Some of you may have seen this, but I just had to post it.

http://www.wtop.com/209/3244604/40-hikers-rescued-lost-on-mountain

Briefly, a group of 40 college students set off on a hike in the Kentucky mountains, on a defined trail. They had basically no equipment, were not dressed for the weather, got lost, and called for help using their cell phones. (I have to assume nobody thought to use a GPS tracker on their phones, either).

I am stunned that out of the 40, apparently no one was prepared. At least some had a flashlight. . .I suppose that is something.

When you're in college, you're indistructable. I know I was. I mourn for those days, but glad I survived them.

Well, they set off for adventure ... and found it.

There's often a "groupthink" phenomenon in situations like these. With that many people all together, everybody assumes that somebody else is handling the details. And there's peer pressure to not be the "negative nelly" in the group.

However, a stern wag of the finger at the three staff members on the hike who were, I imagine, responsible for the safety of the group.

That, I think, is what makes us different.

I am sure they were fully prepared; they probably had Monster drinks . . .

"Never hike alone. You are safer in a group." How many times have we heard this? Well, it depends....Not all groups are well prepared at all. I suppose at some time a "group" becomes a "rabble" or a "mob." There is a big difference.

At least the cell phone made a big difference in enabling the SAR group to respond effectively.

Two years of scouting and twenty merit badges should be required for high school graduation.

This was a planned trip, organized in advance by three leaders.

True, it was.

IMO, this raises even more questions/concerns. How much trust/faith should a person put in the folks organizing such trips? Should we not take the same precautions/preps that we would take if we were going alone? I don't know. But I have found over the years that Mr. Murphy is always watching me and has a sense of humor. That is, when I depend on others, it turns out I shouldn't have.

What might be interesting to discuss, if you were the leaders of this group, what instructions should you have given them about what to bring with them on the trip? For example, I think I would have told them at least something to the extent that "weather in the mountains can change quickly-- please bring a warm sweater, and a light rain jacket, preferably with a hood-- if you don't have this bring a jacket and a dollar store poncho and warm hat.-- also, try to wear warm/water proof shoes/boots, or bring a change of shoes and socks."

It seems, at least for this group, hypothermia was the biggest risk. My old NCO training convinced me it was my duty as a buck sergeant to try to watch out for the guys under me. While I think there was a lot of failure to go around, the group leaders should know better.

Even with that said, my belief is that we are all responsible for ourselves -- if we are in trouble, we can't help those who are.

What makes you think that?

It was a religious excursion and it is almost a certainty that the group leaders were chosen for their religious qualities as opposed to their experience in organizing and running a group hike in the woods.

I see nothing wrong with being a religious leader but that gives you no special knowledge about anything else. Yet, the neophytes tend to see them as having that knowledge because of their religious leadership position.

It really would not even have to be a religious group. Many people tend to see leaders in general as having some special knowledge on just about everything they touch on, even though history has shown that leaders are often wrong about most everything.

Hear! Hear!

College students... I imagine there was one real leader. Everybody else followed, while cracking jokes and drinking. When I was in college, I was invincible too.

I would like to agree with you, and I have encountered some very fine Scout groups over the years, but I have also dealt with far too many that were led by total incompetents. I would say that it is a total lottery.

The final one with which I dealt was bad enough to make me swear that from where the sun now stands, I would never have anything to do with any Scout group.

I have to say this case appear to be more along the lines of them not even being aware that there was anything for God to protect them from. Not sure how this leads to religion bashing - it could just as well have been a cooking club.

But point taken.

On a related note. I've seen a few examples in youtube videos, etc. of "survival instructors" actually going through packs and telling the students that they can't take certain items in order to create the desired "challenge." The implication is that the student relies on the instructor to provide safety net - which ironically goes directly against the first thing they should be teaching!

Kinda like teaching the importance of a reserve parachute by having the student jump without a working main chute.

No bashing going on. As I mentioned, it could have been a different kind of group. This one just happened to be a religious group. Since I have some experience with such groups, I can appreciate how it could be that someone completely unqualified to lead such an expedition might be in charge.

You speak the truth. I'm sorry that it ended so badly for you.

Every group is different but one thing is the same: volunteering to be a Scout leader does not instantly grant a person a wealth of expertise, but most people would assume that a Scout leader has just that when it comes to the outdoors. most of us are still learning to one degree or another. The good ones know their own limitations and respect them but, sadly, not all of us are good ones.

I think you're right, ILBob. Regardless of whether we're taking religion, cooking or ice dancing, a lot of people put full faith in their group leaders, even if the event has little to do with what the group is about and/or calls on completely different skills than is required for the person's leadership role. (Personal example: we took our Cub Scouts to the fire station last spring and one of the dad's asked me a technical question about one of the fire trucks. I'm no fireman but he somehow thought I'd know.)

It is an aspiration -- not a description.

I think that whenever someone assumes a leadership role, there is an ethical/moral responsibility that goes with that role to take some minimal care regarding the safety of that group and the individuals in the group. It doesn't matter what the group is or why it was formed. It is true that many people -- probably more than most, who are appointed group leaders don't think about such things. IMO, they should. That's the aspiration part.

Using this incident as an example, I don't expect the group leaders to be experts in survival, or even near that, to take a group out on a hike in the park. But I do think that it is part of their responsibility to think a bit about things like the weather etc., and remind people to take a jacket etc. with them.

Exactly what steps should be taken by the group leaders have to be based on the facts of the situation---but I do feel it is always something that should be considered. A few reminders before the trip might have saved a lot of discomfort.

All that being said, it still doesn't eliminate the individual's responsibility to be prepared.

The hike evidently was tangential to the main mission of the group. "Let's go for a hike - how difficult can that be, especially on a marked trail.." They certainly aren't the first group to get into trouble following that logic, and they won't be the last.

I have say that I agree with this line of thinking. If you're in a leadership position, you should take responsibility for your group by either learning the basics, including safety, of the activities your going to be doing or by recruiting someone who does. Learn to be a safe guide or hire someone who is.

That said, I'll bet this group, leader included, thought they were simply going for a nature walk. How complicated should walking be? Yes, we ETSers know better, but a good chunk of the population, leaders included, don't see the potential risks in a simple walk. The problem isñ't that they're poor leaders, but that they don't know what they don't know, and as long as nothing ever goes wrong or they don't see their EXACT scenario in someone else's plight, they never will.

I think you are expecting people to know what they don't know and that is very hard. One of the things about people who do have some expertise is that they are experts in knowing what they do not know. People who don't know, just don't know, and thinking about it will not change anything.

You may actually be surprised how many townies fail to realise that when the bright fiery ball in the sky disappears that it gets dark to the point that they can't see where they are going together with the surprising lack of Starbucks and McDs...

Going forward, the good news is that there will be some number of that group who will think twice in the future and do a better job of taking responsibility for themselves. Certainly not all of them will, but anything is an improvement...

I agree - at a minimum each hiker should have
a pack
a water bottle
a jacket

And the leaders should have
faK
lights
map/compass

Somewhere in there should be the means to build a fire.

This happened not far from where I live, and I've treaded that area more than once. Almost any preparation or foresight, at all, would have prevented the need for rescue. Good that they're ok, though.

Well they say never underestimate the power of stupid people in a group. I think we all can be guilty of this to degrees, even those of us who perceive themselves as rugged individualists.

They are not necessarily stupid, so much as they are operating in an unknown and unfamiliar environment. Put any of us in unusual situations and we will probably make some regrettable decisions. I am fine in most wilderness contexts, but drop me in some places in a large urban area, and I have a good chance of becoming chopped liver very quickly. Come to think of it, I am not in command of all wilderness environments. I have practically no experience in jungles, for instance.

that assumes they could figure out how to gather firewood.

things that are second nature to some of us, even if rarely practiced are not obvious to many. I can't tell you how many times when I was car camping I would see people give up trying to start a fire and use an accelerant. I have even done it when I am in a hurry.

Personally, I am in favor of carrying something that can make emergency fires a lot easier. When one is cold and wet and in trouble is not a good time to be practicing one's bush craft skills.

I was thinking that either the leaders should carry enough large "trash" bags so there would be one for each person, or distribute one to each person. The bags could be used, with head and arm holes cut, as a poncho, or with just a hole cut for the head as a hasty shelter. Or it could be used for the trash.

We then need to also add a knife or scissors to the list.

I'm baffled by the people I see that get a fire going with a whole bottle lighter fluid! They seem to think it's magic, that it obviates the need for any fire prep at all. But the fluid flashes over and burns out leaving them with a mess and a dumb look on their faces!

Fire making is probably a prime example of the need for skills as well as the shiny gadgets. The paradox of fire is that it is dreadfully easy to make when you need it least (hot and dry) and yet fearfully demanding when you need it most(cold and wet). I have had to make fire when it was really urgent and I decided long ago that a small backpack stove was the most dependable source of flame and heat. Not that heavy - 3 oz to one pound - and absolutely vital in severe conditions.

Quoting for truth! Firecraft can be so so easy but isn't usually that way when you absolutely need it. Practicing in adverse conditions and with a variety of materials is something that I place high on my personal practice and 'pass it on' list.

they went with 40.
they came back with 40.
they survived - and so they learned.
there is no greater teacher than Mother Nature.

I have 2 daughters. One is a teenager.
If i had a dollar for every time i have told those girls to take a warm coat when they go out on a cold day, or go out at night, I'd be a rich man. do they ever listen? No. :-)
but a near-freezing experience will bring the lesson home.

maybe we should take all college students out in groups of 40.
and put them thru the same thing as the group in the story.
it's not a bad idea!

Pete2

I think ... we can but *hope* they learned. In a group that size, at least a few of them must have started thinking about what went wrong and how. But doubtless there are some who stop with, "At least the phone still had signal!" Or worse, "The woods are harrrd! It's a miracle anyone EVER survives!"