Ive chosen military med. alice packs for my wife and I. I've loaded more in my bag than hers but I feel as if there could be more to my pack for as heavy as the dang thing is! With an additional USAF fanny pack attached, its heavy. And I havent filled the canteens nor added ammo nor sleeping bag. I can carry it but man it just doesnt have everything I feel I need. Plus add water and some 22 ammo...ugh

Is the med ALICE pack a poor choice? I know about blending in with mil gear being counterproductive to getting out unnoticed but I planned on using bag covers.

I'm interested in what bags you folks have success with. Being a retired Veteran, I tend to automatically think/lean towards mil gear.

I'd love to hear what you folk can recomment!

Faith & Friendship
Pooly

The advantage to milsurp like ALICE is that it's very inexpensive and rugged, but there are certainly more comfortable civilian packs out there. Military surplus is still the best bang for your buck in my opinion though.

I use the "Hellcat" modification for the ALICE pack, which basically replaces the stock shoulder straps and kidney pad with the MOLLE straps and kidney pad, and it makes a world of difference in comfort IMO.

It also involves strapping the Molle MSS carrier to the bottom of the pack and frame, which can be used for your sleeping bag (when loaded it doesn't flop around or bounce off your butt).

Weight does add up fast though!

When I was a starving college student, milsurp gear got me into the outdooors, but over time I replaced it with far, far better civilian gear. Military gear today is much better than in my youth, but so is the civilian gear.

Fit is all important with a backpack, and most high end civilian packs have some pretty sophisticated adjustments, coming with a surprisingly thick manual. Get thee hence to a good outdoor store (REI or better), rent some good stuff, and take it out on some long trips, not just overnight, before you make the major purchase. You can also borrow from friends.

Most people don't devote the time and effort to this, and most people walk around with ill fitting backpacks.

The kindest thing I can say about your Alice rig is that it is obsolete. It belongs in a museum, not on your back.

BTW, I followed this route some years ago, renting a large Mountainsmith rig from A16 in Los Angeles, taking it out for an intensive weekend trip. Twenty years later, that pack has seen intensive, hard use, and is still in service. Mountainsmith is just one of several quality brands; it is the fit of the pack to your individual bod that counts, not the brand name.

Greetings! I am also using the Medium Alice pack and my harness. I prefer the rugged capability and thus suffer with the weight factor.

I do agree with those comments listed before me although I haven't heard of, and thus haven't looked at the Molle modification. That does sound promising.

I am slowly moving gear from my Alice Pack to my harness, keeping lighter gear that I can live without in my pack. I am keeping more important items (to me anyway) in my combat harness.

Alice Pack: Food, Toilet Paper, OTC meds, sleeping bag, sleeping pad (Very important in winter), tent, extra set of clothing, small machete, etc.

Combat Harness: Compass, magnesium firestarter, pocket knife, bayonet, ammo, pistol, 2-1qt canteens, mess kit (Trangia), tender bag, weps cleaning kit, FAK, Pocho, Poncho Liner, and a couple of miscellaneous items.

I think I need to get a modern civilian back pack which would fit and ride better but I still like distributing the load between the Harness and Pack for reasons that you would understand but a civilian would not necessarily understand the reasoning of.

I'm am keeping the food supplies as light as possible, mixing modern freeze dried rations with old standby's: MRE's, Freeze dried, varieties of Jerky, instant foods like grits, cheese, crackers, trail mixes, etc.

I had to carry a large ALICE pack in the Army. I found that it pinched my back and caused my legs to tingle. The problem with the ALICE frame is that it is designed to fit the "average" person, probably someone about 5ft 9 or 10. On someone 6ft 2 it rides too high on the back.

The ALICE also hangs far away from the back when loaded, which is undesireable, it makes you feel like you are being pulled backwards.

The mil surplus prices are appealing but if the pack doesn't fit, there is a price to pay in comfort, or lack of comfort. If you think you are going to be carrying the pack for any length of time and distance, you may want to shop around for a good civilian pack. Kelty makes some very comfortable packs that ate reasonably priced, there are other brands as well.

I helps to get out and carry a pack around like on dayhikes. You will see how it rides and condition the body too.

Remember what the ALICE pack was made for, tactical operations. You can ditch it quickly, go into the prone position without the pack forcing you head into the dirt, and it is not expensive. A good hiking backpack should carry the weight higher and put more weight on the hips. I have a large ALICE that I have had for almost 30 years. I used it on many training and real world operations, including more than 1,000 jumps. It has had some repairs and slight modifications, but still going strong. There are newer frames for them which do ride better, made of composite plastics. You can also get better hip belts and padded shoulder straps. If you are thinking about taking better care of your back over long distances, the ALICE is probably not a good option.

LL Bean Bigelow is what I keep in my SUV and what I use for long summer day hikes, winter hikes and bikejoring.

I have a pack for more extensive backpacking (LL Bean White Mountain) but am more likely to throw it in my bike trailer for a multi-day journey than heft it on my back.

http://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/50495?fea...roductId=876415

My current bag for the BOB is based around a Karrimor SF Predator Tecmac 50 in coyote Tan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQmgIYh8vOY

Additional pouches are 2 Karrimor SF PLCE compatible side pouches and a Flyye Army Combat Versatile Shoulder Accessories Bag MOLLE Cordura Coyote Brown which attaches to the Molle Palls Webbing on the back of the Tecmac 50

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Karrimor-Sabre-P...mp;sr=1-1-fkmr2

A PLCE side pouch yoke will be carried to allow side pouches to become a lightweight Ruck as well.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Karrimor-SF-Yoke...mp;sr=1-1-fkmr2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Flyye-Versatile-...8356&sr=8-1

The Tecmac 50 doesn't have a padded waist belt as it is really designed to be use with a LBE kit such as PLCE webbing.

A PLCE webbing consists;

Main Yoke [NSN 8465-99-132-1560]
Quick-release Belt
Hip Pad/Hippo Pad
2 x Double Ammo Pouch [NSN 8465-99-132-1557]
1 x Utility Pouch (Pouch, Utility, DPM, IRR) [NSN 8465-99-132-1558]
Respirator Pouch (Haversack, Respirator, DPM, IRR) [NSN 8465-99-132-1559]

balancing out the load would 20-25lbs on the PLCE webbing and 30-40lbs on the Karrimor Predator when fully loaded. this setup is very modular as well. This will all de-construct to fit is a bright yellow BOB BOB trailer drybag

The Main problem with the ALICE is that when loaded you can't really stand up too straight without the pack wanting to pull you over on your back.

Probably best to
A) Ditch the ALICE in favor of something that fits (as has been mentioned)
B) Don't feel the need to fill every nook and cranny of a pack!
C) Hit the gym ... honestly, I carried a 60lbs pack over 10 days when I was 15 in Boy Scouts. Are you in that physical condition? I'm not anymore! How heavy IS your pack?
D) post what the heck you're carrying that's so bloody heavy.

I do well with a Camelbak Ranger I found on clearance in 2008. It looks like it's been totally discontinued now.

I think its mostly the pack and frame. I have a change of clothes (no extra shoes), compass, small crank radio, small tactical flashlight, plastic spade, military canteen with steel cup and mil flex 2 qt canteen, fire starting kit, mre and some rations, firstaid kit shemag, spare glasses/meds, toiletries, camp knife (paracord handle 10"), 100' paracord, water purification kit, harmonica, bath towel size cloth for blanket and towal use, poncho, tube tent, head flashlight, few extra batteries, 3 bandanas, gloves, and some other misc items such as small sportswatch & glow sticks etc.

To be honest, I'm that guy thats bought gear, read about it but havent had much inclination to use it, except for metal match practice.

Looks like Ive got some backyard camping to do

You might consider something else besides the miltary canteen cup. I love those and used one for decades until recently I weighed it and it was 9 ounces, by itself. That's pretty heavy. I replaced mine with an Olicamp anodized aluminum cup and a round nalgene bottle, that has no after taste. Just a small weight savings but every little bit helps.

Widget! Excellent suggestion, I never knew anything like that existed. Im locked and loaded to buy it off amazon for $14.53 (includes shipping) Is that a good price?

Even lighter than a Nalgene bottle is a recycled sport drink bottle -for me, typically a one quart Gatorade. I use them all the time with no problems, along with a sprinkling of Nalgenes where weight is not an issue.

Lightweight outdoor gear is a entirely separate all game, but there are a lot of useful options out there. Some are very expensive (light and warm sleeping bags), and others are stunningly cheap (alcohol stoves and water bottles).

Practice, practice, practice! You'll get proficient at using your stuff and find out their shortcomings. The you can either modify how you use it or replace it. The only way to really know is to get it dirty. :-)

Don't just stick to the backyard though. Take that pack, or whatever you choose as a replacement, on some good strenuous hikes. You'll get in better shape, figure out how to pack everything better and quickly figure out whether you need/want to ditch weight. You'll be amazed at the difference things like spade/no spade, or your militray canteen & cup vs nalgene & oilcamp cup vs Gatorade bottle & small cup make.

Excellent advice, BPJ. Nothing like doing. Will also gain a far better appreciation for what distance is doable in a day, flat hiking v. hills, etc.

I know that I can do 8.8 miles/2400-foot down-and-up in about five hours on a 90-degree humid day. Or five miles on a flat canal path in a leisurely couple hours.

By the way, I highly recommend adding a hiking pole to the mix. A collapsible one that you can hook to the pack. Because of a bum knee, I'm partial these days to one with a cane-like handle. Here's one at REI's outlet for $22:

http://www.rei.com/product/831555/komperdell-walker-trekking-pole-single-2011-closeout

There's no substitute for carrying your stuff and using it. You'll learn a LOT :-)

When I cut down my backpacking load from 48# to 33# the world changed for me for the better.

Frequent practice with your stuff also reduces the mental overhead load - that dread of "having to- " set up camp, light the stove, boil the water, etc These are things that start out being a big deal when you do them the first time but fade to unnoticeable effort with familiarity.

I also strongly suggest a good hiking stick/trekking pole. Mine has saved me from falls many times over the years just having something to stick out there for balance.

If the pack fits and you like it, use it.
If the pack weights to much that is your fault !
What do you really need, do some research on distance
backpacking for ideas.
Get ride of the canteen cups or at least one of them
as advised above. Perhaps just use a 11oz. ( remember when it was
1pound) coffee can, a nalgene wrapped with a bit of duct tape fits
perfectly. With a coffee can you have a cup and boiler for half
the weight of any SS option. The can is so handy I would add one
regardless.
Drop the bandanas and towel, you have a fancy dog rag already.
Why the spare clothes, socks sure but why the rest?
A spare sweater for sure and windbreaker, perhaps a pr.
of cammy scrub bottoms if you want pants when you wash your
clothes but how often will you do that, every two weeks or longer?
There really is very little difference between BOB and long distance
backpacking. The big differences really aren't!

Externals are still the way to go if you are dealing with very heavy loads or odd shaped, unwieldy loads (90 pound Columbian Mammoth mandible, anyone?). Properly fitted internals excel in brushy or rocky environments, or any situation where balance is critical (climbing or scrambling). If I had just one pack, I decided long ago that it would be an internal frame.

I still like my very old, late '70's Kelty Tioga pack. Made in the USA, excellent frame, straps and waistbelt and metal hardware. Very light and very convenient to pack. I am going to use it in a week or two for a short backpacking trip.

You can find the old Kelty's on eBay often for pretty cheap. Usually someone that stashed it for decades and finally decides to sell it. I see almost pristine ones on there occasionally.
There are newer models that are also well made but not as well made as the old USA Kelty's from the 70's and 80's.

I bought a Kelty frame pack in 1962. I used it extensively and it was stolen in 1980. If that hadn't happened, I would still be using it on occasion. I did retrofit it with a better hip belt sometime around 1975. Great rig.

The next time you need to carry a Mamoth mandible you should consider an Alaska Freighter Frame . They are much favored by Alaskan big game guides for hauling out meat, moose racks, and other brutally heavy and/or awkward loads. I believe they are only available from Barney's, a local outfit here in Anchorage. Barney's builds them to be totally indestructable. I have one that has served me well in the past. In my old age I don't do so much of that kind of heavy weight packing anymore so it doesn't get used very often these days.

I have no connection to Barney's, but I can recommend their gear.

Looking at a used kelty coyote, they seem to have good reviews. Also am making a waterbottle cup from a soupcan and a coathanger.

Thanks for the posts, Im going to reorganize my bag and then take it out for a hike and use my gear

Coyotes are good. I had one a loooong time ago. Classic.

I ruck pretty much every week, several times. Weight ranging from around 45-70 lbs. I use a GORUCK GR1 which is a internal type that is made by and for Special Operation teams. The other is a bigger external frame Eberlestock Warhammer. A hybrid between a 21st Century Alice Frame and a hauler like ASKAR mentioned above. Last month I rucked a small mountain in the Warhammer and I strapped two full 5 gallon round water jugs in the hauler area and still had the side pods full of gear, maybe 120 lbs. total.

I am still eyeballing my next pack and I can't decide if I want a Mystery Ranch 3 day assault pack or the Camelbak knock off called the TriZip. Camelbak is about 40% cheaper and uses the Mystery Ranch frame which is a Cadillac ride for an internal pack but the official MR packs have lifetime warranty's like my GR1. As I have already destroyed three other packs this year (5.11 24 Rush, REI something and a 3 day pack I picked up at clothing sales) having a life time warranty is key for me.

Impressive frame. Looks like a Kelty on steroids. I lieve we used a Camp Trails version - fortunately didn't have to pack very far.

My first real pack that I used for many years was a large alice on a Coleman Peak 1 external frame. I backpacked many miles with that beast, lol.

Check REI Outlet section for good deals on backpacks. Head to an REI and try on some packs (filled with sandbags) to get a feel for what you like. Then go online to try and find it cheaper or get last years model.

Some people have found that making a frame out of PVC pipe for their ALICE packs made a big difference. Google is your friend.

I have cut down on my pack weight by eliminating the pack.I use a bed roll swag style.I prefer bed rolls because sleeping bags make me feel to restricted.The straps of the bed roll form a loop that hangs on left shoulder across the back.A small duffle hangs from the loop over right shoulder to the front chest area.I also use web gear (for canteens,knife,poncho,FAK,etc.)in conjunction with this.The bed roll is a wool blanket,poncho liner,sportsmans space blanket,sleeping pad and a tarp rolled toghether.Ridge line tent stakes and the like is also in this.The duffle has cook kit food extra socks and other sundries in it.Extra clothes can be in here or in the bed roll.I am thinking of adding a hammock to this set up.If so the hanging straps for it will become the bed roll straps.Trying to multi pourpose as much as possible......

BOATMAN
John

Boatman, that sounds pretty interesting. Would you mind starting a thread on it?

MDinana,I will when i can.I am working on getting a digital camera.It makes it hard to covey ideas with out pictures.Old newspaper saying"picture worth a thousand words".....

BOATMAN
John

Very true. If I was still up in Royal Oak I'd meet up with you some weekend and check it out myself.

took it out or a 3 hr hike fully loaded except ammo and extra clothes. the shoulder straps dug into my collar bones even when I tightened them all the way and wrapped a bandanna around the hotspot.

A little after, it began to strain the neck muscles and between shoulder blades.

I had most of my gear minus tent, bag,pad,gun and ammo.
Tried it later empty and for an empty bag it still felt cumbersom.

Either gonna chop down my gear UGH, or get another bag

Greenghost,look up "hellcat" modification for the ALICE pack.It is a ALICE pack and frame with MOLLE straps and hip belt.It also replaces the metal buckles with Fastex ones.I have not tried this but have read of it on other forums.....

BOATMAN
John

One thing I found extremely helpful when I bought a new pack was having it fitted & adjusted by the sales girl at my local MEC. While she did do a great job at pointing me at a good bag for my needs at a good price, it was the fitting that I think makes the real difference.

They have bean bags or something that they use to load up the pack with weight and then go through all of the adjustments to ensure not only that you have a pack that is the right size for you (many come in different back lengths, for example), but that you leave the store with it set-up and ready to go. This includes finding the right shoulder point adjustments, etc.

If you do end up looking for a new pack, I'd highly recommend finding a store that has this level of service (I think REI does this in the States).

REI definitely does. Eastern Mountain Sports may also do this - I know they're not as widespread, but found similar selection and service to REI.

I don't believe places like Bass Pro or Cabela's will do this.

I have had an ALICE pack Large for about 20 some years , I suppose if your were in the military you got used to them , that said ,it doesnt bother me wearing it, however , I would think in todays market there are many better packs available , as someone said the ALICE was a tactical pack , but now adays there packs for every purpose , specialty packs . I would examine what your needs are before you buy , for instance is this a secondary Bug Out bag? It wouldnt be a very good first bugout because of its bulk. If its for hiking I would re asses your needs , ALICE packs generally are not a good choice for hiking , they break your back , I think the form fitting bags that even the weight to your hips is the way to go , you want the energy evenly distributed , I think a pack is narrow at the top and bulk at the bottom is better , I also prefer a belt at the waist , and on the straps as well to cinch while hiking , just my preferance.
Dont concern yourself with carry bulk ammo , unless your in the need it would be highly advisable to dig a hole and waterproof a container and we call this a cache , strategically located along the trail you intent to take (before hand) that way you can take limited amount of ammo ,the ammo will weigh a bag down in a hurry , have a good belt to carry canteens , not getting too off the OP but having a cache pre-planned is an excellent idea to lesson the pack load , these caches can have an assortment of things from food /water/ammo/tools/weapons/clothing/etc ,

My brother gave me a new Jansport big bear 82 that he snagged at good will for $7.99. It looks new with no signs of wear and I cant wait ti transfer my gear to it and mod it to suit my needs.

I found good reviews that mostly say its cool but sucks after 40 pounds of gear and lacks small external pockets. I figure ANYTHING has to be better that my ALICE, which I havent given up on either.

Pooly

I worked for a wilderness program w/ troubled teen for many many years (Wilderness EMT, Equipment Manager there as well), after Army and college. I humped various packs for years, mountain altitude to canoe portages, Canada, Mexico, and US. For BOB, I would consider external frame, well adjusted. They offer solid support and some degree of flexibility to configure and "odd" load if needed (strip off the nylon pack from the frame). You can also easily replace a ill fittiing or worn out part/strap if needed. Also, could retro fit a Mil Spec belt or other "system" type item to carry accessories within easy reach (think ammo pouch). Additional benefits are they can be found dirt cheap as you have found out. I have many around my place, one REALLY old Paul Petzolt (NOLS) pack from 1960's. Some externals are plastic framed, others aluminum. I found the plactic to flex just a little that was a POSITIVE attribute. Weight distrobustion within the external pack is even MORE critical than with an internal frame as it is further away from your body to start. Put weight high and close to your body, lighter stuff low and away. Worth mentioning is also the fact that in a BOB situation it might be difficult to keep the pack out of the weather, and I dont know that ANYONE has ever designed one, but a "Bill's Bag" (envision an Army duffle but bigger in rubber) rubber sealable pack like a portage pack (although they lack a frame or support of any type)would be the cats meow. You will likely not have control over exposure to weather conditions. You can get soaked, but you ABSOLUTELY need to keep your gear dry. It is nearly impossible without something like this:


http://www.scouttech.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1634


Another advantage is the clean lines and lack of "stuff" sticking out that will catch on things, whether the environ is wilderness OR urban. Also, on an external frame pack, repairing ripped or broken strap is pretty simple. On a sewn internal, NEARLY impossible in the field (my teens could break ANYTHING and did)


Good luck, Ironwood

Ive fine tuned my jansport to suit my needs well. As for ALICE, I now use it as a day pack and still am able to carry a light load in it with no problems.