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#240206 - 01/28/12 05:41 AM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: Pete]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3240
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Pete
So ... they didn't have to chisel his body into two pieces to get him out? Chris Angel - the magician - must have been disappointed to hear that. Hahaha !

Pete2


Nothing funny about being forced to stand back and watch. Not funny at all. Respectfully suggest that you reserve your humour for a more appropriate place.

-Doug

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#240214 - 01/28/12 07:27 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: dougwalkabout]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
No offense intended.
Since the outcome was happy and no-one was hurt - I was assuming this was not too serious.

Pete2


Edited by Pete (01/28/12 10:13 PM)

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#240240 - 01/29/12 05:59 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3240
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Fair enough. You caught me at a grouchy moment.

Back to the OP:

The complexities of a rescue in such a tight cave boggle my mind. It must have been serious if they were willing to use an air chisel. As I understand it, people in the caving community are quite protective of the caves themselves, and are adamant about no-trace, no modification. They been known to deliberately break a collar bone, for example, to get someone out of a squeeze.

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#240255 - 01/30/12 12:57 AM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: dougwalkabout]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Originally Posted By: dougwalkabout
They been known to deliberately break a collar bone, for example, to get someone out of a squeeze.


I have seen this assertion before, and I must say I am profoundly skeptical. There are good accounts of several notable cave rescues that have involved tight squeezes, that were quite challenging for the victim and the rescuers, but I have never heard of anyone deliberately breaking bones. Such a procedure could easily create complications that would worsen the situation.

I also doubt that it would do any good. For males, the critical dimension is chest thickness, front to back. Some cavers squeeze through by exhaling, pushing forward, and then breathing. That is about where I draw the line on forward progress. For women, the pelvic area and hips are the critical areas. One can generally slip the shoulders through by extending one arm and trailing the other. You need to plan ahead to decide which hand you want forward.

Of course, this does get more complicated with a victim who is already injured. In one situation, we were able to bring the victim to a squeeze, whereupon we took him off the stretcher, gently wiggled him through the squeeze, and then placed him on another stretcher. That was dicey enough, because we were all concerned about occult fractures and injuries. I believe it took us a good hour to progress about three feet.


Edited by hikermor (01/30/12 04:56 AM)
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#240261 - 01/30/12 04:20 AM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: paramedicpete]
dougwalkabout Offline
Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3240
Loc: Alberta, Canada
I confess that I may be piling hearsay upon hearsay. I have not seen this with my own eyes, and it may indeed be a grand fiction.
So take it with a big pinch of salt. Frankly, you couldn't get me into a squeeze at gunpoint.

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#240292 - 01/30/12 08:52 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: dougwalkabout]
Pete Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 1372
I surely hope that these cavers understand that "limb amputation" is one possible outcome. Speaking for myself - I would find that a teensy bit discouraging :-)

I only tried a squeeze cave move once in my life. I was a climber - but never a real caver (unless the caves were the kind you can stand up in). But once a group of climbers decided to go do a cave ... just for the heck of it. In the middle, there was one location where you had to squeeze through by lying on your back and contorting your whole body. I was the tallest and biggest person in the group. I made it halfway - and wasn't sure at all I could get thru. Even worse, I wasn't sure I'd ever be able to retreat back out ... if I kept going. I decided to bail out on that scenario - and managed to exit back to the cave entrance. Hahaha ! I guess you can say that I'm no serious caver. But I was not disappointed at the decision.

Pete2



Edited by Pete (01/30/12 08:54 PM)

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#240303 - 01/30/12 09:58 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: Pete]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
The cave environment is quite different and requires some adaptation. The first time I was underground for more than two hours, i began to feel very oppressed, just thinking of all the solid rock that was above me.. With time and numerous trips, that feeling went away.

Getting used to squeezes is the same sort of thing. Gradual exposure gives you an idea of where your limits lie. I got better at it, but not nearly as good as some of my caving fanatic friends - they would perfect their skills above ground by crawling through chairs.
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#240441 - 02/02/12 04:23 PM Re: Cave Rescue [Re: hikermor]
Virginia_Mark Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 80
Man that would be my worst fear, stuck in a cave alone...
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