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#242780 - 03/09/12 07:53 AM Bear attacks vs armed people
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
Having a gun makes no difference in the outcome of bear attacks!

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/03/08/2058759/gun-is-no-insurance-policy-in.html

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#242781 - 03/09/12 09:31 AM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Bingley]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3162
Loc: Big Sky Country
I would imagine the number of fatalities to the bears probably goes way down when the human is unarmed!
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

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#242787 - 03/09/12 03:02 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Bingley]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
there's was a thread on this a while ago.

-john

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#242791 - 03/09/12 03:58 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Bingley]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
Sorry for the duplication. I was busy fighting off bears...

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#242796 - 03/09/12 04:13 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Bingley]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3840
Loc: USA
Some very interesting things said in that article:

Quote:
"Guns are great, but for a gun to be great you have to be very, very good. No one ever practices on a 500-pound animal charging at you through the brush at 10 meters. They practice on paper targets," he added. "That's a big, big difference from being in the moment of stress."


Totally agreed. I highly recommend that people carrying guns for self-defense should be trained, and not just shooting paper targets on a square range. Training to shoot under stress is key.

Regarding handguns:

Quote:
"That's surprising because some believe that handguns have no place in bear safety," Smith said. "But they are much more maneuverable and carried more accessibly. A majority of bears go to extreme lengths to avoid people. When an encounter occurs, it is in close quarters and poor visibility. They are on their back shooting the bear in the mouth."


Handguns are often far more useful in close quarters encounters, especially in the brush.

Quote:
Van Daele observed that many Alaska bear encounters may not appear in Smith's historical data in instances where no person or bear was hurt. Alaskans often travel armed in the backcountry. Positive outcomes where a person deterred an attack with a shotgun blast directed over a bear's head may very well never get reported, he said.


Emphasis added.

My belief is that a trained person with a gun is safer than he or she would be without it. Training in this context means knowing how to avoid bear encounters as well as knowing how to shoot under stress.

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#242798 - 03/09/12 04:47 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Bingley]
Denis Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/09/09
Posts: 631
Loc: Calgary, AB
I believe this is the original discussion referred to above: Teens mauled by grizzly in survival skills course

That said, the article you refer to brings the results of an additional study to the table that I don't think we had during that discussion. While there were the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service's study results comparing firearms to bear spray, I believe we only had Dr. Tom Smith's study on the effectiveness bear spray ... now it looks like we have the results of his study on firearm effectiveness too. The more information we have, the better.

Here's a good quote from the study's author from the university's press release that sums things up for me:

“People should consider carrying a non-lethal deterrent such as bear spray,” said Smith, a gun owner himself. “It’s much easier to deploy, it’s less cumbersome and its success rate in these situations is higher than guns.”

Originally Posted By: chaosmagnet
Quote:
Van Daele observed that many Alaska bear encounters may not appear in Smith's historical data in instances where no person or bear was hurt. Alaskans often travel armed in the backcountry. Positive outcomes where a person deterred an attack with a shotgun blast directed over a bear's head may very well never get reported, he said.

Emphasis added.

With respect to this, wouldn't a bear banger do the same thing? I'm not saying the shotgun is necessarily a bad idea, but I'm just not sure that its the only tool that can provide this benefit (i.e., make a loud bang to scare the bear away).
_________________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order — luck, people call it. Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time; this is called bad luck. Roald Amundsen

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#242799 - 03/09/12 05:15 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Bingley]
Basecamp Offline
Member

Registered: 11/08/07
Posts: 107
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By: Bingley
Having a gun makes no difference in the outcome of bear attacks!

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/03/08/2058759/gun-is-no-insurance-policy-in.html


"Longtime bear biologist Tom Smith and colleagues analyzed 269 incidents of close-quarter bear-human conflict in Alaska between 1883 and 2009 in which a firearm was involved. They found the gun made no statistical difference in the outcome of these encounters, which resulted in 151 human injuries and 172 bear fatalities."

I'm not a scientist or a bear expert, but I find flaws in both your reasoning and the statement in the article.
The study was of 269 incidents where the human was armed with a firearm. Out of 269 incidents, they tallied 151 human injuries and 172 bear fatalities.

From that, he and you draw the conclusion that firearms made no difference in the outcome.

A scientific study would have included (at least) groups of armed and unarmed encounters. But then, attempting to study the "unarmed encounters" may leave you frustrated at the difficulty in locating witnesses. There are the occasional findings of finger bones in bear scat that could bear (npi) witness, I suppose.

Let's see, I would guess that if there were no firearms involved that there would have been NO bear fatalities and the outcome would have been leaning toward: Bears: 269, Humans: 0. Does that make sense?

172 bear deaths in a study of 269 cases where there would have been NO bear deaths without firearms is called "no statistical difference in the outcome of these encounters". ? ? ! ! ! Really?

Does the biologist have his own agenda?? There were NO deaths of humans mentioned. How many deaths of humans would there have been without the firearm available?

Firearms used to be called "Equalizers" for a reason. They give you a chance, but you must have the training, knowledge, discipline and ability to use them correctly.

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#242801 - 03/09/12 05:28 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Basecamp]
Snake_Doctor
Unregistered


I agree. I always go armed in bear country and in Alaska. The people who had guns obviously weren't proficient with them. A 300 grain solid from a .44 magnum does wonders for a bear problem when properly placed in the vitals.

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#242802 - 03/09/12 05:31 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Bingley]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
[quote=Bingley]Having a gun makes no difference in the outcome of bear attacks!quote]

I guess that is why no one in bear country carries a gun! No one! - Alaska State Troopers, pilots, hunters, fisherman, guides, residents. They all learned from the real experts like - Timothy Treadwell (4/29/57-10/5/03). I think he died hugging a tree.
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PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
N43.9668 W116.1888

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#242803 - 03/09/12 05:37 PM Re: Bear attacks vs armed people [Re: Basecamp]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
Originally Posted By: Basecamp
I'm not a scientist or a bear expert, but I find flaws in both your reasoning and the statement in the article.
The study was of 269 incidents where the human was armed with a firearm. Out of 269 incidents, they tallied 151 human injuries and 172 bear fatalities.

From that, he and you draw the conclusion that firearms made no difference in the outcome.

A scientific study would have included (at least) groups of armed and unarmed encounters. But then, attempting to study the "unarmed encounters" may leave you frustrated at the difficulty in locating witnesses. There are the occasional findings of finger bones in bear scat that could bear (npi) witness, I suppose.


Here's a paragraph that addresses your concern:

Quote:
The researchers found no statistical difference in the outcome (no injury, injury or fatality) when they compared those who used their gun in an aggressive encounter (229 instances) to those who had firearms but did not use them (40 instances).


From: http://news.byu.edu/archive12-mar-bearsandguns.aspx

Keep in mind that these are news articles, not research reports where Smith presents his findings in a detailed, comprehensive manner suitable for scientific scrutiny. If you are interested, check out the next issue of the Journal of Wildlife Management.

This forum is not the place for debating gun rights and such. I'd suggest a bit of care and attention to what the researcher is trying to accomplish, giving him the benefit of doubt, before accusing him of having "hidden agendas."

Are for other posters clamoring about always carrying in bear country: it may be so that people carry firearms, but it does not alter the statistics. Just because I think having my little blanky with me prevents a meteor from falling on my head, and no meteor has yet fallen on my head, it doesn't mean the blanky is a good meteor repellant. If you have hard numbers to show that firearms give you a higher survival rate in bear encounters, please do share. Otherwise you need to respect the people who actually put in the work.


Edited by Bingley (03/09/12 05:45 PM)

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