or hurt in the woods and have to self-extract and/or assist another.

(2) A widespread power outage/civil unrest/weather emergency/toxic environmental condition. We don't have tsunamis, volcanoes, or big earthquakes here.

I will admit to heresy...I do not have a BOB poised for immediate action, but I do have a small GHB in my vehicles. The reason is, like several of you have said, IMO there is no realistic scenario that makes bugging out into the woods with a backpack the best option. The stark reality of the prairie and the boreal forest is that while beautiful, there is almost nothing to eat out there for 9 months of the year. My brother, also a 'pragmatic prepper' says " Never walk around in the house wearing anything you wouldn't want seen on the five o'clock news". I do have several large empty military backpacks right next to my food/water and camping gear storage area if needed.

My take:

For scenario (1) I carry what I would need to stay in the woods for a few days if necessary. I carry the means to do first aid, make shelter, get water, start a fire, carry or obtain a little food as the season dictates, navigate, and signal.

For scenario (2) You simply cannot depend on stores, agencies, or the government for aid for a week or more.

I have a 30+ day emergency supply of food (mostly non-perishable, 100 rolls of toilet paper, water, cooking/heating fuel, split wood, batteries, and more. I have the means to defend or move it all if necessary/possible. I have a lightweight Aliner camper that I store ready to go in my yard away from the house, along with several sizes of tents, tarps, rope, cots, and everything associated with camping. I also have a yard barn that I keep clean and it would be pressed into service as a shelter if my house blew/burned down.

My house is my primary shelter, and my back yard is the most likely campsite for me if my house was destroyed.

The main scenario that springs to mind is to avoid the authorities, which is less about survival and more about being a criminal on the run. We've had some in the UK who evaded capture for a while.

In a pandemic, or if there were bad civil unrest, it might make sense to avoid population centres. The trouble is, many other people would have the same idea and in the UK we don't have enough wilderness to go around. I would prefer to bug-in for both scenarios.

I will say that being able to survive comfortably in the wilderness is a good thing. There may not be hotels or other civilised places to stay. Having a tent that you can pitch in any field gives you options over going to some emergency shelter. (However, even a field isn't really wilderness.)

Really? Leaving aside whether bugging out at all is an over-reaction, why bug out to the wilderness specifically? Why not go to a hotel in another town, or stay with friends?

On another forum there was a series of threads about walking 30+ miles to get home and what gear it would take.

I pretty much wrote the idea off as nonsense for any reasonably foreseeable event, but some people thought it was a great idea.

I don't recall for sure, but I do not recall a single person who mentioned having appropriate footwear. One guy suggested duct tape to tape your feet up. I guess it is an army thing.

One guy said he worked in an unsafe area so his plan was to leave his place of employment and walk home by himself. I have to wonder how safe that is compared to barricading one's self inside a relatively secure industrial or commercial facility and waiting things out.

Several people suggested it was because of their families that they would just have to walk home in a blizzard or hurricane. I don't believe I ever got an answer to my question about how it would be helpful to their families for their corpse to be be found when the snow melts, or how they plan to walk anywhere in 100 mph winds with torrential rainfall.

Well, if they find the corpse one can proceed with paying life insurance and death benefits; if they don't find any bodies, such payments are delayed for several (seven?) years.

That probably isn't what they had in mind...

You are right on about the need for good foot gear. The feasibility varies vastly, depending upon circumstances and the person's level of training and experience

Perhaps I should explain in a little more detail.

i) Lock Down was a euphemism for Martial Law. Even Journalists from News and paper media were threatened by Internal Paramilitaries and Police tactical units at Gun Point together with the arrest of civilians who ventured out in various neighborhoods during the 'Lock Down'. There was also the searches of private residences.

ii) The Boston Marathon terror attacks photos showed Special Forces soldiers carrying Geiger counters just after the bombs went off. There is speculation that they were Weapons of Mass Destruction specialists together with other black Ops.

iii) The recent North Korea situation raised US war preparation recently to DEFCON 3.

iv) Chechen Terrorists and WMDs. When reality gets to point that it looks like a Team America script, its time to Bug Out

My main point was really the difficulty of Bugging Out whether the destination was in an aurban or wilderness area during a Martial law situation.

I saw a lot of FBI hostage Rescue Team, SWAT teams, and other police, with some national Guard vehicles with drivers, but I saw no Special Forces. The geiger counters are a standard procedure to confirm or deny the presence of any radioactivity, but there was never any suspicion of any of that in Boston.

The National Guard personnel were there under the command of the law enforcement and not under military command authority. The military in the U.S. is prohibited from conducting operations domestically unless under a presidential order.

That sort of assumption can cause an uproar here in the U.S.

US Civil and US Military Command structures should be quite separate (responsibility and traceable command authority) but they seem to have become blurred and relatively indistinguishable with command structures such NORTHCOM (Command is mostly ex SFs) and its subordinate commands such as Joint Task Force Civil Support (JTF-CS) with expertise in CBRNE

http://www.northcom.mil/About/index.html#JTFCS

Redacted

I saw the Secret Service involvement and even Diplomatic Security service involved in the Boston event. Exactly where the buck stopped and who actually had overall command authority whether it was military i.e. National Guard, NORTHCOM Joint Task Force Civil Support, or Civil command such as Secret Service, DHS ATF, Sheriffs department, Boston Police, State Police or FBI JTTF or what other alphabet soup agency was calling the shots was a little unclear.

The Scottish Highlands has a population density of 9/km2 (23 /sq mi), compared to London at 5,206/km2 (13,466/sq mi) and New York has 27,550/sq mi (10,640/km2).

There is nothing much in terms of population north of Dundee and is probably one of the larger areas of Europe for wilderness area (if measured in population densities).

I can't really see the great hordes of Londoners heading for the wilds of the Scottish Highlands and the unknown badland territories north of the Watford gap! Many of them also think that England ends along the Great Glen and then Scotland Starts at on the other side of Loch Ness..