Tried searching but I must be doing something wrong cause I got pages of results that had nothing to do with bug out vehicles!

OK, so Im looking for a small Rav4 or Hyundai Tucson type escape pod.

Seen firsthand and heard alot of bad concerning jeeps although they seem to be pretty much what would work best.

Can you guys elaborate on a good crossover or suv AWD vs 4x4 that gets good MPG or help out with any advice?

Thanks in advance

Ive seen a lot of debates on the subject,one was 4x4 pickup vrs Jeep.

I have both and agree with the overwhelming opinion that a truck is much better than Jeep,much more room and power for tow,etc.Hands down the Ole Dodge Cummins,1997 (No smog,all mechanical but for 4th gear in tranny),is the first choice for a BOV here,far more capable overall than Jeep,Jeep only gets advantage on tight trails IMO.

Neighbor has a Rav4,its great riding over snow and seems dependable,though theirs is very low miles.

Subarus are huge sellers here,great in snow as long as have clearance,good tires and they are unstoppable but do homework,there were a few years with engine problems.

When it comes to small CUVs in the U.S., the most popular (in order) are:
Ford Escape
Honda CR-V
Chevrolet Equinox
Toyota RAV-4

With that being the case, you really can't go wrong with any of them. They're mechanically pretty similar; basically a tall FWD car with a clutch-based AWD system. They get pretty good fuel economy, but the tradeoff is generally poor off-road performance.

If you want better off-road performance, then there are other popular choices:
Jeep Wrangler
Jeep Liberty
Nissan Xterra
Toyota FJ

Unfortunately, the downside with these vehicles is significantly worse fuel economy.

Also worth on honorable mention is the Subaru Forester. On the upside, it offers a better AWD system than what is available in the Escape/CR-V/etc (though not as good as the other 4 listed above). On the downside, if you don't get the 5-spd stick you're stuck with an antiquated 4-spd automatic. The interior is also slightly outdated vs. most of the competitors.

As you mentioned, another one worth considering is the Hyundai Tucson. Hyundai has really stepped up their game in recent years and is offering some real competitive models at very reasonable prices. While I don't think they're 100% there yet in some areas, they are definitely worth looking at. One interesting feature that Hyundai cuvs have is the ability to lock the AWD system into a permanent 50/50 torque split. This can be helpful off-road, though isn't designed for more than casual off-road use.

All in all, I would definitely give them all a look/test drive. More than likely you'll find one you like more than the others based on your needs and price range.

On a side note, I only made mention of smaller CUVs/SUVs, since that's what you seem to be leaning towards. If you're having any thoughts toward mid-size SUVs/CUVs I can also offer some recommendations there.

I recently sold a Trailblazer that I had since new. It was 4x4, got decent milage and NEVER, EVER had a problem. I had the gauges act up once and had them repaired for $100 and that was the only expense besides normal servicing, which I followed the factory recommendations. It has HI and LO 4-wheel drive, which would probably be essential to a serious bug out vehicle. I kept it 8 years and 90,000 miles, flawless.

Many of the SUV's on the market today do not have hi/lo 4-wheel drive and are at a disadvantage. Most SUV's have evolved into pricey station wagons and may have AWD that is decent for snow over a paved road. Very few have good ground clearance, which was the one fault I had with the Trailblazer. Many of the vehicles others have mentioned do not have hi/lo 4-wheel and some are auto AWD which means you have to spin a wheel to engage other drive wheels, undesireable in most snow and off road situations.

I have wanted a Jeep since I was a small kid and finally bought one in July, a 2012 Wrangler Unlimited. It has good space inside, which to me was important. A pickup will have more space but is it secure space? One issue I have always had with pickups is the lack of rear wheel traction when really needed. They work well when loaded but on any slippery surface the rear is very squirrely when the bed is empty. So a Jeep 4-door Wrangler was my choice and I will see how it holds up over time. I am always a believer that maintaining the vehicle is critical to it's long-term performance and I am pre-paid for 5 years on that.

I am hoping that the new Jeep has more reliablity than some previous ones. The engines have always been weak and ancient designs. The 2012 has a totally modern V6 with 285 Horsepower and it should be much better than the last engine which had 202hp. So far my Jeep has gotten an average of 18.8 mpg, mostly in the city. Not bad for a 4-wheel drive that is as aerodynamic as a large brick.

I have plenty of ground clearance and heavy-duty tires as well. I am also amazed at all of the bolt right on accessories available for the Jeeps and most are not too expensive.

I also like the Toyota FJ Cruiser and the Nissan Exterra, both are well made, have a good drive train and excellent ground clearance. Lots of used ones around but many are 2-wheel drive, which is surprising to me. Most of the new 4x4's that are hi/lo 4-wheel drive, have good ground clearance and some cargo capacity are pretty pricey but only about as much as a well equipped mid-size car.

I recommend testing some out and seeing what fits your needs and budget. I would not recommend any without true 4-wheel drive and hi/lo transfer case is a must in my book too. Few today come that way, probably to keep the price down.

Has the humvee replaced the jeep as the outdoorsmans vehicle in the US? Like it has in the military.
They are non existent in the UK whereas the jeep is selling well. God knows why; since it's bottom of the reliability tables, costs a fortune, costs a fortune to run....
qjs

GM's Hummer brand doesn't exist anymore, therefore no new Hummers are being made. Even when they were in production, I rarely saw one off-roading, at least here on the east coast. Most prevalent were the H3's, probably because they were the most affordable and are small enough to fit down most trails. H1's are just rare in general, while H2's are/were pretty expensive and simply too wide for a lot of trails.

Much more common are Jeeps (specifically Wranglers or Cherokees), Toyota 4Runners/FJs, pickup trucks of various makes/models, and in some places old Broncos/K5 Blazers. Lately the new thing is Ford's Raptor pickup. It's way too wide for tight technical trails (just like with the H1/H2), but when they have room to run they can be pretty amazing. Very powerful, as new ones have 411hp/434ft-lbs tq from a naturally aspirated engine (that converts to 306kw/588nm I think).

Occasionally I see a few older Land Rovers (usually Discovery models, as Defenders are extremely rare here), but they're nightmares to keep running. Reliability is extremely poor and when they do break parts can be difficult and expensive to procure.


Other than that, it's dirt bikes and ATVs everywhere off-road. ATVs are extremely popular, as they're less expensive than 4x4 trucks/SUVs, they aren't required to meet the same safety standards road-going vehicles are, and they aren't required to meet the same emissions standards road-going vehicles are. This means they can be extremely compact and comparatively simple (and everyone in a family can have fun driving their own if they're old enough and can afford it). The downside is, in most places, they aren't legal for use on public roads. Therefore, if you aren't storing them in the same place you ride, then you'll probably have to transport them on a trailer (or in the bed of a pickup if you're just moving one ATV).

I did forget the forester and outback. Subaru is plentyful in my area and for a good reason. Im on a budget of aprox 8-9k so its basically going to be for something that may not look so pretty but I work in a collision repair shop so most things can be fixed by myself or my buddies.

I still am gunshy of jeeps. A coworker just bought a loaded new one that came with a severe leak in the door rubber.

Not really looking to blaze trails through the woods but for something that can handle perhaps a neglected dirt road, snow or crossing a field.

Thanks for the inputs guys you are quite helpful and make lots of good points I will consider when i go shopping.

Then it sounds like the Subaru would be a vehicle you would be very happy with. Bud was looking at Subies and the only thing that turned him off was price,they hold value real well.

2 neighbors have them,both buy new.One is the legacy,other is WRX.The L is a fine foul weather vehicle,the WRX is a kids car with basically slicks for tires,thing is an embarrassment in snow/ice,wont move at all.But his choice is a race car.

So I would add....tires are going to make the vehicle,a good snow/ice tire and you will be good to go for what you want.So put away about 800-1000 bucks for good tires.

I like the All-Terrain T/A® KO Tires,what I have on all my vehicles,long lasting,relatively comfy and quiet and SUPER on ice.Also great in mud and OK in sand.

Reckon there are others good too (just I havent experience with them),but tires will really make your vehicle the escape pod you want.
====================================


All Season TireAll Season Tire

The tire that invented the all-terrain category, setting the standard for on- and off-road performance.

Benefits of BFGoodrich

Maximum all-terrain traction.
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Incredible sidewall strength.

You make a lot of good points in your post.

True on the rears can be light,cant count the numbers I see in snow banks every season.2 wheel drive pickup going uphill in ice/snow,you gotta be kidding,stay home!

Now MY Jeep (YMMV),unlike my truck,is light and will sit there spinning tires bacause it cant hook up to ice then plow thru snow,not my truck. Though chains can make a difference to a point.....

Also good point on secure space.

My answer was a heavy 4x4 truck with a very heavy engine in front,the Cummins. Wont see my truck stuck in a snow bank,or unable to climb the ice chute they call the road to my house. Heavy (TRACTION) 4x4,Secure and great snow/ice tires and a pick up is a fine vehicle.






Plus your dogs can drive it in an emergency

Can you get a Fiat Panda Cross 4x4 in the USA?

Economy mpg is around 67 mpg and combined around 55 mpg.

It can also go pretty much anywhere a Mercedes G Wagon or Range Rover can go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErwvDAnWY8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAg4DdXAp7Y

So much depends on how far you need to go, how much stuff you need to carry and what kind of terrain and opposition to expect.

In some cases a bicycle would be sufficient. In others a fully stocked Army-surplus 2.5 ton truck and a fuel trailer wouldn't be enough.

Start with these considerations- (please don't post answers this is just food for thought)

Where are you bugging TO? How much of your stuff is there?

How much do you have to bring with you?

What will the roads be like? What will the alternate roads be like?

What weather conditions?

What are the road shoulders like? (When everyone runs out of fuel while sitting in a traffic jam ahead of you)

Will you have to drive off-trail to get around the jams?

Will you have to ford rivers and creeks to get around jammed bridges?

Etc.

My personal answer is - a bicycle so I can get home from work to where my stuff is. I plan on bugging IN.

Never seen a Panda here,dang seems like a great little car.

Is that an Imperial gallon?
---------------
One imperial gallon is approximately equal to 1.201 U.S. gallons. One imperial gallon is exactly 4.54609 litres, whereas one U.S. gallon is exactly 3.7854118
-----------------

Hey Bert....you have a Unimog? Now THATS a BOV! I agree,weve been talking about tossing a couple bikes in back of truck.

I think tho,for what the OP wants,a driver that is a family type vehicle... is that we (me?) are going beyond in our replies,seems he wants just what he said,a street vehicle with decent MPG,not too big,and can go SOME offroad.....a small SUV type is just what he needs.

But to offer him other options as he asked for "or help out with any advice?",its appropriate and maybe helpful to consider what might not have been readily apparent in his ideas.

Nope, only Fiat model we get here right now is the little 500.

Supposedly we'll get a version of the Panda 4x4 in the future, likely as a Jeep model though.

Honda Element. AWD.

You could get a nice used Element in your price range.

Gas mileage in the 20s.

From 2003-2011, it was built in Ohio on the same chassis as the CRV. The emphasis with the Element was on sports utility (minus the off-road, log-hopping ability of a serious 4x4).

I've had my 2004 Element (AWD) for eight years and still love it. It has been 100% dependable. A typical camping trip will have my Element towing a teardrop trailer, hauling two mountain bikes on the back of the trailer, a couple of inflatable canoes atop the Element in the Yakima Loadwarrior roof basket and gobs of gear inside.

A motorcycle will fit inside the Element. It has a remarkable volume of storage space.

The Element is comfortable to sleep in (for one or two up to six feet tall - depending on girth).

No matter the BOV, I'd be prepared for it to run out of fuel. So I'd put a bike rack on it.

What is the best BOV is an endless discussion for reasons already mentioned, and more. If there ever were a mass evacuation scenario in my area, the roads would be so jam-packed I could walk faster than the cars will be moving (which already is the case during the worst of rush hours here).

Still, I enjoy the BOV discussions. Fuel-miser Prius vs. gas-hog high capacity fuel tanks 4x4? Pre-electronic, wrenchable vintage vehicle (EMP scenario) vs. modern extremely complex vehicle? Four wheels vs. two (motorcycle)? RV?

In a TEOTWAWKI situation (is that your concern?), eventually it likely would come down to a backpack and boots.

TEOTWAWKI in our nation of 300,000,000 is going to empty the gas stations and store shelves in a couple days, maybe a matter of hours.

P.S. in the photos below, that is a scooter on the back of the teardrop, obviously not a mountain bike. My dog pulls the scooter (and bikes).

I am hoping that the 2012 Wrangler with a new engine design and a new transmission will not have the problems that some previous years have had. So far I have no complaints with my new Jeep. In the USA it is inexpensive to repair a Jeep and parts are everywhere with the Jeeps being so popular. On that note, I also owned a 2004 Land Rover Disco and while I liked it, it also had constant little leaks and service issues that ate me alive once the warranty had expired. I had my Trailblazer at the same time and had no problems and the Trailblazer cost #10,000 less when new. The Disco was better off road but as a daily driver it was expensive, Insurance was also very high for the Disco.

I think it is a general rule that foreign cars always are more expensive to own and operate. In the UK a Jeep is a foreign product and it probably is costly to own, just like my Rover was for me.

I think it all boils down to what fits a persons needs best and a pickup has always been something I had no use for. I have owned several and always went back to some form of SUV.

What you say about a Jeep being light on the wheels may be true, I have yet to own one before now and I know the concept since I owned a first generation Ford Bronco and a first gen International Scout. They both had problems in certain traction conditions.

A driver and a driver's overall experience has much to do with how effective a particular vehicle will perform. I have seen all sorts of vehicles on their roof or side, or off the side of the road in conditions that I just motored through, with more caution. I am hoping that the lessons that I have learned over the decades will keep me from suffering the embarassment of being a victim of the road conditions. I am sure you know that many a 4-wheel drive owners think their vehicle will go places that it really won't and we've pulled them out once in a while. I have had my share of oops over the years and I hope I learned from it too Nice truck BTW!

Indeed, the driver is the most critical aspect. Rally racers usually use front wheel or all wheel drive cars, there are some special races for trucks, but most are cars, small ones. while they are not crossing huge obstacles, they do negotiate some very rough and slick surfaces. Driver skill makes all the difference. I, like widget, have seen so many large 4x4s in the ditch, upside down or impossibly stuck, and it is all because the driver thought that the truck would do everything for them. Overconfidence in your abilities, or the abilities of your vehicle, is what gets most in trouble.

You need the right vehicle for your circumstances and the objective you need to accomplish. If you bug out route is paved roads and you are not carrying much, a small front wheel drive can do it for cheap and using less fuel. If you have to cross sand dunes, you might need something else. that is where planning comes in. In other posts there have been discussions about planning your routes, distances to travel and obstacle to overcome. If you are not going to do the analysis and planning, then go for the 4x4 with a lift kit, just learn how to drive it and make sure you are carrying plenty of fuel.

Yes, that would be Imperial gallon.

Fuel efficiency for the Panda is pretty reasonable. During a recent long weekend fishing trip to the West highlands of Scotland around Oban (Loch Etive, Loch Awe etc), we loaded up the little Panda with 3 people, all our fishing tackle (sea fishing and freshwater loch fishing) and a couple of 70 litre Bergen's. One of the Bergen's sat beside the passenger in the back. The Panda was probably at its maximum useful weight limit load capacity. The Panda was still getting 50+ mpg or around 43 mpg (US). Acceleration wasn't the greatest on the Narrow, tight and windy roads but it did get up Glen Ogle climb perfectly OK.

There are cars that are a lot faster of course, such as the MINI John Cooper Works GP getting a top speed of around 150 mph and very good acceleration 0-60 in under 6 seconds but still achieve around 40 mpg (imp) (normal everyday use) especially if only carrying your 40-60lb BOB.

Would it be an advantage to have this kind of performance as in some circumstances a 'wacky races' might ensue during a emergency Bug Out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=717t2oYLGkU

The trade off is getting from A to B very rapidly ahead of the rest of the crowd instead of carrying everything including the kitchen sink in a Jeep Grand Cherokee which might get you 12 mpg or considerably less whilst stuck in a traffic Jam.

One of my Buddies brothers had a Jeep Grand Cherokee, which we gave it a nickname - 'Bulge Tiger 2' i.e. it would run over anything in its path but would run out of petrol half way before its objective...

If you are looking to keep costs down, it is hard to go wrong with a Jeep XJ (Cherokee) 4x4. I'm not sure which Jeep engines you guys are talking about, because the 4.0L HO I6 in the Cherokees ('91-'01) has one of the best reps out there. They are well known for lasting over 300k. They made millions of Cherokees and a simple Craigslist search will turn up dozens in just about every local, most for less than $5k. I got a very nice low mile '98 for $4k.

The only downside to the Cherokees was the unibody, so rust is an important concern when buying. Other than that they are very easy to work on, parts are everywhere. You can buy a spare engine for $300-$400 or less, and a spare transmission for $200 if that. The AW4 tranny is also well known for durability. Parts Jeeps are plentiful.

Tons of aftermarket lifts and anything else you want are available to trick them out. Mileage is generally in the low/mid 20s, which is much better than my truck. Throw in a bigger gas tank and some tire chains and there are few places you can't go. Plus you can take the kids with you!

Greg

I second the XJ vote for a versatile, available choice.
I own 2 2001 units (the last year they were made).
Very common, good enough reliability*, enough space, enough power, pretty darn good offroad.
Meets my needs.

But it's still too hard to say what any given person needs for a BOV. Only they can decide.


*Definitely not perfect.

A driver and a driver's overall experience has much to do with how effective a particular vehicle will perform. I have seen all sorts of vehicles on their roof or side, or off the side of the road in conditions that I just motored through, with more caution. [/quote]
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Isnt that the truth!

We live in a Mtn resort type area so we get a lot of flatlanders up here in big trucks with low profile street tires,Escalades with fancy tires totally unfit for snow,Escapes with street tires (STAY HOME!!!),and yes Jeeps with street tires (Makes NO sense to me,but they are out there) and they think their vehicle will blast thru snow like a car commercial.

In my experience where we live the most defining vehicle failure on 4x4/awd is inadequate tires,and yes,lack of driver experience.

Dagny,love your rig,very nice!!

LOL,my baja bug was great in snow with chains but the wipers left lots to be desired.So Im in big time snow storm and pull to side of road to wipe window and parked it,right into a snow covered ditch!! Fellow came by in a truck and pulled me out,yup,felt sorta dumb on that one.

I had to laugh about the wiper reference. It made me remember my old '63 Scout and a friends old LR Defender 110, both with vacuum wipers and tiny engines. I once had to pull over about every other exit off the Interstate to wipe off the windshield in a snow storm. It got so bad that a Highway Patrolman noticed me and stopped by to see if I was having any mechanical trouble. He had noted that I kept leaving the highway. I think 1968 was the year that electric wipers were actually mandated, someone was thinking! We sometimes forget how primitive some vehicles were only a few decades ago. The old LR Defender had little manual handles for the wipers like an old army truck. That didn't work well either.

I would agree with spuds, but I would also add ground clearance. Tires and ground clearance are going to contribute to 90% of your cars your ability (aside from driver skill), everything else is a minor consideration.

Among all the crossovers, I think Subarus probably have the best AWD system of any carmaker aside from Audi and Porsche. However, as I mentioned above, any of the competitors (CRV,RAV-4, etc) will perform about the same in any given situation because those two factors are usually very similar across all brands. I've taken my Forester on a lot of unmaintaned (or non-existing) roads and what's always been the limiting factor was ground clearance and traction, not what type of AWD or 4x4 system it had.

I also have a "real" 4x4 for off-roading, but if given the choice to use one for long distance travel, the choice is easy, I'd take the Forester. The advantages to a small crossover vs a 4x4 is it's more comfortable, gets better mileage, and is just easier to drive. The trade-off is the ability to travel more difficult roads, but since you say you don't have a need for a real 4x4 I would think any of the crossovers will fit the bill. If your planning to use this as your primary car, I wouldn't worry too much about off-road ability and just pick the one you like best.

what is this "snow" of which you speak?

Over the years I have owned a myriad of cars SUV's and trucks.

Like a couple of others here, I can vouch for the Jeep Cherokee XJ model. IMO, these are about the best all around and off road SUV style vehicles out there. And as Greg mentioned, there were millions of these made and the 4.0L HO, straight 6 engine (not V6) is legendary for it's longevity and ease of use to work on.

The 1997 Cherokee I had was equipped with the 4.0L HO engine, a 5 speed manual transmission, a 8.25" Chrysler limited slip real differential with 3.73 gearing. For a factory stock vehicle, it was very, very capable offroad. Also as Greg mentioned, there is a ton of aftermarket parts available for the XJ's. To this day, I kick myself for ever selling this vehicle...

I should clarify on AWD being a potential risk. If you are driving a slick road and forward momentum is inhibited by loss of traction, the other axle will kick in and grab, works great.

If you are on the highway at some speed and hit some ice covered by snow and the vehicle starts to lose control, in other words starts to get sideways, the AWD will not engage most likely because you are not spinning wheels and unless you are going slow enough to recover through driver inputs, you are going around and maybe over. All of the AWD systems that I have seen on SUV's are like a limited slip differential between the front and rear wheels. They have a way of giving a false confidence, especially on snowy highways. The only way to get the other wheels to engage is to hit the gas to cause the regular drive wheels to spin, which is not a natural reaction in a slide sideways.

I am sure some work differently but those I have experience with work like a limited slip differential between the front and rear wheels and are not 4 wheels driving. If you do get stuck, the lack of low range to help self extrication is a disadvantage also.

It comes down to what you need a vehicle to do and where you plan to drive it. I would say most of my 4 wheel driving is on snowy highways and the only thing I feel comfortable with is a true 4-wheel drive system.

I'm not selling anything, just sharing my thoughts on what works for me. Every person has their own situation and needs and hopefully talking about the pros and cons will help someone make a good decision for their needs.

For me it's based on where you are, where you think you'll be trying to get to, how many of you are going, and what you think you want to bring. I've got myself, my bride and three kids. Going to Grandma's house looks like an expedition to Everest; our ideal bug out vehicle would probably be a C-130. Sadly, my driveway isn't quite long enough to park one.

All jest aside I think my ideal BOV would be a crew cab 4x4 with an auxiliary fuel tank and a cap. What I've got is a mechanically reliable minivan and a lot of experience driving road vehicles in less than ideal conditions.

In the one evacuation I have been in government automobile fuel economy ratings were completely irrelevant since I spent the time parked on a freeway with a million of my closest friends. The accelerator pedal was largely unused; most acceleration was accomplished by easing off the brake. I was in 1st gear 90%+ of the trip.

I doubt the vehicle makes much difference, other than to be sure you can stay warm and dry even in stop-and-go traffic. Planning is the key - where will you go? What will traffic be like if *everyone in town* evacuates at the same time? Which destinations are realistic based on your departure point (might depend on departure from work or departure from home)? What items will you need between departure and final arrival?

My personal and "precinct" evacuation plans just have me driving the usual route 30 miles to my parent's house. My "urban" evacuation plan - where the entire city has to leave - is more elaborate due to the desire to avoid routes others might use: it's probably more realistic to hope to refuel in Tumble Weed, West Texas than to try the shorter I-35 direct route between Austin, TX and Dallas.

In the "urban" scenario I'd also grab a sleeping bag, case of bottled water, and a bag of food, as sell as the toolbox if it wasn't in the car already.

I can't help but chime in on this...

What I own:

I have a 2010 Ford Escape V6 AWD. It's loaded with fun stuff.. most of it impractical for a bug out vehicle (other than the emergency "gear" I've added to that I actually listed in another post (my first one here) looking for advice what to add to it.

This vehicle gets around awesome in the snow, the AWD kicks in when you need it and saves you gas by not turning on when you don't. It has an automatic wheel slip control if the rear wheels cut loose and can detect slides that will automatically engage one of the rear wheel brakes in an effort to square it up. It's only kicked in a few times, but it seems to work pretty well.

The traction control however does NOT work on Sandy beaches, but there is a button to turn it off.

This vehicle has a kinda "hidden" compartment in the back where you would think a spare tire might fit, but I keep all my emergency supplies in that and a tote. There's enough in there to get me by for about three days.

To be honest, Subaru's have the absolute best AWD system for the money IMHO. It's side to side and front to back, it's really good. It's what I would be driving if only they made a Subaru that can tow 3500 pds.

Anyway, Tires.. Tires.. Tires... Snow tires in the Winter, and a good pair of all around tires for the Spring/Summer/Fall months. The new Blizzaks and WinterForce tires get as good traction with their new composite rubber compounds as you used to get with studded snow tires but they ride quite when the winter streets are dry.

Tire Chains are handy if your in the Colorado mountains in winter, but you can't drive more than 30 - 35 MPH on them (like I would want to drive faster in a snow storm in Colorado...) and are a bit of pain to put on. Might not be a terrible idea to have a two sets (front and back!), but if you've never put on a set in the middle of snowstorm, well... make sure you practice with them first!

Driver experince is probably the most important thing. I've seen big 4WD lifted trucks with kids who get excited with their first snow fall and then they realize how easily they can end up without the rubber side down.

As has been mentioned, ground clearance is a huge issue.. a high-centered 4WD is not an impossibility... I've seen it happen here in Iowa.

I've taken my Escape out into the country, in the middle of a blizzard and drove it through drifts on the road that were 2 feet high.. It would blast right through them. But I have no doubt if the snow was a consistent 24 - 36 inches, I'd be in trouble.

As a project with my son, I am working on a 1988 Ford F250 4x4. It has a 460 V8 5Spd Manual in it. The 4WD system is the old DANA manual lock-out (get out of the truck and turn the hubs) kinda 4WD. It's VERY solid and reliable. It's been fun working on it, but everytime I start the engine it costs me a $1. ... let alone drive it. Guess that'll keep him from going too far with it.

So, not much great advice in this post, but I'm feeling talkative tonight...

Here's a list of the gear I have in the Escape at this time:

Food:

Emergency Bars (Datrex) (two packs)
Emergency Water (six 1 pint packs)

Hardware:

12v Air Pump
Folding Shovel/Entrenching Tool
Hand Axe / W small Saw in Handle
LED Emergency Strobes (Super Bright - Road Emergency)
Jumper Cables
Tow Rope
Fire Extinguisher
Ice scraper
Full Windshield Sun visor
Four tie downs
MultiTool
Gorilla Tape
10 (12 hr) Chemical Light Sticks
Paper Towels
OTG Goggles
40 Channel Portable CB Radio / Extra Batteries
Stainless Steel Pot to melt snow/warm canned soup/hot chocolate
5 Inch Knife (CRKT)
Heavy duty garbage bags/ties

Water Proof Pants

Emergency Supplies:

Water Proof Matches
Fire Starters
Emergency Blanket (Soft)
Emergency Blanket (Silver/WaterProof)
Gel Burners
Battery Light Sticks (Led Flashlight/Red Strobe)
Dyno Flashlight - (Emergency Cell phone charger)
Chemical Warmers (20 count) + 2 in Plastic tote
Fix a flat
Sealed pack of wet wipes/Wet Naps
Fire Starters
Insect Repellent Wet-naps


AAA Emergency Bag (1st Aid Kit + Home of Jumper Cables and Tow Rope above)
Some items in this kit:
1 Flashlight, Batteries
Emergency Poncho
Bandaids, Alcohol Wipes, etc.
Heat Resistant Gloves
Some other misc stuff

On Person:

Zippo Lighter (Upgrading to Coleman Lighter soon)
Leatherman MultiTool
Folding PocketKnife
Smart Phone with GPS/Weather/Police Scanner/Mini LED Flashlight

That has always been my concern when considering a route out of the Phoenix, Arizona area. The traffic on a holiday weekend heading north is enough to scare Mario Andretti. I cannot imagine getting far away from the valley area if all 5 million had to depart.

The options are some dirt roads that are not for cars but don't really require a 4x4, just plenty of clearance. I figure on those roads it may be possible to get out of the city, but maybe still very slow. The key would be to know the route, with alternates, if any and to prepare for a slow drive. It would surely help to get going as early as possible.

I must really admit that I have little bug out plans. The only thing I can see that may ever require me to leave the home is a power outage for a long period during the summer here. You would have to get to cooler country. I really can't think of too many other scenarios that would force an evacuation. If there was a reason, I can't imagine what it would be.

I do have a place to go to up north and it is prepped out by a friend and I have an invite. So, I could get out early and I would have about 120 miles to go, on back, dirt roads, if the Interstate was a parking lot, I think I would expect that and not even try the Interstate. So, all I need is some ground clearance and some water and a bag of clothes for all conditions. A firearm or 10 would be handy I would guess.

bug out bike from my generation...

Les,that pic is exactly what several of us were trying to convey about bicycles on the thread about bugging out with the baby,they moved a lot of goods on those things.Not riding em,pushing them,thanks for the pic.

If someone is interested , maybe there can be a thread about NON-MOTORIZED BOVs. In particular, I always thought about this bicycle idea with some ... what shall I say, there are better alternatives.

What I have in mind is a two wheel trailer/cart that you pull behind you will all weight on the wheels. Seems to me better alignment with your forward motion and more enenergy efficient than the bike.

The bik idea is better when you have a very narrow trail, but otherwise a cart seems to be better until someone convinces me otherise.

Detour end.
Back to track

I have the same dillema with rugged 4x4 vs a more civilized version. I do have a Toyota Land Cruiser but to climb Mt. Everst with one of these , you need a driver of the right caliber. I have scaled down my courage long time ago. When family is with me in the car, I will only drive through paved roads or short stretches of sandy roads. No 4x4 stunts , even if zombies are in my rear mirror.

So, for me a Subaru or Honda Element is OK. But then we get in some other problems. When you have a land cruiser or Toyota Hilux for example, you guarantee the availability of spare parts no matter where you are. Just look at the news , and see what everone is riding. From African warloards, or Lybian rebels, to Taliban fighters in Afghanistan, "Toyota" is always there on the screen.

YMMV, and no link to Toyota other than satisfied customer.

In a nut shell, alot of factors play a role in choosing the right BOV.

I believe if you do the math you'll find that a bike is more efficient. I can't find the like right now, but a bike is more efficient that walking, i.e. you expend less energy per length of travel. Walking and pulling a cart behind would use even more energy than just walking.

Bike + bike trailer has great utility, especially after the BOV runs out of gas.

Here's one of my mountain bikes pulling a dog trailer (holding two puppies). That is a "Croozer" brand dog trailer rated to carry 100 pounds. There's also a luggage rack that fits on top of it and there's a third wheel and handlebars so it can function as a stroller.

There are a number of strictly cargo trailers to choose from. A child trailer would also hold a fair amount.

I'd enjoy a thread on non-motorized BOVs.

Bicycles are considerably more efficient than walking and they are not restricted to roadways,and can be carried for short distances across obstacles that stop automobile. However,they are no better than the engine driving them. If you are not a regular bike rider, a bug-out situation is not the best venue for training.

I would want one available so that I could adapt to circumstances.

Hikemor made some good points. If you are not conditioned for bike riding, attempting a bug-out by bike is going to leave your body in some hurt and in more places then you do not want to contemplate.

As for the concept of pushing a bike loaded with gear, a bit of a reality check is needed. This reality check is simple; most people cannot walk 10-20 miles on any given day, let alone while humping a 25-40 lb pack or pushing a fully laden bike, ala the 1960's era picture that Les posted...even on paved streets or paved roads. The human body needs to be trained for walking long distances especially if your bug-out plans include walking for multiple days, otherwise your whole body will suffer, especially your back, legs and feet.

Teslinhiker is 100% correct. Trekking long distances takes conditioning.

I'd also recommend a good set of boots (and socks) for serious walking with a load. And don't forget to break the boots in before you need 'em.

A bicycle doesn't provide much protection from the elements and if the cause of the "bug out" is a hurricane evacuation that matters a lot.

Eugene, I think I was not clear enough

spuds has mentioned that bicycles in the picture are used for gear ONLY . They are not for riding. I was commenting on these bicycles. If you notice the guy is pushing something that is not 100% alighned with his forward movement. He will be exrting some torque on ONE SIDE, and this is why one side of the handlebar was so long. The same guy could have moved the same load using a cart behind him easier than using this bike.

Saying it another way : Using this bike he spend TWO amounts of energy: one for moving forward, another for balancing the bike. Using a crt, he only pulls forward.

I may be right or wrong, but that is what I comparing. The "cargo bike vs cargo cart". I am not comparing walking beside the bike vs riding it.


I think we should leave this thread for mortorized BOV, and start another for bikes and carts.

Getting closer to shopping time. My son wants the crossfire for $7500 (plus he wrote off the 500 I owed him) and I put my 01 sentra on craigs list for $3550.

After setting $ aside for heating oil "gulp" I feel 9k is going to put me in a good position. Thankfully Im blessed with a job at an auto collision repair shop so body/rust repairs wont be an issue and my buds are good mechanics so I feel a little more at ease about down the road issues.

Looks like I keep the harley

BTW Gas has jumped 25/30 cents in my area this last week alone. Now 3.88 is the deal to look for with 3.98 looming around the next weekend!

Thanks for the tip Dagny. I did a quick search and found the Croozer Cargo model on Amazon for $179.99 shipped. Doesn't seem like a bad deal to me since it seems well put together.

For anyone that cares, the interior dimensions are 30.5 L x 19.5 W x 13.5 H (inches) & capacity is 66 pounds.

I am fortunate to be retired and only fill the tank maybe once a month. If I go on a trip though, it can really cost a lot to drive at 20mpg.

I wish someone would put a stop to the oil price fixing that we are victims of. There is no excuse besides pure greed. They are making money at the suffering of many.

Chisel- if your are not looking at riding, you have a point- a bike is not the best way. It does have an edge in versatility.
If you are looking at most distance with the most payload, the mechanical advantage of the bike is hard to overstate.
If you are looking at purely a cargo hauler over rough terrain, hmm- Chinese wheelbarrow vs pull behind cart....I think the key to either is having the load be as close to 100% on the vehicle, with wheels as large as possible.
It would be intresting to see what cargo amount one could load onto one of those two wheel scooters....

Look forward to see what you eventually purchase,you have lots of options.

Here is your ultimate bug out vehicle, if you can afford it!

Humdinga 4x4 and boat

Especially for those in hurricane areas and areas prone to flooding.

Bond....James Bond.

Major cool!

That.... was.... excellent!

Is your goal to be able to travel off-road and through extreme weather conditions, or to simply fit your family and gear for evacuation on-pavement?

If its the latter, an AWD minivan with good tires would be your best choice. But if its the former, I suggest you rethink the idea of using something like a CRV, Element, RAV4 or Subaru. I don't have anything against those small crossovers, I think they do an excellent job of dealing with most bad weather conditions and even some light-duty off-road situations. But if traffic has reached the point where getting to safety means leaving pavement or dealing with deep snow and/or debris, I would not want to bet my life on what's essentially a modern-day station wagon with all wheel drive. If a tractor trailer can't get through the snow or water, what makes you think your station wagon will make it? But of all the choices, the Subaru Outback would be my #1 pick: at least it has decent ground clearance and somewhat capable AWD.

Remember that if you're stuck in traffic and considering leaving the blacktop to get to safety, hundreds of others will too. Any trails easily driven by a CUV or other less-capable vehicle will likely get clogged and then blocked by other stuck drivers, if they aren't already blocked-off my officials. The shoulders and medians of highways will be clogged with people who got stuck trying to get around other stuck vehicles. I've seen this happen more than once. IMO, you need a vehicle that is easily maneuverable as well as able to safely drive through moderate to moderate-plus off-road terrain, that also makes sense as an additional vehicle for camping, hunting, the beach and other outdoors activities.

I happen to agree that an old Jeep Cherokee seems to be the ideal bug-out vehicle. No, it won't get 30MPG, but around 20-22 in stock configuration isn't that far off a Subaru and offers a great amount of capability. You can pick up a good condition pre-1999 Cherokee (XJ) with around 150K miles for under $3,000, spend $1-2k in maintenance and repairs, then put another 100K miles on it with little concern for any major drive train issues. The $25K you save versus a new CUV will pay for a lot of repairs, spare parts, upgrades and gas.

Well-built and well-maintained XJ's, upgraded for serious off-road capabilities but still with good on-road manners and decent fuel economy, can be found for $5,000 to $10,000. You can also upgrade the Cherokee yourself, spending between $3,000 and $5,000 in used but still reliable parts (available from members on any of the dozens of Jeep-related websites and local clubs), and make something that can go practically any other vehicle can travel, and do so with your entire family and weeks' worth of gear and supplies. I suggest building rather than buying because you not only get exactly what you want for both quality and function, but you also learn how to maintain and repair the vehicle, and what spare parts you need to keep handy.

If you stick with 1998 or earlier years you eliminate some of the reliability and component selection problems that plagued the '99 and later years (though with more than 100K miles, these problems should already have occurred and been fixed). The only major issues of concern would be improper maintenance and repairs, rust, and models with the Dana 35 rear axle (infamous because of its weakness and because when it breaks it is a PITA to repair). But used parts in good condition are plentiful and cheap: bare engines for $200-300, drop-in engines for 400-600, transmissions for $150-300, transfer cases for $75-150, computer modules for $50-100, complete wiring harnesses for $100, aftermarket parts for 30-50% of their cost new.

An XJ is not a bad daily driver or commuter vehicle, either. Of course if you add a lift, large tires and heavy armor for off-roading you will affect its road manners and MPG. But small changes can make a big difference in off-road capability while not greatly affecting comfort or economy.

There are some other older SUV's that are also worth considering, though the availability of aftermarket parts -- used or new -- can be a problem: Nissan Pathfinder, Ford Explorer, GMC Jimmy, Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Land Cruiser, Land Rover Discovery or Range Rover.

I'd also suggest the new Jeep Wrangler 4-door. I own a 2010 model, and know many people who own 2007 through 2013 models. The newer engine is nice, but there's no persistent reliability issues with the 07-11 motor, other than it doesn't have as much pep on the highway. In fact, it seems there are a lot more reliability issues with the new motor than the old. But the JK, particularly in 4-door trim, is a bigger vehicle on the outside than an XJ, while being smaller on the inside. It is also less nimble on-pavement, has less cargo space (discounting height differences), and is not as comfortable to drive on-pavement (it is a Jeep). Finally, a 4-Door Rubicon edition with all the off-road options offered by Jeep will cost over $40K new, and you'll be lucky to get 18MPG stock.

The Toyota FJ Cruiser might also be worth looking at, but passenger and cargo space isn't equal to the others mentioned above.

MARK_M You make several good points. However, I just have seen so many jeeps with problems that the overall ownership experience doesnt sit right.

Sounds like the set up youre talking about would be in the extreme jeep realm, winches skidplates brusg guards etc. Our budget is very limited so I'm settling on an 01 RAV4L with 138k certified and for $6400. Its clean and its from a huge Nissan dealership that my son is second in charge of.

Toyota's get good reviews and this model does well too. With a little modification (I work at a collison repair shop) it will be just what I need.

Ive been rethinking the bug out plan due to the fact that we've no place to go to. After the advice of members of this forum, Ive given up on the notion of subjecting my family's safety to a tent in the woods. More than likely we'll head for my parents or son's house and being prepared folk; we will try to leave before everyone else.

Its a gamble. Id love a hopped up jeep or range rover etc but Im happy with our choice and the better gas milage we'll get. Besides, if it all really falls apart TEOTWAWKI, then shopping for a new 4x4 will be eaisier

I'm not really a car guy, so take this as you will.

I'm biased towards the Tacoma, Explorer (older generations), maybe the XTerra (I like it's looks, but it was too similar to the Explorer I was trading in), the 4-door Jeep, and maybe the Raptor or H1. Ideally, all in 4wd. If you can get it, the Toyota Hilux too. If security is a concern, buy a cap or camper shell. But realize no vehicle is 100% secure.

Lots of room in them, obviously various capabilities, but all proven platforms. Not great milage however - I think the H1 was 8mpg with diesel. By comparison, my Tacoma, 2wd/4wd and a 3" lift, gets consistent 21-22mpg highway. The Explorer I had (1998) got around 16mph.

If you're going something smaller, I'd go with the Suburu, just based on my experiences. I spent a month in AK a few years back (the thread is somewhere here), and they were everywhere. Pretty much, the town wasn't plowed, so the streets were ice. Everyone had on snow tires and was driving 20-30mph on the ice roads w/ no problems. Nearly every car was a Suburu, usually w/ a lot of snomobiles and ATVs too.

Good choice on the Rav4,it rides over icy snow so that aspect is covered. Dont know about the miles on it,but I think you will find it ideal for what you want,good choice.

Dont forget to get chains asap so if it hits asap you will have em.

Spuds, I've never seen chains since moving out of California. My wife, from Wisconsin, looked at me all cross-eyed when I mentioned them once. Seems everyone just holds on for the ride ... of course, I pointed out that in So Cal, sliding off Big Bear is kind of a big deal. In the midwest you just whack a couple of corns talks

Chains-
Here in Colorado semi-trucks have to carry them during Fall & Winter. I've seen them stuck on I-25 at Longmont where it appears flat but where the road climbs out of a river valley and there is a slight grade. On ice, the unchained trucks get stuck. (Heard on the scanner as I was bailing out of work during a blizzard- 5 trucks stuck in the right lane, 5 minutes behind me the left lane got blocked by an unchained semi and the road was closed for the next 12 hours)

Some vehicles cannot accomodate chains on all wheels. The popular Jeep Cherokee (XJ) cannot take them on the front wheels because there isn't adequate clearance between the tires and the tie rod ends. This info is in the owner's manual (as well as being something visible to you if you spend time under your vehicle as I do).

I spent most of my life as a desert flatlander,whats chains?

Then moved to snow country,did some traveling.....what,you dont have a 4x4 and chains, LOL!

Never know,could wind up in snow country....so for your BOV,I would pack chains,when you need em they cant be bought,like generators.

Got relatives there,pretty state.

The foresters I've worked with over the years (who have 4 wheel drive vehicles and special mud tires, special suspensions, etc.) spend a goodly amount of time as part of their job driving on forested off-road trails and though rugged terrain. They laugh at themselves at how often they get practically irretrievably stuck (I mean bottoming out and then some) in the middle of the wild. They say that the better suited off-road vehicles with the more experienced off-road drivers, including themselves, get stuck in these off-road areas as often as ordinary vehicles with ordinary drivers — it's just that the ATV or 4-wheel drive vehicle occupants have a longer walk out than the ordinary vehicle occupants.

In the past I've come across quick-sand areas, where there was no way to tell it was quick-sand or gumbo. The surface in those areas seems solid, but if you leave your vehicle or tractor overnight on what you think is solid ground, when you come back in the morning, the vehicle will have disappeared.

On one project we had a "drag line" that was completely lost in a quick sand area - it was never recovered. A major effort was made by the underwriter to retrieve it but to no avail. Other heavy equipment was also lost in the recovery attempt. Coincidently, about 20 years later I was involved in a 3-D seismic shoot of the same area. I have the processed data and thought some day I’ll check to see where the drag-line (and the wagonload of gold they were searching for) is now.

Speaking of getting stuck, there's a military training base (a permanent Fort) where part of my job was to work with the Fort to identify hazardous areas in regard to third party oil & gas exploration. I was amazed to find notations at engineering and through interviews that a number of "tanks" got stuck 60 or 70 years ago so deep (subsurface) in the middle of dirt roads that it was then determined that the cost to recover them was greater than the value of the tank. So the army just covered them over with dirt and otherwise forgot about them. Many of those buried tanks are still located under these reservation dirt roads, exactly where abandoned - but driving on these roads today, you'd never know you were driving over tanks.

In the early 70s, I directed an archaeological project in Canyon de Chelly National Monument. We drove in the canyon daily, during the "good" part of the year when the canyon floor was deemed drivable, in a vehicle well suited and well maintained for the task. The best advice I ever got was, "You will get stuck. It is inevitable. Don't worry about it."

Sure enough, I got stuck, and more than once. We always stopped and assisted others, since we had a front-mounted winch that was invaluable in such conditions (your tax dollars at work). Likely as not, they would return the favor, sometimes the next day. I was amazed at the skill of the local Navajo inhabitants, who could get standard sedans places where I needed a FWD. Skill and experience count as much, or more, as equipment, gadgets, and doodads.

The beds of quicksand shifted unpredictably, so that staying in the established vehicle track wouldn't always work.

Thought #2. Wow, WWII era tanks completely buried in known locations? Sounds like a job for historical archaeologists and ground penetrating radar.....

RNewcomb - thank you for providing the excellent and well thought out (comprehensive) listing of the emergency items you keep in your vehicle.

If I could only choose one item from your comprehensive list to keep in my own vehicle, it would be "Fix a flat".

My only suggestion would be to carry at least two cans of it and to be sure to get only the highest quality (usually the most expensive) "Fix a flat" type product that is available. I've had good luck with NAPA's premium fix-a-flat. From my own expiernce (plenty in regard to flats in remote areas - due to the hazards of my business), there's a big difference between the high quality Fix-a-Flat type product and the standard. Even then, I use two cans of premium for each flat.

No matter what anyone says, don't worry about fix-a flat causing the tire to get out of balance in a major emergency.

Fix-a-flat tire fixer will get you home . . .

The stuff works good for that.

I've used it on four occasions and it has not worked for me once. Apparently I'm a slow learner. I've used the "Fix-a-Flat" brand for large tires.

I just was putting together an emergency bag for myself if I get stranded this winter and another bag of tools etc. I have the fix a flat although Ive never used it. I also have a tire repair kit that has a punch with rubber plugs.

gonna pull the back seats out of the rav4 when I get it and fabricate some groovy storage compartments.

Yeah, I said groovy

I LOVE tire chains....if your vehical cant use them for lack of clearence try tire cables. You can also clip along pretty fast with the cables vs. chains. Keep in mind the chains/cable work wonders in snow OR mud. Also, try Gempler's for a tire "Slime" that can self seal holes in tires

http://www.gemplers.com/product/G65511/GEMPLERS-Ultraseal-Tire-Sealant-1-gal-Bulletproof-Grade

. Also keep in mind that you will need AIR to fill the tires, think CO2 or the like container with 3000 psi of gas (non combusable)and retro fit a regulator and air hose to it. Many local fire depts have old tanks they dispose of. Re-cert them and if needed put a new valve on them for your gas(es) of choice. Wool blankets are great for smothering vehical fires and anything else engulfed. No so user friendly for "soft" in keeping you warm, but certainly multi purpose.

My BOV, for family of 5 and food/water, fuel for 3000 mi. un-aided is a Ford diesel 4 door dually. BIG ineffiecent, but if I am bugging it will be to "outrun" a cloud of something NBC (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical)and I know about bottle necks, bridges, main routes, etc... but I dont want to HAVE to stop if all is clear. You cant really stockpile gasoline today with the ethynol, so diesel for me. Generally I am hardening here for Bug-In. But just in case.......


Ironwood

One more note on tire chains, if you can get the ones with "welded half link" they are far superior and also there are many styles of tighteners. they all work with varying degrees of difficulty. I like more modern "camming" style chains although nearly all of mine are flea market finds and have whatever tighteners I could find but the "half link" is the most important performance feature. I cut/weld and modify as needed. you can shorten/lengthen an retro as needed.

Ironwood

GG,how you liking the Rav4?

I only read the first page of this thread.

Could we learn some lessons from the (long Range Desert Group ) vehicles ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Desert_Patrol

I have noticed they used TWO wheel drive trucks becuase they were lighter and easier on fuel then the 4x4 counterparts.

Many many farm trucks in the midwest are two wheel drive and with tire chains you can go many place a 4x4 can, and even some they cant..... worth mentioning as they are usually ALOT cheaper and for use, just as good. My only exception would be on snow at higher speeds where chains/cable would be inapproriate/unacceptable.

There is also an option on "bud wheeled" one tons where you can throw a "quickie" chain thru three of the four holes in the outer rear rim (no brake clearence needed). You cannot put one thru the hole with the valve stem as it will rip it out and give you a flat. If you have ever seen a UPS driver get stuck, it is the first option to get unstuck before they call a tow truck and spend $$$ to get out. They go in in just minutes instead of 30-60 minutes to put on real tire chains. I have used this technique sucessfully several times. This article shos them on a standard wheel circa 1985, so steel. This could work on todays cast alum rims you just have to watch clearences on back side. I have seen some wit hheavy nylon webbing for the tight clearence spots, then thru a buckle then the chain. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/1984-09-01/Instant-Installation-Tire-Chains.aspx

here is the idea, mine was WAY heavier and homemade as my diesel F-550 2wd posi can really put some torque down (I spit off several) in the process of "unsticking" myself in the mud one time hauling a load of logs on a trailer. I got myself out though.

http://www.etrailer.com/Tire-Chains/Glac...CFUWo4AodvEwAAQ


Or this one, which I have used to buy pieces parts to retrofit my chains, they are just over the ridge from me and seem to be "the" ones for chains http://www.tirechain.com/?gclid=CI32hrTru7MCFYZM4AodSjYAww

Ironwood

having owned lots and lots of 4x4 over the last 40 years, i'm most impressed with the Toyota FJ Crusier. its even better than our 1973 FJ-40 Land Cruiser was, much better!

we bought a new FJ a couple years ago. where it can go is simply amazing. handles ice, snow and mud better than any other 4 wheel drive vehicle we've had. good ground clearance. getting over 20mpg average (worse was 18.5, best on hiway 24). uses real light-truck tires. they run around $30K new.

only negs are plastic bumpers (we replaced front with heavy duty ARB grill), not a lot of wheel-well room for heavy-duty snow chains, lousy visiblity in traffic, and not so great rear seat access for passengers.

can a bug out vehicle have AWD?

is it good enough for bug out situation?

I think it comes down to risk assessment & mitigation planning. What situations would cause me to bug out? Where would I be bugging out to? What weather conditions do I need to plan for? What possible routes will take me from my starting point(s) to my bug out location(s)?

When you can answer these things, the question then is do any of these potential bug out scenarios require a 4x4 vehicle? I'd also add in there, do I have the skills & knowledge to take advantage of 4x4 capabilities.

When I ask myself these questions, I don't see the need for a full-on 4x4 vehicle. It might be nice to have more capability than I think I need, but I don't think its really required.

why don't we seen Toyota land cruiser on sale in North America like in Australia? Land cruiser is a proven off road 4X4 compare to landrover or Jeep.

Depends on the vehicle. There are some truck based vehicles with AWD that handle extreme situations decently then there are AWD vehicles like minivans and subaru's that have better wet road handling than a non AWD minivan or car but are still car based and fail when you get into an extreme situation. Then there are situations where you get 36" of snow overnight and your better off staying home.

Toyota's cost more to buy and operate in the US than other brands. They load them down with luxury equipment to drive up profit and cost and the maintenance and parts are more $ driving up the overall cost.

I cannot say ENOUGH good about Subarus. We have owned 11 or so over the years. Started with an 81' 4x4 wagon, and the last one was an 03' Forester. Simply THE best winter/slippery raod vehical out there, sans a true 4x4 Audi Quattro with air assist locking diff's front/rear. They will out perform ANY SUV, and 4x4 truck out there for winter road profomance. As stated only thing that will cook you is DEEEP DEEP snow. We currently are Subie"less" as our third child in a car seat simultaneously and it just wouldnt work in a Subie. I have NEVER heard of ANY engine problem??? the only issue on older ones was "Y" pipes rotted out. The Legecy model was a bit of an odd one, made in US and not up to Subie standards.


Ironwood

Yup,great cars in snow and here is the head gasket problem list
--------------
Certain 1999 through 2002 2.5L equipped vehicles may experience an external coolant leak at the head gaskets. As a precautionary measure, SOA is adding a special conditioner to the engine cooling system. This conditioner prevents leaks from occurring and corrects existing leaks.
Only early Phase II 2.5 liter engines are affected. Phase I 2.5 liter engines (some 1999 model year and prior years) are not affected. Countermeasures applied to the manufacturing process for those 2002 and later VINS not affected by this campaign have eliminated the need for this campaign to be performed on those vehicles.
In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to the SUBARU vehicle cooling system whenever the engine coolant is replaced.
If the vehicle owner has this repair performed promptly, Subaru will extend warranty coverage on cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

sounds like K&W Block Sealer... used it in all the race car motors... especially if we cc'd the heads and had them cut..

I used to work for a guy that modified Subarus. We would get unmodified cars in all the time for head gasket/cooling leaks, specifically the 2.5L. A couple times it was bad enough to hydro-lock the block, requiring a completely new short block. Not a cheap repair, if I remember correctly it started around $1300 and could go way up from there if you needed a new short block (and that was us, I don't know what a dealer would charge).

Once that was fixed though, they were great engines. We had a couple WRX's that we replaced the block with aftermarket one, then we would add a larger turbo (with controller and injectors), turbo-back exhaust, front mount inter cooler, a stronger clutch disk, and tune them on the dyno. The cars would run 400+hp no problem as daily drivers.

They were stupid fast from a dig, a lot of fun to play with.

Bit OT but people have used Subarus sealer for cracked blocks in other vehicles with success,its supposed to be good stuff and the real deal.

I've pulled enough out of 6" of snow with my stock 4x4 truck to know they are not all that great. People in the hills of WV trade in their trucks for them and find out they don't do any better, use the same amount of gas going up the hills and take more maintenance then trade them in for another truck after a few years.

You are right,they lack clearance and power of a truck,but on ice/ snow they ARE awesome vehicles,they are The standard for 4x4 cars here,the largest market for them in the USA is right on this mtn,awesome machines.

Kept out of deep snow you wont see one on side of road here.And they will claw up ice chutes (roads here) with right tires thats unbelievable.

Subarus are also extremely popular in Alaska. More times than I can remember I've gone out to a parking lot and started to unlock the wrong car before I realized it wasnt mine, because there were so many in the lot than looked just like mine.

My personal experience has been that Subarus are very reliable. I have owned several over the years and have not had many significant mechanical problems. Clearance is an issue, but aside from that they are great cars.

Also very popular here in Maine...AWD is a helpful thing to have here and their system is excellent. I almost bought one the last time I was in the market for a car (shortly before moving here) but ended up with a Suzuki SX4 only because of the significant price difference between it and the Impreza. So far I have been happy with the Suzuki.

I had a tranny go out on one, but it was my fault for not checking the level, it was my 81. The seals on the output shafts leaked as I drove and "spit" it out, so I never saw a puddle.....First time I saw an early Subie I had just hole shot my pile of mud from my 4x4 truck and covered my buddies windsheild, I was on the floor laughing as the SPARE was under the hood over the transaxle (had to remove it to check the tranny fluid, hence my not checking it).

Thanks for the update on the head gasket, I had not heard that....

Ironwood