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#252901 - 11/05/12 06:43 PM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: MDinana]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1419
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Electric space heater and battery backup? Probably safer than running a combustion-type heater, or a generator, indoors.

Run the generator (or solar, wind, etc) to power the batteries, then use them as your power source. Something I confess I haven't looked at, but I do have the space heater.


An electric space heater is extremely inefficient method to use with an inverter and batteries. If you had a 1000 watt 120 volt heater plugged into a 12 volt > 120 volt inverter then run it for about 10 minutes, you would be using about 85 amps of power from your batteries. The amount of batteries and recharging system and time required to maintain these batteries to run a space heater for any nominal length of time would be far in excess of the cost of a decent mid sized generator.
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#252912 - 11/05/12 09:41 PM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: dougwalkabout]
LED Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 1474
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout

I have been messing with a Mr. Heater "Portable Buddy" heater. Runs on propane -- either the 1 lb. camping type or a 5-20 lb. refillable tank (long adapter hose lets you put the tank outside -- much safer). It's a radiant heater, 4000/8000 btu, catalytic burner, safety guard on the front, and a low oxygen sensor. Pretty safe with adequate ventilation and doesn't need much clearance.



I've been looking at those for camping and home emergency use. What kind of runtime do you get (on low) with 1 lb. tank? Are you satisfied with the amount of heat it puts out?

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#252920 - 11/05/12 10:40 PM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: LED]
Mark_M Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 295
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: LED
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout

I have been messing with a Mr. Heater "Portable Buddy" heater. Runs on propane -- either the 1 lb. camping type or a 5-20 lb. refillable tank (long adapter hose lets you put the tank outside -- much safer). It's a radiant heater, 4000/8000 btu, catalytic burner, safety guard on the front, and a low oxygen sensor. Pretty safe with adequate ventilation and doesn't need much clearance.


I've been looking at those for camping and home emergency use. What kind of runtime do you get (on low) with 1 lb. tank? Are you satisfied with the amount of heat it puts out?


According to the Mr Heater manual the 4000/8000 unit will run 6 hours at 4000 BTU or 3 hours at 8000 BTU from 16oz propane. This works out to 5 days of 24x7 operation on low.

I have been using a Mr. Heater 4000/8000 BTU heater set at low temperature for an average of about 15 hours/day since Tuesday on the same 20# propane tank, which wasn't completely full when I started.

Though the tank gauge now indicates empty the heater is still running. I am using it to heat my garage, 12'x25'x7' and it does a decent job of keeping the temperature warm enough so my hands don't get too cold to spin wrenches or type on the keyboard. I'm very satisfied and would consider buying another for future emergencies.
_________________________
2010 Jeep JKU Rubicon | 35" KM2 & 4" Lift | Skids | Winch | Recovery Gear | More ...
'13 Wheeling: 8 Camping: 6 | "The trail was rated 5+ and our rigs were -1" -Evan@LIORClub

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#252931 - 11/06/12 03:06 AM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: Teslinhiker]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
An electric space heater is extremely inefficient method to use with an inverter and batteries. If you had a 1000 watt 120 volt heater plugged into a 12 volt > 120 volt inverter then run it for about 10 minutes, you would be using about 85 amps of power from your batteries. The amount of batteries and recharging system and time required to maintain these batteries to run a space heater for any nominal length of time would be far in excess of the cost of a decent mid sized generator.


Generators aren't very efficient either if being used for internal heating. The smaller portable generator sets i.e. 2KVA will typically have a thermal efficiency of 400-500 ml per KWhr. i.e. about 20-25% as petrol has a energy density of around 34.8 MJ/L. So running a generator outside a building to power an electrical internal panel or oil heater is wasting a considerable amount of heat i.e. 75-80% of the energy in the Gasoline/petrol is being wasted.

Burning hydrocarbons within the property is the way to go to maximize the efficiency of the fuel. The main worry is CO and CO2 production and O2 depletion. So good ventilation is required and so is an efficient burner with the appropriate safety features. LGP or Propane would be preferred as burning the longer chain hydrocarbon will potentially result in much higher CO production. A CO detector is an important requirement as well as Flame Failure safety and O2 depletion safety devices.

I personally would not use liquid hydrocarbons fuel due to their inherent spillage dangers within a property. Gasoline/petrol requires very careful handling indeed.

Generators are best left for tasks such as lighting, electronics, communications, refrigeration and electrical motors, pumps etc.

Considering the numbers using petrol generators in the current New York area crisis there must have been a number of Self-immolations. But there doesn't appear to be any media reports for these tragedies so far.




Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/06/12 03:07 AM)

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#252932 - 11/06/12 03:29 AM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1419
Loc: Nothern Ontario
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor


Generators aren't very efficient either if being used for internal heating. The smaller portable generator sets i.e. 2KVA will typically have a thermal efficiency of 400-500 ml per KWhr. i.e. about 20-25% as petrol has a energy density of around 34.8 MJ/L. So running a generator outside a building to power an electrical internal panel or oil heater is wasting a considerable amount of heat i.e. 75-80% of the energy in the Gasoline/petrol is being wasted.


When people are cold, tired, miserable from living through a week with no power as some still are in NJ and NY, I would suspect that the last thing they are going to worry about is the energy density, thermal efficiency and KWhr comparisons of generators even if it is to only run a heater. If you were to offer a generator to any of these people right now, I sure there would be no shortage of takers...
_________________________
Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

John Lubbock

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#252937 - 11/06/12 04:23 AM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: Teslinhiker]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
When people are cold, tired, miserable from living through a week with no power as some still are in NJ and NY, I would suspect that the last thing they are going to worry about is the energy density, thermal efficiency and KWhr comparisons of generators even if it is to only run a heater. If you were to offer a generator to any of these people right now, I sure there would be no shortage of takers...


Yes that is very true, but efficiency is very important in regard for preparation for such events.

For example lets assume the requirement is to boil water and there are the following solutions for the task.

i) A camp or domestic type butane/propane gas burner with a high efficiency heat exchanger base type kettle which has 80% efficiency.

or

ii) A 2KW generator powering a conventional cooker electric hot plate and pot which has 22% (gasoline to electrical energy conversion) and 70% (electrical hotplate to water heat transfer) giving 15.4% efficiency.

If you are now using say a 15Kg LPG bottle the equivalent Petrol/gasoline energy requirement equivalent would require approx 78Kg or 100 litres. i.e. 26.4 US Gallons. (lots of standing in line in the petrol lines)







Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (11/06/12 04:25 AM)

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#252938 - 11/06/12 04:27 AM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Mark_M Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/19/09
Posts: 295
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Considering the numbers using petrol generators in the current New York area crisis there must have been a number of Self-immolations. But there doesn't appear to be any media reports for these tragedies so far.


The info I have from friends on local Fire and Rescue teams and in hospitals is that these incidents are occurring but are typically not fatal (at least not in statistically-significant numbers) and aren't reflected in the storm statistics. On top of which, most modern generator designs do a pretty good job of shielding any potential fuel spill from the hot components.

Right now the bigger problem is CO poisoning. Though modern construction codes require measures to prevent infiltration of CO/CO2 from the garage to inside living spaces, (typically a well-sealed steel door and at least 6" increase in floor height transitioning from garage to living spaces), most are pre-code construction without these measures. There are also incidents where generators were placed too close to open windows, and of course inadequate ventilation using gas heaters or even stove burners for heat.
_________________________
2010 Jeep JKU Rubicon | 35" KM2 & 4" Lift | Skids | Winch | Recovery Gear | More ...
'13 Wheeling: 8 Camping: 6 | "The trail was rated 5+ and our rigs were -1" -Evan@LIORClub

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#252942 - 11/06/12 04:49 AM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078

Came across this screen saver as well.

http://download.cnet.com/Free-Fire-Screensaver/3000-2257_4-10627791.html

It might not produce any actual backup home heat but it might be useful running it on a Laptop computer at the end of the bed whilst getting cozy under the duvet... wink

You can even set your desktop background to anything that you want to Burn!! laugh

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#252945 - 11/06/12 05:00 AM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: thseng]
Ironwood Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 87
I have three small children here in a 1300 sq foot house. We have emergency woodstove backup heat. You can build a protective surround out of recycled porch railings (I found some at a local used building material outlet). You can keep all the pellets, compressed wood, blah blah blah. I can go outside and with my "pioneer tools" chop/saw/machette a tree down and have heat (furniture burns too!) and I also have several thousand board feet of dried wood in/around my woodshop. I like low tech.

Good advice on chimney, HEED that warning, and dont skimp on ANYTHING to do with safety. I have been heating with wood for 30 years (since I was 14 in my Mom's garage washing salty cars for the nieghbor's) with woodstoves.

Ironwood


Edited by Ironwood (11/07/12 02:33 AM)

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#252952 - 11/06/12 11:57 AM Re: Backup Home Heat [Re: Teslinhiker]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Teslinhiker
Originally Posted By: LesSnyder
if you are looking into a portable kerosene heater, like I commented to Jackie, this site was very helpful... make sure you have 1-K available at a good price
http://www.milesstair.com/


Bacpac lives in Canada and up here kerosene is prohibitively expensive to use even as an emergency heating fuel. I could not imagine the cost implications if someone up here had to run on kerosene for the same length of time and under the same circumstances as what is occurring in NJ and NY right now...



Cost is an issue, certainly, but I haven't done the research on keosene. Thanks for the heads up Teslinhiker. I've heard a lot about the Mr. Heater Buddy the last week. It gets really good reviews from those who use it. We're still at the start of this mission so all suggestions are welcome! Honestly, a wood or pellet stove would be my first choice, but it's a tough option to exercise in a condo townhouse.
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