Originally Posted By: Bingley
Originally Posted By: Basecamp
When you are faced with a lethal threat and ...
[quote=Basecamp]If you want to argue statistics, I don't have any handy. Let me give you an example of my thoughts on statistics: If statistics show that 6 in 7 folks survive a bear attack without a firearm and that one dies, would you want that one to be you or a member of your family?


You're saying that if you happen to the the unlucky one person, would you want to have a gun, right? What's motivated you to think about this, when what Smith is arguing is that there's little statistical difference between using and not using firearms in bear encounters? What you're thinking is "at least I'll have a fighting chance if I had a gun." Smith's research indicates that your chances aren't any better. You may still want to have a gun, perhaps because when the bear attacks you, you'll feel confident rather than helpless. This has to do with psychology than practicality. If SHTF, maybe you will be the small number of exceptions that manage to get off a well-placed shot. (And I hope you'll be able to pull this off.) Maybe you'll die trying to do that. (I hope not.) It's your prerogative to choose which path to go, not mine.

Again, I don't think this study says to disarm. Rather, it highlights the more crucial safety practices, and suggests that if you want to carry, carry a pistol and get ready for the difficulties of shooting a 500 lb charging animal.

It also says you'l have to fill out quite a bit of paperwork if you kill a bear in self defense. So pack a pen, too.

My only agenda here is to get people to understand what the research says (according to the news articles anyway). I have no inherent interest one way or the other about carrying in bear country.

My motivation for thinking about this doesn't have anything to do with being lucky or unlucky, but being prepared. It involves having been involved in training and being involved in or studying several serious situations, not specific to bears, but not excluding them. My thinking is more along the lines of "being able to handle whatever comes at me" (in a broad sense) with multi-purpose gear rather than carrying a bulky canister that may provide some protection from a specific threat. Consider the following: bears aren't the only threat in the wild, pepper spray doesn't work 100% of the time, I have been through a few chemical weapons courses (and been trained as an instructor) and know that it does affect me 100% of the time. Firearms can be used for signaling and for food, but pepper spray is not as efficient at either.

I have never shot or killed a bear, but know someone who has done so for protection ( and he was a bit disappointed in .45LC). I have shot and killed a brahma bull (~1200 lb. ) who had just charged and been shot by someone I was with. (Did I want to? No. Was it a one-shot-kill? No. Was it legal? Yes. Was paperwork done? Yes, and since the owner of the bull was a superior court judge, the paperwork was very detailed.) We all have some paradigm which shape our responses. It is good to read studies on both sides, understand what is being said and what is not (and perhaps, why) and figure out if it applies to you and how.

I think one of the things found in studies is that, if the person is using the right tool for the job and that person is adept with the tool they are using, the chances that the tool works for them is greatly increased. I don't believe that everyone should carry a gun, I do believe that if they choose to do so, they should become adept with it prior to carrying it... and, yes, become familiar with the aftermath.

I believe this, and many other articles, report dangerously misleading conclusions based on incomplete, misread or disregarded data.

I also believe that we could discuss this at length, bringing in "experts" defending different sides of the discussion, and still arrive at no defining solution.

I understand that there are other factors that matter to keep us safe, I'm focussing beyond that, at the point you are facing an attack.

We all have to make decisions based on our beliefs and what our heart and reasoning tell us to, and face the consequences of doing so. Every situation is different and every person's ability is different.