#245844 - 05/12/12 09:49 AM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: Chisel]
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Addict
Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 574
Loc: UK
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In one of Ray Meares programmes he recounts the story of a pilot who splashed down in Alaska. When he swam to shore Ray says 'his next decision saved his life' he took his clothes off, lit a fire and dried the clothes. Wet cotton is death. Note the order: wet cotton is many times faster cooling than even being naked.
Course the best option would be to wear clothes suitable for the climate you are flying over. Being in wet, but still warm, fleece that was rapidly drying itself would be no danger. qjs
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#245845 - 05/12/12 02:01 PM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: quick_joey_small]
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Geezer in Chief
Geezer
Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
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Being in wet, but still warm, fleece that was rapidly drying itself would be no danger. qjs I would agree that polypro fleece is wonderful stuff and i have had significant success with it at alleviating hypothermia, but if you become hypothermic, it alone will not pull you out of the danger zone. You need a warmer environment, usually achieved by starting a fire. A good hot meal helps as well. The insidious thing about H is that one of the first body systems to come under attack is whatever higher reasoning capabilities you may possess, rendering you less capable of recognizing the problem enveloping you. Been down that road and it is not very nice. On at least one occasion, I am pretty sure I was wearing synthetics and little or no cotton. About the only cotton items I will carry any more are bandannas and the occasional boony hat. Building a fire is often the difference between life and death in cold weather situations.
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Geezer in Chief
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#245848 - 05/12/12 04:38 PM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: bacpacjac]
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Snake_Doctor
Unregistered
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Whiny guy was pretty irritating. He could have laid on half that blanket and covered with the rest, instead of laying on bare ground. Or better, made am open type shelter where he lay on half while the rest reflected the heat of a low, full length fire. A technique I scoffed at until I tried it one fall night. Also they all could have used more natural materials in shelter construction.
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#245871 - 05/14/12 05:08 PM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: ]
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Old Hand
Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
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Ok, I watched the "Cold Weather Break Down" series of videos this weekend. In this scenario, there was no excuse. They started out dry, surrounded by tons of dry leaves. I can only image how comfortable they would have been if they had just built the second half of their shelter and used the fire only for cooking.
Seems like the first instinct is often to build a fire. Perhaps if you're already in danger of hypothermia you need to get the fire going before you're incapacitated, but otherwise, I'd start on my shelter first.
This "stay warm by the fire all night" madness has got to stop. Once you build an open shelter with a fire in front of it, you're a slave to the fire. You spend precious calories hauling wood and you can never sleep. I wonder if anyone's ever been killed by trying to maintain their fire...
As for their theory that if they had made the shelter smaller it would have been "easier to heat", it wouldn't have helped very much. With a fire in the open, it heats by radiation only. Unlike inside your house, there is no warm air to speak of. What radiation giveth, convection and conduction taketh away.
By the way, just staying the the vehicle would have been a better option. It would have become an "ice box" perhaps, but what would you call an open lean-to?
All that being said, I actually like this new format of videos! Its neat to see real people making the same kind of mistakes that I have made and learned from. It demonstrates how all the book knowledge in the world only goes so far. At some point you have to get experience. Can't wait to watch the Altoids tin series.
Edited by thseng (05/14/12 05:46 PM) Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
- Tom S.
"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."
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#245898 - 05/15/12 03:43 AM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: Chisel]
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Snake_Doctor
Unregistered
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Had my own cold weater/hypothermia test on Mothers day. Was in town visiting my mother and she needed some things from the store so I decided to stretch my legs and walked. It's a bit over a mile from her house there. Clouds were in the far distance to tje south. On the way I noticed heavier clouds rolling in from the west. Already a few blocks away from her home I proceeded. I have long legs and wal fast. Dropping off the disc at redbox was only a few blocks more but the temprature was dropping and it was getting dark at just short of 3 PM/ I hurried through the store and came out to find it dark enough to be dusk. I have long legs and am used to walking and running but halfway back it started to rain. I was dressed in mesh Nike trails that have seen better days, thin socks from wal-mart, jeans, tee shirt and a light denim shirt, open, to cover my EDC toys and a baseball cap. The rain started to sting the back of my neck. I thought it was because it was driven by the high winds. Then I noticed white flecks going past and thought snow. Nope it was pea sized hail. Within thirty very fast paces it was coming down hard. I was in the open with no cover so crowded against a trumpet vinne bush and tried to bury my oversized self in it. It offered some protection. For a whole miniute. Then the hail shifted direction and I was force to move a few feet and hold a plastic bag of groceries on my head to protect my ears from further battering. I was soaked through and in a minute the gutters were over flying and it began to come down harder. I was considering risking a run the two plus blocks to the house when the man of the house called me up on thier porch for shelter/ Fortunately I heard him over my mp-3 player. We stood there and talked as I became borderline hypothermic. Finally the hail stopped and I thanked him before walking the rest of the way in the driving rain. By the time I arrived at my mothers I was shivering and it was getting hard to walk in wet denim. Her yard looked like snow had fallen. It was difficult to get in the house and I had to go out to the Hummer to get spare clothing. Wet denim is also hard to get off when you are shaking. Finally in dry clothing and a wool commando sweater I turned on the heater, which I had been meaning to disable for the summer and made a huge mug of smoke chaser tea. It took hours to get warm and I was sick all night and tired most of today. It had been a very warm day and we live in the desert, but that fifteen minutes I was in the bush being battered could have been very bad under wilderness conditions. So I suggest people train for that type of surprise. I know I will be.
Edited by Snake_Doctor (05/15/12 04:02 AM)
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#245904 - 05/15/12 04:12 AM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: thseng]
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Geezer in Chief
Geezer
Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
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This "stay warm by the fire all night" madness has got to stop. Once you build an open shelter with a fire in front of it, you're a slave to the fire. You spend precious calories hauling wood and you can never sleep. I wonder if anyone's ever been killed by trying to maintain their fire...
Oh dear, what ever shall we do - build a fire or a shelter first? Decision, decisions.... I all depends on the specific situation, especially the weather conditions. Sometimes shelter is easy and on occasion impossibly difficult. The same is true with fires. The easiest shelter to acquire is that provided by a rock shelter or overhanging ledge. Not only is it quick and easy - just move in - but the easiest and best nights I have spent outdoors have been camping in rock shelters. Dry and comfortable and they provide ideal conditions for a fire. A good rock shelter can surpass the best tent for comfort and protection. On the other hand you can spend a lot of time digging a now cave, erecting an elaborate rush lean to when a fire and a tarp would provide all you need. I have been a 'slave to my campfire" many time and I always got plenty of sleep, or at least rest. The precious calories devoted to gathering firewood also warmed me up. Even on my worst nights, when I truly did not get much rest due to cold and storms, I have always been surprised at how much better I performed the next morning. Ideally, a fire and the shelter should work together to warm those involved. The drawback to a fire without a reflective shield is that one side of your precious bod will be nice and toasty, perhaps overheated, while the side away from the fire is extremely cold. Even if someone may have been killed tring to maintain their fire, which i seriously doubt, many times more have been killed by their inability to start and/or maintain their fire.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief
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#245907 - 05/15/12 10:00 AM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: quick_joey_small]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
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In one of Ray Meares programmes he recounts the story of a pilot who splashed down in Alaska. When he swam to shore Ray says 'his next decision saved his life' he took his clothes off, lit a fire and dried the clothes. Wet cotton is death. Note the order: wet cotton is many times faster cooling than even being naked.
Course the best option would be to wear clothes suitable for the climate you are flying over. Being in wet, but still warm, fleece that was rapidly drying itself would be no danger. qjs Actually, I'd disagree with this. Being in clothes that are drying WOULD be an issue. Why? Because evaporation is one way that heat is lost (along with convection, conduction, and radiation). So, yes, you'd be warmer than in cotton, but you'd still be losing heat. Worse if there was a wind (evaporation plus convection). Worse if you're sitting on a cold substance while doing it (add in conduction). And you're going to radiate heat anyway since there's a temperature difference between your body and the environment you're in. Clothes don't "warm you" per se. They just slow the rate of heat loss to the environment. Your body does the work. Assuming, of course, that you're not carrying some hand warmers, sitting in front of a fire, etc.
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#245910 - 05/15/12 01:05 PM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: MDinana]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
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Actually, I'd disagree with this. Being in clothes that are drying WOULD be an issue. Why? Because evaporation is one way that heat is lost (along with convection, conduction, and radiation). You would think, but my real world experiences have been otherwise. I have, on several occasions (classes and training) worn fleece in the water during some very cold weather. Upon leaving the water, the fleece drained excess water rapidly and kept me quite warm as they dried. I believe fleece, like wool has the ability to provide insulation even when wet. Just my experience- Pete
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#245915 - 05/15/12 04:06 PM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: Chisel]
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Addict
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 418
Loc: St. Petersburg, Florida
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I would have to agree with Pete, my experience (though with wool and wool fleece) is that I stayed warm, or got warm while wearing the clothing. Taking it off and wringing water out is a good idea for wool, not as important for fleece. A rain jacket eliminates most evaporation, which will help till you have a fire going.
Thseng
"This "stay warm by the fire all night" madness has got to stop. "
It is not madness. I have spent hundreds of nights out in Baker, Whelen and Forester tents as well as with lean to's made with tarps, boughs or even space blankets (GREAT reflectors) in many environments (most of them with nights below 5, often below 0). I might have had to get up once or twice (now, at my age, that is common even at home) but I always got a good night of sleep. Most of the time with a sleeping bag, but too often without.
The answer to the question still depends on the situation. What do you have with you, what are you wearing, etc.?
Respectfully,
Jerry
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#245917 - 05/15/12 05:49 PM
Re: COLD situation priorities
[Re: hikermor]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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This "stay warm by the fire all night" madness has got to stop. Once you build an open shelter with a fire in front of it, you're a slave to the fire. You spend precious calories hauling wood and you can never sleep. I wonder if anyone's ever been killed by trying to maintain their fire...
Oh dear, what ever shall we do - build a fire or a shelter first? Decision, decisions.... This past weekend. my son and I faced windy, rainy conditions. We started mostly dry and got settled into camp before the wind and rainy really kicked up. Our priorities were: 1. Get a sustainable fire going 2. Set up our shelter (we brought a pre-made one, coupled with a tarp, so didn't need to spend much time on the shelter) 3. Once the fire was sustainable, we boiled water as we foraged for enough wood to last through the night It worked really well. We stayed warm and dry all night but, to thseng's point, I was up all night maintaining the fire and watching for any embers that popped into the shelter.
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