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#240119 - 01/26/12 04:35 PM Cave Rescue
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
We had a cave rescue the other evening:

Fortunately, the cavers accompanying the victim were able to facilitate most of the rescue, since between the Montgomery County USAR Team, Washington County Special Operations Team and our team (Frederick County ATR Team); we only had a few rescuers that were small enough to even attempt entering the cave system.

The news media indicated that rescue crews freeded the man, when in fact it was his fellow cavers that did most of the work.

Pete

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#240120 - 01/26/12 04:43 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
jzmtl Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/18/10
Posts: 530
Loc: Montreal Canada
I guess that's one situation where it's advantageous to be small eh? Ability and expertise is useless if you can't fit.

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#240121 - 01/26/12 05:09 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: jzmtl]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Absolutely frustrating, but sometimes all you can do is to standby.

Afterwards we did a quick hot wash (debriefing), where we discussed the liability issues of giving rescue equipment (air chisel) to non-rescue personnel. It worked out and I am not sure what else we could have done, but it could have gone very badly.

Pete

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#240122 - 01/26/12 05:09 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: jzmtl]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Shades of Floyd Collins...Cave rescues offer daunting challenges in an environment that is unfamiliar to many people. Progress is often measured in inches.
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#240139 - 01/26/12 09:03 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
So ... they didn't have to chisel his body into two pieces to get him out? Chris Angel - the magician - must have been disappointed to hear that. Hahaha !

Pete2

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#240143 - 01/26/12 09:39 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: Pete]
paramedicpete Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1920
Loc: Frederick, Maryland
Quote:
So ... they didn't have to chisel his body into two pieces to get him out?


We did not have to cut him in half, but the Shock Trauma GO Team Shock Trauma Go Team was transported to the scene for possible amputation of his foot/leg. Although in this case it would have been unlikely since access to him was limited to all but the very smallest.

Pete

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#240150 - 01/26/12 11:38 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3842
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
the Shock Trauma GO Team Shock Trauma Go Team was transported to the scene


France has a similar capability called SAMU nationwide. I've never needed medical care in France but from what I read it's pretty cool. I'm glad that at least some areas of the US have something like this.

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#240152 - 01/26/12 11:58 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: chaosmagnet]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
My question as well...What states have this capability? California?
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#240197 - 01/27/12 11:03 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Absolutely frustrating, but sometimes all you can do is to standby.

Afterwards we did a quick hot wash (debriefing), where we discussed the liability issues of giving rescue equipment (air chisel) to non-rescue personnel. It worked out and I am not sure what else we could have done, but it could have gone very badly.

Pete

I would not have been at all surprised if some places would let the guy die rather than accept the liability for loaning some tools out.
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Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

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#240198 - 01/28/12 12:25 AM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: paramedicpete
Absolutely frustrating, but sometimes all you can do is to standby.

Afterwards we did a quick hot wash (debriefing), where we discussed the liability issues of giving rescue equipment (air chisel) to non-rescue personnel. It worked out and I am not sure what else we could have done, but it could have gone very badly.

Pete


The SAR unit with which I was affiliated included several individuals whose prime outdoor activity was caving, as well as a fair number who were reasonably comfortable in the cave environment. Fortunately we were never at the point where we needed to use power tools. We would undertake about one cave operation a year.

One of the advantages of a volunteer organization is diversity. Several of the climber/caver types were professional engineers, which was a big help when weird rigging was required.


Edited by hikermor (01/28/12 12:27 AM)
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#240206 - 01/28/12 05:41 AM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: Pete]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3240
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Pete
So ... they didn't have to chisel his body into two pieces to get him out? Chris Angel - the magician - must have been disappointed to hear that. Hahaha !

Pete2


Nothing funny about being forced to stand back and watch. Not funny at all. Respectfully suggest that you reserve your humour for a more appropriate place.

-Doug

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#240214 - 01/28/12 07:27 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: dougwalkabout]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
No offense intended.
Since the outcome was happy and no-one was hurt - I was assuming this was not too serious.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (01/28/12 10:13 PM)

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#240240 - 01/29/12 05:59 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3240
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Fair enough. You caught me at a grouchy moment.

Back to the OP:

The complexities of a rescue in such a tight cave boggle my mind. It must have been serious if they were willing to use an air chisel. As I understand it, people in the caving community are quite protective of the caves themselves, and are adamant about no-trace, no modification. They been known to deliberately break a collar bone, for example, to get someone out of a squeeze.

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#240255 - 01/30/12 12:57 AM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: dougwalkabout]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
They been known to deliberately break a collar bone, for example, to get someone out of a squeeze.


I have seen this assertion before, and I must say I am profoundly skeptical. There are good accounts of several notable cave rescues that have involved tight squeezes, that were quite challenging for the victim and the rescuers, but I have never heard of anyone deliberately breaking bones. Such a procedure could easily create complications that would worsen the situation.

I also doubt that it would do any good. For males, the critical dimension is chest thickness, front to back. Some cavers squeeze through by exhaling, pushing forward, and then breathing. That is about where I draw the line on forward progress. For women, the pelvic area and hips are the critical areas. One can generally slip the shoulders through by extending one arm and trailing the other. You need to plan ahead to decide which hand you want forward.

Of course, this does get more complicated with a victim who is already injured. In one situation, we were able to bring the victim to a squeeze, whereupon we took him off the stretcher, gently wiggled him through the squeeze, and then placed him on another stretcher. That was dicey enough, because we were all concerned about occult fractures and injuries. I believe it took us a good hour to progress about three feet.


Edited by hikermor (01/30/12 04:56 AM)
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#240261 - 01/30/12 04:20 AM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3240
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I confess that I may be piling hearsay upon hearsay. I have not seen this with my own eyes, and it may indeed be a grand fiction.
So take it with a big pinch of salt. Frankly, you couldn't get me into a squeeze at gunpoint.

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#240292 - 01/30/12 08:52 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: dougwalkabout]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
I surely hope that these cavers understand that "limb amputation" is one possible outcome. Speaking for myself - I would find that a teensy bit discouraging :-)

I only tried a squeeze cave move once in my life. I was a climber - but never a real caver (unless the caves were the kind you can stand up in). But once a group of climbers decided to go do a cave ... just for the heck of it. In the middle, there was one location where you had to squeeze through by lying on your back and contorting your whole body. I was the tallest and biggest person in the group. I made it halfway - and wasn't sure at all I could get thru. Even worse, I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to retreat back out ... if I kept going. I decided to bail out on that scenario - and managed to exit back to the cave entrance. Hahaha ! I guess you can say that I'm no serious caver. But I was not disappointed at the decision.

Pete2



Edited by Pete (01/30/12 08:54 PM)

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#240303 - 01/30/12 09:58 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
The cave environment is quite different and requires some adaptation. The first time I was underground for more than two hours, i began to feel very oppressed, just thinking of all the solid rock that was above me.. With time and numerous trips, that feeling went away.

Getting used to squeezes is the same sort of thing. Gradual exposure gives you an idea of where your limits lie. I got better at it, but not nearly as good as some of my caving fanatic friends - they would perfect their skills above ground by crawling through chairs.
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#240441 - 02/02/12 04:23 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Virginia_Mark Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 80
Man that would be my worst fear, stuck in a cave alone...
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