Take your tall masted ship for a sail...

We were just talking about that,DUMMIES!

On a serious note,2 missing,now thats bad!

A report from a CG helo pilot said they lost rudder control. And they had 2 helos and a C-130 looking for the missing.

Apparently, the last words heard before they struck out was "Hey Joe, you said the weathers gonna be clear over the next couple of days right?"

Whoever thought taking an 1800's ship out to sea right into the path of an on-coming hurricane should be force to walk the plank...

Arrrr.....

But, it's just a small storm...

amazing that they were able to find 16 people stupid enough to go to sea in a sail boat that are simultaneously smart enough to operate a sail boat.

One of the missing has been found, but is unresponsive.

OK, first, it's not an 1800's ship - it's the HMS Bounty from the 1962 movie "Mutiny on the Bounty." So, it's a relatively modern, replica, ship.

Second, most ships go to sea, vs staying in port, during a hurricane. Slamming ships into those big, non-moving things called continents tend to do more damage than the big sloshy thing.

Could they have picked a better route? Probably. Or maybe just kept it in port, anchored somewhere? I'm sure there will be all sorts of questions afterwards.

(this is meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but I have a feeling it's coming off as sarcastic/rude. Sorry)

I would recommend reserving judgment until a bit more is known about the circumstances......

+1

Resorting to using such words as "dummies", "stupid" etc is amateurish and smacks of a vulgar smugness from some people here which is disappointing to say the least. Also you may never know that visitors who find this forum, may be one of the families or friends who lost one of their loved ones on that ship and are seeking answers. For them to see these posts with rude and uneducated, unresearched responses, really does a disservice to not only this forum but also the vast majority of good people here and above all, tarnishes Doug Ritter's great efforts to make our world safer.

I too am humbled by the exhaustive research and discerning expert analysis in this thread. It is truly a wonder to behold.

Sorry,but this has been known for a while the storm was coming.

I remember as a kid being in a sailboat in a storm on Lake Erie,it was a life and death situation and no sailor worth his salt would ever knowingly venture into one.

Fortunately my Father WAS a very good sailor and the boat involved was built and owned previously by a former Coast Guard Commander,a very seaworthy vessel.

I will stick with very poor choice and NOT a smart move,you wont ever catch me venturing out to sea in a KNOWN storm in any circumstance.

A reason for the expression,ANY PORT IN A STORM.

Very poor judgement,sorry,it was.Being PC or sympathetic wont change my opinion on it.Extremely poor choice IMO.

As for those who died,a terrible tragedy,nobody is downplaying that.

But Im glad I wasnt sailing with them.They blew it.

And it rates right up there with the fools (YES,FOOLS) who drive through flooded roadways / BARRIERS for crying out loud and get swept away....constantly,and those who wont evacuate inland when a storm is bearing down and evacuations are called (Katrina,they HAD options,made poor choices),or those who ignore the fire evacuations and get burned to death.

Some people just make extremely bad life and death choices,nothing new,and will never change.And that includes Sailors too.

That was a 180' ship, not a small boat, and 16 people aboard sounds like a bare-minimum crew even for a modern automated ship.

And large ships do not seek port in a hurricane's path. They'll just be beaten to pieces against the dock and then deposited inland. Even scuttling it in port ahead of time planning on salvage later seems wishful thinking, although I think it's done as a last resort sometimes.

The ship left port last Thursday to void the storm. I haven't seen mention of when the critical equipment failure (steering?) occurred. SOS was Sunday evening. Not clear when ship was abandoned.

I have an extensive background in Mountain SAR (somewhere more than 400 operations) and in accident/incident investigation during my career in the NPS. One thing has been evident with startling clarity - don't leap to conclusions before all the facts have been obtained and you have a clear understanding of the background and context in which the incident developed. This is something that requires a bit of investigation; the necessary information is often not evident even when you are present at the operation. It is certainly not available from immediate news reports.

Rushing to judgment and bandying about language like "fools" is premature and hasty, to say the least. This kind of thing occurs all the time in the usual internet forum, but one can hope that ETS is a bit smarter and more sophisticated. As Teslinhiker eloquently points out, it would be best to hold off on name calling until we clearly understand the situation.

The whole point of discussing tragedies of this sort is to learn from them; without thoughtful, thorough analysis, that is impossible.

Note that forecasting the path of a hurricane is uncertain at best.

Note that this ship is considerably slower than cruise liners.

Put the two together and things were probably a LOT less clear-cut than the uninvolved think.

At least she didn't go down with all hands. (And God Bless the Coast Guard!)

My own opinion, take it for what it's worth. Better to lose the ship in port than the crew at sea. In 1994, If I recall, my family and I drove to the Florida panhandle for a weeks vacation.(we lived in Georgia at the time.) We got unpacked at our condo and I turned on the tv. A cat 1 hurricane had formed in the gulf and was headed right for us. I didn't hesitate. We put everything back in the car and drove to Tallahasse for the night. The hurricane passed over the panhandle that night and moved up into Georgia. We drove back to Mexico Beach the next morning. Had a great vacation.

Quite possibly the best post I've seen on any forum.

Alright - I'll concede that I didn't know it actually had it's own engines and had been modernized. I'm in no way a sailor, and wouldn't ever claim to be an expert on any of this stuff.

My deepest sympathies for the families and friends of the two who did not make it. At the time of my post, it sounded fairly promising they were close to getting all the crew to safety.

I think it was a case of poor risk assessment. I understand it's fairly common practice to take ship out of port when a strong storm is coming.

As I see it, there were two scenario's here...

#1 - Leave the boat tied up.. Risk - it might get damaged but I would think that at worst sink in shallow water. No lives put at risk.

#2 - Take her out, ride out the storm and hope everything goes well and come back with a heck of a story. Risk - The boat going down in deep water, forcing a SAR mission, risking the crew and the SAR team's lives as they try to pluck you from the waters.

It's too bad it turned out the way it did, the crew looked VERY shaken up.

So sorry to hear about the ship's crew members.


What not to do?


1) Don't believe everything you hear.

In the chaos of a disaster, even authoritative sources can be misinforming. One apartment building was told they'd have the water running again ASAP, only to find that "soon" was much later than anticipated. At the earler news, several people had emptied their bathtubs of water -- which apparently was their only emergency supply.


2) Don't go outside if you can help it.

Several people lost their lives due to falling trees/debris and at least one unfortunate person got electrocuted by stepping into water.



3) Don't give in to anxiety or despair. Disasters can really bring out the best in people -- even hard-nosed city folk.



Thoughts and prayers go out to those living in the affected areas....

The HMS Bounty that just sank was built for the 1962 movie and was a more modern ship that looked like one built in the 18th century. The original HMS Bounty was burned/scuttled off Pitcairn Island (South Pacific) following the mutiny of its crew. There's a third Bounty built for another movie.

It is important to know what the crew thought they knew before making judgments regarding their judgment. You don't know what you don't know.

Here is what was known

That is a WOODEN sailing ship,it doesnt matter if it was built yesterday,a 180 foot wooden ship gets tossed about the sea like a rubber ducky.History is replete with hundreds,if not thousands of ships THAT SIZE and/or type sunk in Atlantic Storms.

A 180 foot wood boat has NO BUSINESS being sailed INTO a hurricane,PERIOD.Yet this one was. That was NOT a wise decision.How do I KNOW this? It was SUNK and people were KILLED. Like hundreds of others have been.

The storm had already killed 70 people ON LAND

They (Company and Captain) had DAYS warning and DAYS to take action KNOWING the KILLER storm was heading up the Atlantic coast.That boat belonged in PORT (See 2 ships below if you doubt it),not at sea.

There was a MANAGEMENT failure,How do I KNOW this? The ship was SUNK and people were KILLED.That is not a management success.That was not an act of God.It was a PEOPLE failure,a failure of poor decisions.

They were sent to sea by someone,and the Captain of the ship IS RESPONSIBLE for the safety of all aboard the ship,thats the way it works.If the CAPTAIN is asleep,it does not matter . The CAPTAIN is responsible for the ship,period.So says the Navy man.Who had that FACT pounded into his head.

Who made a smart choice,and who made a poor choice??
--------------------
A tale of 2 small ships

Tracie Simonin, director of the HMS Bounty Organization, said that the ship left Connecticut last week bound for Florida (STRAIGHT INTO THE STORM) and was in contact with the National Hurricane Center as it tried to skirt the massive storm barreling up the East Coast.

Two US Coast Guard helicopters rescued 14 of the ship’s 16 crew members early Monday morning. The Coast Guard is still searching for the two missing crew (We KNOW at least one dead), a service spokesman said.
-------------
Powerful storm surges from Superstorm Sandy caused a nearly 170-foot water tanker to run aground in Staten Island, N.Y., on Monday night.

The front third of the tanker is grounded into Front Street. The city's waterfront was largely destroyed, which includes a number of businesses on the water.

The 168-foot tanker was moored about a mile away when Sandy's powerful force propelled it toward land.

No one was on the tanker and no one was hurt as a result of it running aground.

All I can say is that Rescue Swimmer better get a promotion and a nice shiny medal. 14 people in one op?? Out- freaking - standing.

Gotta hand it to the Coast Guard,they are exceptional!

I have seen no evidence it sailed into or towards the hurricane.

It was heading south to a port in Florida out of the way of wherever the storm might go. At some point there was a major failure (steering casualty?) and the ship could not proceed.

At that point the questions were (1) could the failure(s) be repaired, (2) would the storm skirt close enough to threaten the ship? If No and Yes then the Captain would have to abandon ship once it was clear #1 would not happen before #2. I've seen no information as to how long they spent trying to effect repairs but they were apparently in communication at this time.

It's worth remembering that the forecast track of the storm changed substantially over the weekend. The planned course may have been well east of the forecast storm track when the ship departed. Having a storm change track into your stranded location is not the same as sailing towards a location the storm is known to be approaching.


One other thing to consider is that staying in port may not have been an option. The Harbor Master may have ordered larger ships out to sea. Wildman probably knows the rules here much better than the rest of us.

Interesting, the Harbor Master can make a final call such that the captain has no say? In this case, at least one person died after a ship headed out into a hurricane. I'm sure this is not the first case. So, we have precedence here indicating people's lives are at stake. I'm thinking the captain has got to have the final say, given the captain is responsible for the safety of all aboard. I'd like to know how this really works.

That is a WOODEN sailing ship,it doesnt matter if it was built yesterday,a 180 foot wooden ship gets tossed about the sea like a rubber ducky.History is replete with hundreds,if not thousands of ships THAT SIZE and/or type sunk in Atlantic Storms.

A 180 foot wood boat has NO BUSINESS being sailed INTO a hurricane,PERIOD.Yet this one was. That was NOT a wise decision.How do I KNOW this? It was SUNK and people were KILLED.

This is the first ever statement I have encountered suggesting that wooden ships are inherently unsafe vis--a-vis ships of other construction, like presumably plastic laminates and metal -steel, iron, and/or aluminum. Now really! A lot of wooden ships have sunk - true enough - but the fact that even more of them have been built over the years may have something to do with that.

During the years I was an archaeologist at Channel Islands National Park, a good bit of my work involved the study of the vessels that wrecked in and around the islands over the years. They were of all types - wood (mostly west coast lumber schooners), metal (iron, steel, and aluminum) typically of later vintage. They were also of all sizes - smallish fishing vessels and large commercial vessels. I have never seen or heard of anyone proposing or providing any data that would support the notion that any type of construction was inherently more or less "safe" than any other. Like aircraft, automobiles, and many other conveyances, the principal cause of wrecks and accidents can be attributed to operator error.

Others are posting some interesting information that does not square with your conclusions. Some of your assertions are questionable. Florida suffered negligible to minor impact from this storm, and, indeed, might have offered shelter from Sandy.

Aim, then fire...Your considerable energy would be better spent in careful and thorough investigation of the situations, rather than in emotional rants.

It is doubtless gratifying to point out the failing of others, but when you do so without adequate investigation and research, you come to erroneous, flawed conclusions. This perpetuates myth and stereotype, and does no one any good.

For reports I read online (and yes, I admit the info is possibly incorrect), it appears steering went out, then some somehow the pumps weren't able to keep up with the water. Sounds like 2 or 3 were swept overboard, then the rest of the crew went to life rafts. 1 of the overboard managed to get to a raft. The other 2 didn't. Last I read, 1 body was recovered.

Ok Hiker,you win.Im obviously a mean hateful person insensitive of someones feelings and the decisions they made that KILLED.

It was a brilliant plan,in a very safe wooden ship and alls well that ends well.We all know wooden sailing ships are as safe as modern steel diesel powered ships.Cant argue with that.

Sorry,but in my business I make life or death decisions that can affect you,your wife,husband,Mom,Dad all the time.

I make them Quickly,I dont dawdle.I base them on what is before me and on historical knowledge.And its often without all the facts I'd like,but I do it.Based on what IS known.

I do it all the time so people dont die,and they DONT.

Now if your experience doesnt involve doing same,you wont grasp how others can/do make JUDGEMENT calls all the time as a matter of course.

Here's one,X took an order,and screwed it up by a factor of TEN.

Went straight to my boss,called in BIG BOSS,order was NOT FOLLOWED and cancelled on the spot by me,why? Because it could have KILLED that person.

What did Big Boss say when I said How can someone do such a thing?

Reply-X IS STUPID.Thats a quote.

We didnt have the luxury of delaying,nor was it sent off to a committee to do a 6 month investigation,X was OUTTA THERE!

Or I could just say Kum by ya (I dont know what X was thinking,poor thing),let it ride for 3 days,let someone DIE and let it go.

Your choice.

Me,I can call a spade a spade and see the obvious,and act on it.And stand by it.

And people dont die because I do.

And thats how lives get saved,and lost.

Now Im done with it.

Well said!

I totally agree. We should be here at ETS to learn and educate, not judge and condem. Personally, and as a member of ETS, it makes it uncomfortable and, frankly, embarassed. There has got to be a more respectful way to conduct a post-event analysis.

It is doubtful that anything we learn after the fact will make much difference to the way people perceive this.

One story I read suggested the reason they set sail into potential danger was because they had a contract to be in FL in a few weeks. It seems possible that the perceived need to be somewhere to fulfill that contract may have led them to think this was a good idea.

It is also quite possible that having a good deal of experience and skills in sailing they figured they were good enough to make it through regardless of the weather. It is not unusual for people who either have or think they have special skills and/or knowledge to be willing to take on unnecessary risks because they think their skill and experience will get them through if something goes wrong.

Perhaps a combination of both these factors (and possibly many others) along with mechanical difficulties proved to be their undoing. It is doubtful we will ever know with any real certainty.

Incidentally, something I read elsewhere said there were two Coast Guard choppers involved, several hours apart. That kind of makes sense as I suspect getting 14 people into a single CG copter might not be possible.

Without a steerage failure Bounty may have made it to Florida and been a non-event.

So Bob,youre reading it was at sea to fulfill a contract (I'd like to read that if you can link),a management failure......Just as I figured.

Im reading from a Captain on the ship he questions why wasnt she moored.Just as I 'prematurely' questioned it,the basic seamanship.

Sounds like some decisions were made that the former Captain thinks werent wise.

Hmmmm......questions why she was at sea says the former Captain who spent 28 years aboard her? Thanks Captain Boyd for backing me up on that.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the 18 foot seas and 40 mph winds had something to do with the damage to the rudder thats been reported.When that occured is known,and no doubt we will hear soon as survivors start recounting their experiences.

------------------------
http://www.tampabay.com/news/weather/hur...ll-ship/1258884

In his 28 years aboard the Bounty, Boyd abandoned ship only once.

It was 1965. He hadn't seen his wife in a year.........

Boyd questioned why the ship had been at sea in such terrible conditions, noting it may have been wiser to moor near a land barrier.
--------------------------
And this....

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/Coast...-176228331.html

The Bounty's last position was about 160 miles from Hurricane Sandy's eye. Officials say the ship started taking on water in 18-foot waves and 40 mile per hour winds off the North Carolina coast.

OK,no verification can I find of rudder damage but what was posted here, but lots on her condition.

Had 10 feet water aboard and taking on 2 feet/hour in the end.

She was known as quite a leaky vessel.

The following sites are great for learning about Bounty and tall ships with comments from those who sail them to those who have been aboard and/or sailed Bounty.

They will discuss sailing,decisions,condition of Bounty,where she was located and why many said she should not have been there. How wooden ships leak,how they are stressed in weather.

Message from Ms Christian before voyage,her fears going out and ships condition. Just all kinds of information.They talk of the 2 tall ships that left port that day,and where is the other?60 miles North,in Portland,hauled out of the sea onto land.Much relief at that news.

First is wooden boats site.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.p...c525c48832fba80


This man predicted it was in danger on the 27th,2 days before the sinking,but his post was moderated about what he thought of Captain and decision when you read it,so i will only include this on post #7 thats still there now and x out the other explicit comments.


---------------------
Default Re: HMS Bounty and Hurricane Sandy

He is sailing down wind into the big drop off of the shelf with a northly flow of current. The winds are in and around north by northeast 40 knots right now and the bulk of the weather has not reached the point of the banks yet . xxxx xxxxx xxxxx xxxxx.....The bouy off of Hatteras is reporting 24 foot seas right now with the center of the storm still south.
--------------------

Lets just say he said he didnt agree with Captain.And his fears of them making it at all.2 days before she sank

========================
It progresses through to the sinking,posting positions in real time from GPS.Gets real interesting when they are talking about the geographical area of Cape Hatteras and what a known danger that is to sailing ships,how their options are decreasing... then,how they are in real danger there,why are they there?????....then....News of trouble and the sinking.

Very terrible story of the voyage.Being posted in real time.

The next site is this.

http://gcaptain.com/forum/professional-mariner-forum/10134-hms-bounty-hurricane-sandy.html
----------------
Now beware,this site is about and by professional sailors and they are tough men,they dont pull punches and they talk like,well,sailors.

They too have their stories to tell,more on what the ship was about (construction of wooden ships)and how they fail in rough seas and a few videos of the Captain.Comments about chasing hurricanes and how exhilarating that is.That really concerned these men.

These Captains on down to deckhands have a lot to say.And are qualified to say it,its what they do professionally.

To read both threads and links will take 6 hours and give you quite an education,along with things like CG regulations,licensing,seamanship,the sailing ship industry,and their opinions and why about Bounty's seaworthiness.

Soooo.... if you want to know what the pros think of the disaster of HMS Bounty,and learn an awful lot about sailing,those links will do it.