I just caught a brief BBC story about 7 lost Russian researchers. Their basecamp was destroyed by a massive ice ridge, the immediate ice sheet broken up. They are afloat somewhere in the winter dark with a week's supply of provisions. A difficult SAR is underway. May the spirit of Shakelton be with them.

They were all sucessfully rescued today.
Apparently the ice broke up beneath them, sending huge blocks of ice upwards, crushing most of their camp.
The rescue was hampered due to very low light levels, bad weather, and the fact the ice flow they were on was moving 3-4 miles a day.
Here's the link with all the info:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/environment/story.jsp?story=498654

For once theres a happy ending.

Chris- I thought shackelton perished on the ice. I could be wrong though <img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sorry - here's an up to date link - editing has a strange habit of not working to well <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/06/russia.arctic/

Shackelton and his entire crew survived the ill-fated expedition. He later returned to Antarctica, where he died of natural causes, I think (I believe it was a heart attack) and was buried there.

Not all of his party survived. One of his crew brought his cat along. Being an animal person, I was apalled to learn he had the crewmember shoot the animal. I know it was a different time and all that. But, survival or not, I consider it inexcusable.

Did he shoot the animal for food? I wouldn't imagine it was for sport. It must be hard to shoot your beloved pet for whatever reason, so I wouldn't accuse him of animal cruelty. The fact he got someone else to shot the cat may say something about him. Prehaps he had no choice. Either the cat was injured, or rabid or maybe it was the cats life or his.
I'm going to have to read the story!

No, not food. He said he couldn't risk running out of food by having to feed a cat. At any rate, he didn't want to be slowed down by anyone or anything. I lost a lot of my respect for him when I read that. To me, our humanity is largely defined by our treatment of the so-called "lower" animals. To Shackleton, the cat was expendable. Very cold-blooded, I think. I watched the special on the expedition, and it was pretty obvious the cat was killed because Shackleton didn't want to bother with it.

The same afternoon that the cat was killed Shackleton also had one sickly dog and three pups killed. "We could not undertake the maintenance of weaklings under the new conditions." The next day they began their trek across the ice. The men were allowed 2 lbs of personal effects. Shackleton begrudged that weight but realized that "The journey might be a long one, and there was a possibility of a winter in improvised quarters on an inhospitable coast at the other end. A man under such conditions needs something to occupy his thoughts,....." I hardly think Shackleton was a cold blooded cat killer but rather that he was not afraid to make any hard choice to ensure the survival of his men in what he clearly recognized as a challenge that some might not survive.

Quotes are from South by Ernest Shackleton

Ed

Hindsight is always 20-20. We weren't there and I think it accomplishes little to try and second guess why someone makes a certain decision unless you are trying to learn something from it. Shackleton was stuck in one of the most remote, inhospitable places in the world, with absolutely no hope of any outside help, and in a situation that almost defied description. The fact that anyone at all came back from that 1915 expedition is amazing and the testament to a leader of the highest caliber, who focused on getting his men home against impossible odds.

"Didn't want to" and "couldn't afford to" are two very different things.

As far as our "humanity" being defined by the way we treat "lower" animals, humans have been hunting those animals for food and survival for pretty much all of our existence. Even today, there are cultures in North America where, if you tell them you're a vegetarian, they simply won't understand the concept. To say that they're inhuman, or subhuman, because they don't subscribe to a modern philosophy (that is shared only by a tiny minority), is an attitude I cannot agree with.

Shackelton was in charge, he was responsible for the lives of his men, and he made a command decision. I don't see anything reprehensible in that. YMMV

In that case, he made a command decision I strongly disagree with.

You weren't there. He was. :-)

It all depends... did they eat the cat?

I sincerely hope they ate it and did not waste the cat by burying it.

Bountyhunter

Nope and Yep.

No. Shot and buried.

Too easy an excuse. I don't accept senseless killing.

Agreed. And he IS a hero. He did his job and brought his men back alive. He still had a defenseless animal shot.

Yes. I agree with you, but I still don't agree with him. I can't.

Plus the crewmate who brought the cat was an idiot.

If you love your pets, you don't subject them to possibly adverse conditions. My cat is fat and happy -- and grounded. No outdoors for him. Too many dead cats in the gutters for my taste.

By all means, read up on it. Let us know what you think.

Some of my own Thots in both Reply to your Post, and Others in this Thread.

Much as I Like / Love - Cats / Animals, and though I am Gentle and the Like,-

I'm of the View that in this Situation, He had the Cat and Other Animals Killed, in the Context and Reason of, the Overwhelming Imperatives of the Survival Situation.

Some of my Main Thoughts from Reading this Thread so Far, are;-

I Recall Reading once that Captain Cook, Ailing and Dying on one of his Voyages, (Deep in the Southern Pacific Antarctic Ocean), was Saved and eventually Revived!, Only by being Fed the Meat of their Beloved Little Dog! They were Critically Short on Other such Food, at the Time. Upon Sufficient Revival, Captain Cook asked how this was Done. And someone had to Reply that it was Due to his own Beloved Dog! The Captain Understood. Sure, I'm Sure he Regretted that it Had to be so! And that He'd Wished it could have somehow been Different! But he Readily Understood. This is the *Only* Thing which in that Situation, -Saved Captain Cook's Life!

A Cat or Other Animal *is* Food.

And a Cat or Other Animal Takes Up or Uses Food! Valuable, Limited, Food! Which you just may Not be Able to Spare!

On Expendability, Even People are, Rightly andor Wrongly, Expendable in certain Genuine "Lifeboat Situations". What of when our Soldiers have to Make a Raid in Vietnam or in Iraq? Or in the D-Day Invasion, when it Took X Number of Men getting Lost, Before their Bangalore Torpedo was Finally Able to Blow the Obstacle Wire? What is the Neccessary Choice involved in Triage All About? It's Totally Unfortunate and Regrettable! But What Else in these No Choice Situations would you Really Do? In Such Life or Death Situations, Sometimes such Choices are Unavoidable, and just Can't be Helped! People and/or Animals *Factually* are Expendable, in These Such Situations Only! The Only "Alternative" is to be Entirely Nobly Humane!, Never so Expendably Sacrifice One of your Number in such Situations. And End Up Having More or even All Die!, as a Result! One is Making *More* People Expendable!, by that Very Thinking and Process! And Unlike with the Earlier Expendability I speak of here, -These Extra Losses now!, are Unneccessary! This is Like Forest Fire Fighters Never Lighting a Neccessary Backfire! Out of "Ethically Ironic" of Justifications.

We Are to Have and Retain our Humanity as Far as All Possible! But Such Hard, Inescapable, Life or Death Choice Situations!, Sometimes will just Not Allow!, What's *Normally* the Most Noble and Humane of Preferences and Choices! I Don't Mean to Sound so Coldly Brutal. And I Don't Pretend or Claim that I'd Always be my Most Brave or Noble in Life myself! But These sorts of Tough Choices in Such Situations!, are just What They Are! In Short, It's just the Way it All Round Is!

It's somewhat similar to What Trump says on his commercial for his New Show, paraphrasing, -"It's Nothing Personal!, -It's just Business!" In this case, the Unfortunate Life or Death, Rational Judgement Call, "Business" of Such a Decision and Choice! There is a Certain Area of Similarity. And this commercial of his is one of the Things that Came to Mind, on my Reading this Thread.

People in Survival Situations *Don't* just Make such Decisions Lightly! This is No Time to Indulge any sort of a Suggested, Cold Blooded, Animal Killing Bloodlust! Do we Really Think that Shackleton was Entertaining any of 1,001 Niceties or Other Topics in Life?!, There in His and His Men's Survival Situation?! No!, His Thoughts were in Relation to that Latter!, Survival, Extrication, and Living Alone! Any Thoughts of Anything Else, were in Relation to That! -Of How They Bore on That! To just Cold Bloodedly Kill an Animal Purely to Do Such!, Had to be the Farthest Thing from!, and Most Non-Existant Thing In!, his Mind! Let's Remember to be "Survival Real"!, for a Moment here!

If Shackleton Didn't Want to Bother with the Animal, -Then *Why* Didn't he Want to Bother Himself with the Animal? Let's Ask ourselves That. Refer to the Paragraph(s) Before this one, for the Answer.

What Maggot has said here about the Benefit of 20 / 20 Hindsight certainly Applies here! It's so Easy to 20 / 20 or Monday Morning Quarterback here! And I Don't Think we can "De-Justify" Shackleton's Unfortunate but Neccessary Decision, -Even in Hindsight!

Even if Neccessary as I'm Sure it was, -They'd Have to Later Eat the Cat, Dog, and Three Pups. May as Well. And They Absolutely Needed To! Which I Think is a Foregone Conclusion that they Did.

I've Seen in either This or Another Shackleton Progran Lately, that it Involved More than just Those particular Animals. That it had eventually Gotten to the Point, Where They had to kill Many of their Sled Dogs as well. The Same Unfortunate Circumstances! The Same Regrettable but Neccessary Reasoning!

Thank God that a Great Many Ordinary Life Situations are Not Life or Death Survival as This One was. To just Kill Cats or Any Other Animals in Pure Cold Blood, Outside of Such Neccessary Situations, (Humane Livestock Slaughters and Such Excepted), is just Wrong, Unjustifiable, and Inexcuseable!

It's More Humane, to Quick Kill an Animal in a Shackleton Situation, than to just Let it Slowly Starve. And Along with Unneccessary Others of you to Boot!

Shackleton's "Not Wanting to Bother" with the Cat, Goes Back to the Cat's Presence Equaling a Taking Up of Part of the Valuable, Limited, Remaining Food Supply! Not Pure Out Not Wanting to Bother Per Se! What would you Do?, Really! -If you Didn't Have Any Access to Any Other Food!, For Thousands of Miles Around! Other than your Animals, and What Little Food as you Do have with you? It's Easy to Talk and Make After the Fact Judgements from Up here in Europe or the U.S.A.! But What would Any of us!, in a Real No Food Situation, -Really Do?!

I Guess the Same can Go for "Lifeboating" and Cannibalization Decisions. Here I would Think we Shud Still Go by our Moral and Ethical Compass. And Do Cannibalization Only After someone has Naturally Passed On. Perhaps even if that Means More in the Party may First Die by Other Natural Causes, within the Survival Situation. Than Otherwise. I Hate to say it, but an Animal at least in this way, is Less and Different!

And Finally, I think of my Own Two Cats, as I Think these Situational Thoughts, and Write This. What They might Think and Feel!, if They ever Knew that I Thought This! In such Real, Push Comes to Shove!, Life or Death, Survival Situation! But That Still Doesn't Change these Situational Realities there One Bit!

Shackleton Unfortunately Still Had to Do What he Still Had to Do!, -There in His Real Make It or Break It!, Life or Death, Survival Call and Situation! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Craig[/email]

I Prefer What Bountyhunter has said, I Entirely Echo and Agree with his View in This Situation. But even if the Cat was Not Eaten, and Wasted Foodwise in that Respect!, This Still Saved and Stretched Later Food Supplies! That the Cat would Later Have Eaten! To Do so for Food Preservation Purposes is in the Dire Situation both Sound, and Imperatively Called For, as well.

In the Situation, This shud have been Combined with Eating It as Bounty has said.

Further, I Think to Have Sentimentally and Respectfully Buried It, After Having to Neccessarily kill It!, Shows a NON Cold Bloodedness in This! And NOT it's Brutal and Cold Blooded Opposite! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Craig[/email]

Whoa DUDE... by any chance do you belong to P.E.T.A.???

O.K. I moved this to the campfire, in hopes it won't turn into a er, cat fight. Doug and I both own cats. I now turn the issue over to Piewacket Kavanaugh, resident ETS forum administrator assistant. Meow. The cat was a ship's cat. This honourable position being one of neccessity to control rats. I believe the presence of the dogs was almost a death sentence under those trying conditions. A .455 short Webley was much more preferable to prolonged suffering or a violent end. Meow.

Nope. Not a PETA member. I am merely an animal lover. Those people are animal fanatics.

Rationnaly (intellectually ?), I have to agree with "Piewacket"...


But love (for a human being or an animal) is not rational; so, emotionally, being a cat person myself, I understand some of Craig position.

Just from reading these posts (I have not read the book), It seems the situation asked for that decision : Shackelton was not sure to be able to save the men, so saving the cat was certainly out of question. And that seems to be a "gentler" death for that cat, that what could have happened. And he could (should ?) have asked the dead cat to be fed to the men or remaining dogs...
Could he have said that man : "keep the cat, but both of you will live on your food share" ? I don't think so... too complicated a situation afterwards

Well, maybe I should discuss with my own cat and see what she thinks about that kind of situation : we are isolated and starving ; which one of us will die first and be food for the other .... ??? ....
I guess for most of us on this forum, that's not even a question ... and certainly not one, when sitting in front of a keyboard, with food (human- and cat-) in the cupboard...
but ... ouch... that could be kind of a deep one.... why do we live and so forth ...what is the exact situation, any hope for one or the other, etc...
aïe ... Craig, help me to get out of it ...

We are judging an event from a very different time. I can turn on the T.V. and watch helicopters, emergency units and personel turned out to rescue horses, dogs, even wild elk and moose. My Grandfather's generation would be incredulous to these efforts. I can still remember watching a horse shot for a relatively minor injury. But it was unserviceable and that was the economics of the day. Lest we assume those times were totally brutal, walk an older city. Enjoy the many mature trees and water fountains. How wise the city fathers were to think of our future enjoyment. Sorry, these were sheer neccessities for the benefit of the horses that moved people and goods. Past generations had a different view to livestock and pets. But, they didn't create the Dantesque horrors of factory farming, laboratory testing and other monstrosities that make their actions pale.

I totally agree with you, in both posts.

I just wanted to say that I don't see MY cat as an "animal" anylonger ... it's part of the family !

How many people died, by returning in their burning house, to try to save their beloved one, be it their baby or their pet dog ?

The relationship changes everything...

And nowadays, the only relation most (city) people have with animals is a very close one with their pet cat/dog/... and no longer a "working tool" relation as you described.

I remember reading an old Russian story about a wedding party with the bride, groom, and fathers of both coming home after the wedding in a rural location.

It was wintertime at night and they were traveling by horse drawn sleigh back to the city. As they started traveling through the woods, a pack of wolves began pursuing the sleigh. Seeing that the pack was about to overtake them, the father of the groom jumped off the sleigh sacrficing himself in the hopes of saving the others. Some of the pack stopped to kill and feed on him while the rest of the pack kept after the sleigh. The father of the bride jumped off the sleigh in hopes of saving his daughter and new son-in-law, and part of the pack killed him and started feeding on him while two of the wolves continued after the sleigh. The sleigh was heavy, and the horses were tired, and the two remaining wolves were gaining on the bride and groom. The groom tired from the chase, despondent over the loss of his father, and realizing there was only one way to throw off the wolves summoned his last bit of strength and threw his bride off the sleigh and continued on his way to the city.

The morales:

None of us know for sure what we are truly capable of until a situation arises.

Our heritage does not guarantee our actions.

And damn few of us are as good as our fathers.

By the way, in the Russian of those days, if his own relatives had not killed the groom to put him out of the families shame and misery, the relatives of the bride would have.

Bountyhunter

To all you animal lovers, I have to say that in a survival situation that had diverse survivors (as opposed to the men who were all of the same group on that ill-fated expedition.), you would probably be thrown out of the group without supplies or psk's, but with your cat or dog, or you would be killed for threatening the the survival of your group.

The survivors of the Peruvain air crash ate the bodies of their dead to live. Those that did not, died. If your choice is death for the love of your pet, so be it, but do not expect others in your group to respect your pets life.

Bountyhunter

P.E.T.A.
People for The Eating of Tasty Animals
<img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
http://www.mtd.com/tasty/

You are certainly right.

I don't think I said anything like that (putting the group at risk) ; if so, please excuse my poor english.
The only hypothetical situation I mentionned where I would (maybe.... not been there ... and hope I will never be ...) hesitate, was a situation involving ONLY me and my cat.

As for being thrown away, without my PSK/supplies, I guess in such a situation, people will easily kill others to obtain what they didn't think necessary before. And I also guess I would ask myself less questions about those people than about my cat. That could even result in more meat for the group <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I won't pursue this thread because, my english being not good enough, I don't know how to understand the begining of your post :
<img src="images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I just said I loved MY cat, not necessarily yours or anybody else's... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


P.S. : I'm NOT a vegetarian, either.... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

In a Worst Case Scenario of this Sort, (Perhaps it can Indeed be Called a "Shackleton Scenario") It Comes Down to a Choice between a Valued, Beloved Relationship, and Dying over It, and Allowing yourself to Live, but at the Sacrifice of your Loved One of that Relationship!

Many People are Noble Enuff to Choose the First / Former, over the Second One / Latter.

Many are Not like Bountyhunter's Russian Groom! Some X number of People though are! (See his Post earlier in this Thread)

Just as Many a One may Not Leave their Human Loved One in such Situations!, Even at the Endangerment and Expense of their Own Lives!, -Some may Honestly Feel Such toward their Pet! / Another Animal !

I would Urge People to Put their Own Human Life First!, in such Situations, Ahead of the Animal's Life and Well Being. To the Extent that the Animal Cannot be Helped in any Way, within the Situation. Much as I too may Love my Animal! Even my Beloved Dog of my Teenage Days, -"King"! King for One would Want me to!

So if One Really and Sufficiently Feels such "Family and Such Love"!, Toward their Animal, to Sacrifice even Themself!, Then I Do Understand their Decision.

While still Preferring that Person to Put Themself / Other Humans, Ahead of that Animal in such Situations. Where All Possible and Where Need Be.

While in Many Respects Animals are Not Less than People, in Other Ways, We Are just Something Greater and More!

Do we Really Love and Value an Animal Life Form that is Somewhere Between Protozoa and Insect, -as Much as or More than our Cats or Dogs?! Of course we Simply and Typically Do Not!

Much as we Love and Value our Animals!, We Shud still Place the Greater Emphasis, Accent, and Focus, -on Saving our Own, and Other Fellow Human, Lives! In Any such Tuff and No Other Choice!, and Worst Comes to Worst!, of Situations. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]frenchy[/email]

I don't think the food supply was an issue, the issue was how much of their food they could carry with them. The ship was probably well-provisioned, they just had to abandon it and take what they could carry.

My understanding was that Shackelton felt that taking the cat along (and making sure it had enough to eat, etc.) would have endangered the survival of his men. Of course, my knowledge of this is based on the Kenneth Branagh mini-series, which is not exactly an authoritative reference.

A Cat Itself kills Other Animals for it's Food! And we're Talking about the Killing of an Animal for Food, or Not!?

Shackleton's Decision involved and concerned His Group's Food Supply,

-Even if the Deceased Cat Itself was (Respectfully and Belovedly) Not used to Augment their Food Supply in itself.

The Cat would Have Otherwise Continued to Eat some of the Group's Valuable and Limited Food Supply.

In this Sense, It's Passing Saved or at least Stretched!, the Group's Food Supply!

It was so a "Food Bearing On" Decision of Shackleton's, even if the Cat Itself was Respectfully Not eaten.

Not Eating It, -Does Not automatically Equate into Senseless, Cold Blooded killing!

I personally Think they shud Have Augmented their Food Supply even More, by using their Deceased Cat as an Additional Food Source.

It was probably a Concencus Decision, in which to Not eat It, Came Out as a Majority Decision. I wouldn't be Surprised if Shackleton Himself Put That Question to a Vote.

However Done, They Made a Wisely Neccessary Decision toward Stretching Valuable Food Supplies, but a Not Wise One, -to Not Also Make Good Food Use of the Unfortunately / Neccessarily Deceased, Cat.

From these Pressing and Sound, Neccessary Reasons which Brought the Decision and Action About, This D & A was Neither an Excuse Nor Senseless. And as to killing, it was a Killing, but Not a Senseless, Cold Blooded One. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Craig[/email]

Hey, don't misunderstand me...
That was just "keyboard" talk....
Someone said it in an other post : nobody knows how he will behave in such a situation (if he has not already lived thru one once... and even then ... circumstances are never the same).
Maybe I won't even ask me the question.
Or maybe I will be in such a state, that the life of my cat will be more usefull to the survival of the group.... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
(and anyway, I'm much fatter than she is... more meat for the group .... <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Let's hope you and I are never in a survival situation together.

Agreed. Totally different times. Almost 100 years apart. They had yet to see the War to End All Wars -- which didn't.

We've seen two world wars and countless undeclared wars. And yet our generation sees dogs and cats as companion animals and not as work animals.

Oh, Don't Worry any Little Bit!, for there was No Misunderstanding from my End.

I Know and Knew Fully on how you were Speaking on Relationships, -the Nature and Value Thereof.

I was concerned a Bit as I typed, that it could Seem as if I had some Disagreement or Difference!

But there was No such. I Did Perfectly Understand What you Meant. And as we say here in America, -Where you were Coming From!

Quickly Recapping for Anyone's Benefit, I of course Basically Meant, in a Few Words,

-That if One Loves their Animal Enuff to Actually Wish to Sacrifice Themself for it!, Shud such Need Arise, -Then I Do Understand, and in a Way, Respect That.

And Others Choose the Human Life(s) in such a Situation.

This Latter, Much as I and Others Love and Value Animals!, is Where I Think in such Situations, -One Shud Put the Greater Focus!

I once again Did Understand your Meaning, and Had No Issue with It. So Please Not Concern yourself any Bit on any of That! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]frenchy[/email]

Reading through the posts it strikes me that in a lot of situations other than an icy wilderness, a cat, even your house bound moggy, is far more likely to be able to survive, than your average man. It is after all a born hunter, and has no qualms about killing birds and small rodents.
Doubtless there are exceptions to this, but thier ability to survive is not as "bred out" of them as it is for the modern day human.
What value you put on "animal" life depends on the individual. I verge on the more cold-hearted side of the fence, others may differ.
However it does seem rather strange in a forum like this to be talking about animal welfare, while we practice making snares to kill those cute little fluffy bunny rabbits, and perfect the art of tying line on barbed hooks to catch fish.

For years I made every Marine in my unit read Shackleton's Journey just because of the mental toughness that was displayed during their hardship. Anyone who can snivel about being cold, hungry or uncomfortable after reading that book is not human. Everytime I was in a situation where life was miserable, I always pictured Shackletons crew and I sucked it up.

As for the cat controversey, everyone is obviously entitled to their own opinion. As a Christian, I know that man was placed above all animals, so I don't look at animals as being "human-like". I've always had pets (not cats) and would not hesitate to put them out of their misery or kill them out of some other need. I only kill animals for food or damage control and I don't expect everyone to get it. More than 80% of the meat my family eats comes from wild game that I kill. To PETA that's unforgivable... to me, that's life.

Semper Fi, George

Indeed! It's occurred to me that we can Learn so Much of Survival, by "just" Watching our Cat!

Be it Survival, Stealth, Concealment, Tracking, Silence, Stalking, and Whatall Others.

A lot of the Benefit of this Exercise, is that it's a Good Way to First get Familiar with the Main Requirements, as Well as the various Chief "Subcategories" of General Survival.

I've been Thinking of sometime Making such a Post, on this Topic. I'm in effect Doing so now. This is a Good Oppurtunity to now Do so.

So "How Does your Cat Do It?!" Watch How it Eats! Or Stretches and Keeps Limber. Curls Up for Warmth. Sleeps. Conserves and Manages it's Energy. Keeps Warm. (It's Fur, Etc) And Dry! Rests. Hides. How they Jump! Their Great Sense of Balance! Their Footing. How they Go About Seeking and Getting it's Food! It's Utter Patience and Intent Watchfulness in Doing so! It'sScratch-Sharpening of it's Claws. It's Caution and Wariness! It's Sense of, and Use of it's of Sense of Smell, certainly Closer to a Dog's than we are! The Way it Sits in a Window or Elsewhere and Watches Things! And Listens for Things and Hears. The Way they Hiss / Pounce / Scratch / and Fight. How and Why they Keep Themselves Clean, and the Healthy Sanitation they Practice regarding their Wastes. Their Silence. Their Laying Low, (Literally and Figureatively), and Not Making Waves or Bothering Anybody. A Large Part of That, is in how They Themselves Don't Want to be Bothered. And On and On! How Does your Cat Do it?!

Or Dog? Along these Same Lines, -How is it Provided For by Other Normal, Often Taken for Granted, Aspects of Life?! Dog?

Or How's it All Provided For around the Average Home?! In other words, -How Does the Home Do It?!

How Do the Locals thruout our World Do It?!

How Do you and Others generally Do It within the Society and Economy? And How Does Society and the Economy as a general Whole, Do It?!

Of course Work or some Service is usually Done, you get Paid some of our Medium of Exchange known as Money. With Which you Go Out on some of your Free Time, to Buy / Obtain Food and Other Neccessities of Life. Or Pay a Rent or Mortgage, Towards Having and Retaining your Shelter! Your Electric, Gas, or Other Means of Warmth! And On and On!

But Just What is All Round Involved here?, -And Just How is it Generally Done? What Survival and Sustenance Items and Practices Do we so Take Care of?, with some of that Societal Money that we Earn? Just What Do We and Animals All Do!?, Towards This? How Do we Go About Doing It?!

Look, Think, and Watch on These Sometime! It's Really Interesting and Intrigueing to Think of!

We can then Tap Into Such, and Apply It! In a Better "Whole Picture" Awareness of Survival and Prep, and of What They Come Down To and are All About!

How Does your Cat Do it?! How is It Done via Other Things in Life?!

These Other (Common Societal) Means for Doing So, -are in a Sense just "Glorified Survival"!

We typically Get our Meat, Fish, Fruit, and Other Food, from a Supermarket or Other Store! Rather than Directly thru Nature and it's Elements. But the Store and Everyone Else Ultimately get their's from Nature and it's Elements! Even if that is via the "Semi-Natural" Means of Agriculture. "Survival Gardening" and Other Subsistence Food Provision, is also Such. So it's by No Means "Contrary" to Survival!

Someone Else somewhere in the Society has Grown It, in a "Favorably Conditioned" Area, for His or Her Own Economic / Survival Interests and Livlihood. It's then been Transported to your Store, by Others also Acting in their Own such Interests. You Do your Thing, and Earn your Buck or Pound. And Go to your Store with such, -Acquire such Food, -Satisfying that Part of your Survival Needs! On and On it Goes! I'll let this Food Example Alone Suffice.

This is Survival Too! This "Non-Survival" type of Survival, is the Glorified, Roundabout, Indirect, Normal Everyday Life sort of "Societal" Survival that I am talking about. It's a Glorified Such!, but Still a Sort of Survival All the Same!

So How Do we typically Go About Doing that?!

Even "Non-Survivors" so Survive!

(The Most Pacifistic Persons in the World!, are Still at Every Moment Fighting a Raging Battle and War!, -How? -Via their Immune System! Quite Ironic! But it's Evermuch So!),

Even Non-Survivors so Survive! -Via this Societal, Economic, Roundabout, and Glorified Form!

A Dancer, via His or Her Talent and Training, and a certain Demand or Market Out there for Their Talent, -Goes Forth Doing that Talent and Love of Their's, Earns Money for It, and then "Store Survives"! It's Still Survival, if it also is Much Non-Survival!

They Run into Trouble!, When the Normal Rug of their Survival Means, Gets occassionally Yanked Out from Under their Feet!

Then it Comes Down to Real Survival! Directly via, and In Accord With, -Nature and it's Elements!

Society Largely has Gotten Cut Off from Nature and the Land!

It'd Do them Well to Get Back into some Basic Touch with it! And Watching a Cat!, is a Good Way to Get some Idea of This! -A Good Way to Start!

It's like those many Country Power Outtages I Experienced when Younger, at the New House my Family Moved into! So What Do you Do when the Power Goes Out?! When the Well Runs Dry?! When the Normal (Societal) Survival Rug gets Pulled Out from Under your Feet?! When *Life's* such Power Outages may Occur!?

I Realize that Life Overall is More than just Survival Alone! We Live to Live! Not just Survive! Life is in the Living! We Dine!, Not just Merely Intake Food! Dining in Life!, while it's certainly In Part such Intake of Food, -is Also Something So Much More! Man Does Not Live by Bread Alone! Etc, Etc! I Do Beleive All of This!

But in Order to Live!, Indeed as a Part of Much of our Living, -We Must First Survive! It's just So Much of the Very Base upon which we Stand!

So I Think that People and Society in General, Shud Get Back in Touch!, with this Awareness!

Stores, Gas Stations, The Roads we Drive, -These are All Examples of our "Survival by Other Means", -Sort of "Power" that could Go Out! -"Extended Survival" This "Extended Form" of Survival is of course Not All It! But it's Slightly Deeper Survival Structure can be Looked At, For Insights into the Real, *Non* Extended Varieties of Survival! For such Times as One's "Extended Survival Power", May Suffer an Outtage!

So How Do we Do This?!, via our Such Indirect Means? Just How Do we typically Go About Doing This?!

Since Many in Society are More Familiar with these More Indirect Means, -Over Direct Survival Means! -This Then may be a Good Place for some to Start! To Start Getting their All Round Survival Awareness Up! It can be a Good Exercise for us More Familiar with Direct Survival, too.

So How Do we Do It?! How Do you Do It?! How Does Society Do It?! The Economy?! How Does your Home Do It?! How Do the Locals in Other Parts of the World Do It?!How Does your Cat, Dog, or Other Pet Do It?!

How is It that All of These?, -Go About their Imperative Task of Survival?! Just How? It can Point a Lot of the Direction we Shud Take!, in Emergencies, Disasters, or in the Wild!

A Cat can be Quite Very Instructive in This! It can Serve as a Very Good Start!

(This is to People in General, Not only to joblot.)

[color:"black"] [/color] [email]joblot[/email]

Heck, I've just enjoyed trying to puzzle out Scott's long and convoluted posts in this whole thread.
You want barbecue sauce or Tabasco with that cat burger? <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I don't want to hear anyone tell me cat tastes like chicken!

Bountyhunter

I don´t think it´s strange to talk about animal welfare and fishing or hunting. Thinking about animal welfare is about respect for other creatures. That does not rule out eating meat. It just rules out senseless killing or cruelty. I think that some respect for animals is neccessary to preserve them.

Nah... more like squirrel <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh!, a rat with a bushy tail.

Yum, yum.

Bountyhunter

I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but I am afraid that all the dogs on the voyage were also shot, and buried. You will have to read the book to understand the situation. Although I am against senseless killing, I completely agree with his decision.

The crew had to abandon the ship and tow the three boats across the ice. There was a danger that at anytime the ice could split up underneath them, sending people and equipment in different directions and into the water. The crew had to be completely ready to abandon the flow and board the boats, something that would have been made much harder, had there been animals present.

It was not as if they had happily shot the animals and carried on, as before with all their comforts. They had all been forced to abandon any equipment not absolutely necessary including all their photos of family and a lot of the food of lesser value. The extra mouths also meant less food per person and extra water would have to be melted for the animals to drink. The crews blubber supplies were very low and they were often forced to eat snow for water.

I hope this sheds some light on the situation.

Amen, -You have said it Very Well!

I would Hate to *Have To* Do it too! But They *Had To!*

As such, they were Not Senseless or Pure Out Cold Blooded Killings. But Rather Very / Perfectly Sense-IBLE, Decisions, in their No Choice Circumstances!

I Think that as Much Resulting Meat / Food Value, Shud Have been Made Use of!, as an Additional Way of Stretching and Conserving Food Supplies.

But from What you and some Others have said in this Thread, -This could have Equalled Too Much Weight and Bulk, to be Carrying! Someone as Shackleton wouldn't have been so Stupid, as to just Let All that Good Food Go to Waste!, for No Good and Pressing Reason!

Heck, This Reminds me of something else! From the Aviation Part of my "Overall Life Onion". -Which is that It's Heartbreaking the Things Balloonists have to sometimes Throw Overboard! -When they Find they've *Got To* Unload some Ballast!, and in a Hurry!

In Survival too!, Such "Weight and Balance" Considerations can be Entirely Life and Death Crucial!

"We Still Love you!, Petty, -But we Just CAN'T Take or Feed you! Thats just the Way it Is!"

In such No Choice / Hard Choice Situations, It could be Best to, in Addition to your Means of killing your Animals being a Quick, Humane death, Go even a Further such Step. This is that this Neccessarily Unfortunate Task could perhaps be Done when a Given Animal is Sleeping.

Finally, I am a Person who's Posted something about the Additional Dogs. But that's Minor and Beside much of the Immeadiate Point. Just said by way of Mention.

I'm probably at least as Foggy on this as you may be. You may also Know Well More on that particular Point.

But in a Recent Shackleton Documentary that I Viewed, (Might Not be the One we're typically Talking About), I Definitely Heard Mention of this, -How They Ended Up *Having To* kill a Lot of their Sled Dogs.

It was a Case of Regrettably *Having To* Do What they Did! NOT of Unneccessarily / Senselessly Doing Wanton, Cold Blooded, or even Bloodthirsty killing of their Animals for it's Own Sake! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ditchfield[/email]