Guys, to echo chaosmagnet,

We can debate the issue of how nice to be quite endlessly.

At this point, let's change the focus of this thread to concentrate on what can be done to be prepared for winter driving, what kind of gear would have been helpful in this particular case, winter physiology, etc.

I think we've discussed the ground rules enough on this thread. I don't mean to overly limiting of debate, but I will delete any further posts not connected to pertinent winter/winter driving techniques, prep, gear, etc. Let us speak not ill of the dead nor of each other.

HJ
Deputy

There is a lot to be learnt from real life incidents. I think it is fair to say that many people are related to people who are UNprepared. It is , therefore, extremely useful to elaborate on what to do in such cases if relatives , spouses, etc. continue to ignore preparedness while making decisions that affect whole family.

We do not know what exactly happened in any given story , but we can draw a possible scenario and study it for the sake of learning and mental practice.

Just my 2¢

When I drive anywhere outside SOCAL this time of year I always make sure to add my winter kit (a duffel bag with wool & fleece blankets, wool clothing and winter parka) alongside the 96 hr & GHB kits that are always in the back of the truck.
* 96 hour kit is a Rubbermaid container with MRE's and freeze dried dinner entree's, water, a wool blanket, FAK and signalling gear (strobe lights, chemical lights, mirror).
* GHB is basically a Camelbak based kit and includes a PLB -- which makes it all the more of a Get-Home-Bag.
Even within SOCAL there are mountain passes which can become hazardous. But anytime I go that far, I'm leaving SOCAL and probably leaving the state. The winter-kit was put together from extra's with the Siskiyou Mountains (Northern CA/Southern Oregon) in mind.

We often hear/read about folks getting stuck out and about in winter -- it happens and it can happen to any of us too. Being a member of ETS forum is no vaccine to being caught unprepared. I take threads such as this as a serious reminder to not become complacent. Thanks.

I think there are two aspects of this story that can be beneficial examining: how you can prepare to survive this type of situation, and how you can avoid ending up in this type of situation.

Regarding this first aspect, it seems prudent to prepare for this as has been discussed here and elswhere. Dressing for the weather, not the car ride. Having a good winter emergency kit, methods for making fire, etc. There can be freak occurrances where you could find yourself in this situation despite your good decision making; and, perhaps more likely, we are all capable of making bad decisions no matter how much of this stuff we know.

The second aspect, avoidance, is where I think it especially makes sense for us to continue looking at current events eventhough we've discussed very similar cases in the past. The main thing worth looking at here, from my perspective at least, is the human aspect of the decision making process that led to the disaster.

In retrospect, Davis clearly sees the error he made:

"I should have turned around right then and gone about 5 miles back to where I had turned in," Davis said. "So, I goofed right there."

I wouldn't be surprised if a man like Davis, given his future as a hypothetical situation would have made the right choices to avoid disaster. There's every possibility he could have seen the Kim situation retold on TV and easily identified what went wrong and what Kim should have done.

But I think things often look much different when we are in the driver's seat.

Looking at the brief description from the linked article we see a glimpse of the progressive, worsening nature of Davis' situation:

The couple drove their Buick for miles up the forest road, which became more and more impassable the farther they traveled. The car bottomed out several times, punching a hole in the transmission oil pan and making it impossible to drive anymore.

I can see how this could have played out - we're often driven to overcome adversity rather than give into it. Maybe it's a combination of determination, optimism, pride and, heck, even testosterone that motivates us to believe we can overcome whatever is being thrown at us.

I know I'm not the only guy who when faced with things like brutal weather and dicey road conditions has reacted with the determination that I would not allow the weather to stop me; that I would overcome and not allow defeat.

Maybe by seeing these events come to pass and examining the details we will be reminded when and if our day comes that overcoming the obstacles in our path is not the only answer. Maybe under our confidence we will be reminded that other confident men took this path to the detriment of their family. Maybe that will help us make better decisions and stay out of the headlines.

One thing that this incident has done is firmed my resolve even more: I'm saving my pennies to either buy an InReach if they come out with an iPhone-compatible version, or I'll end up buying a PLB. I'm pretty well-prepared to spend a weekend in a snowbank or similar location, but I'd sure rather have good communications to be able to avoid such.

Thanks gang. I'm glad that this thread is back where it should be.

This story has made me reflect on my two vehicle malfunctions last winter. (Lost the interior heater blower fan on the first, and the catalytic converter the on second.) My family (DH, DD and DS) were lucky that both happened close to home, relative to where we were planning on travelling during those trips, and also on major well-travel roadways. If either happened later in the trip we could easily have been somewhere with no cel phone coverage and hardly any vehicles passing by. We didn't get stuck but both trips were slow and cold, and resulted in chilly diagnostic jerry-rigging time spent on the side of the road.

My family has always poked fun at my preparedness, especially the gear in my trunk, but not on those trips. It's easy to have a "it can't happen to me" attitude or to simply not think about it. Winter weather can be unpredictable and even if the worst doesn't happen, it's always preferrable to wait out whatever it is in comfort. My dad has always said "Travel not just to arrive but to survive!"

Also, filing a trip plan, including route and ETA is super important. If we had of broken down in the the middle of nowhere and weren't able to call them, key people knew what route we were taking and when we were expected. Even then we may have had to wait a while before a search started and found us so, again, waiting in comfort would have been preferable.

Blankets, extra hats, mitts and sweaters, water, food, a way to heat water, warm drinks, chemical warmers, flashlights, flares, etc... are all vital components of my witner car kit. I also tent, tarp, sleeping bag, paracord, fire starters, candles, shovel, etc. onboard in case we need to overnight, and on long trips we add snowpants for everyone too!

It's so easy to get started: Just go stand in your driveway on a cold day and think about what you wish you had with you and throw that in a bag in the trunk along with some snacks and water.

Going a bit off topic, but that reminds of a car we had years ago; the car had issues and I had already said enough was enough and that I wouldn't fix anything else on it. Of course it was the middle of winter so the next thing to go was the heater.

So here's a tip for those who may run into this in the future: if your heater goes out and its very cold out (i.e., middle of Canadian Prairies winter cold) the only way to see out of your windshield is to drive around with your windows down. Keeping the temperature the same inside & out keeps the windshield from freezing over inside.

We did that for a while until I broke down and bought a new car. In those days we would have definitely been prepared for the weather if the car broke down

Yes, good points.

The other thing that I think is worth considering, is when is the best choice to stay put, and when is the best choice to go seek help? Not an easy or cut and dried decision by any means. As we all know, the text book answer is to always stay put. Stay with the car....boat...snow machine...whatever. As a default option, this is good advice. It is much easier for searchers to find a fixed person. A car or boat or whatever is much easier object to spot than an individual person. The vehicle can provide shelter and other items you can use.

However, there are times when the default "stay where you are" option may not be the best choice. Some things to consider:
How soon will I be reported missing?
Does anyone have any idea where to start looking?
How likely (or not) is it that someone else will come along by shear chance?
How long can I survive in my present location? & Are there any immediate dangers staying where I am?
Is it reasonable to think I could walk out? How fit am I? How severe are the conditions?
Should we all try to walk out? Or does it make more sense for the strongest person to do it?

If thinking about walking out, always carefully consider the pros and cons of staying put vs self rescue. If you do decide to attempt to walk out, it is probably best to make that decision early, before you become exhausted, hypothermic, run out of food, etc.

It is interesting to me how this question paralles the current discussion on the "Best response to always get out of town?" thread.

Couple of observations:

1) When reviewed with the cliched 20/20 hindsight, it is extremely hard to keep in mind how the situation looks to the guy who's in it at the time, even if you now have accurate info (which we often don't). It's like the chief problem with portraying real history in a movie: you (as the audience) have lots of information and perspective the characters don't have. Think of a realistic war scene. So that they can be told the story, the audience has all kinds of info (where the enemy is, what the enemy's motives/plans are, etc) that the hero(es) lack. It is hard to convey the situation's chaos, ambiguity, and indecision plaguing the hero. Maybe a poor analogy but I hope you see what I mean.

2) The photos from the New Mexico story show an open landscape (no canopy). A $99 SPOT-2 "toy PLB" would likely have had no trouble getting a signal out.

An interesting test some day would be for peops to overnight in a campground -- in winter -- with only the stuff we normally carry in our vehicles.

And pretend the car is broken - so no heater, period.

Gaps in most of our preps would quickly appear. In my case, I really need to put my 20-degree or zero-degree sleeping bag in my SUV, and keep it there. Meanwhile, I have a fleece sleeping bag liner, chemical warmers, loads of fire-making materials (including fatwood).

The coldest temperature I've camped in was 19 degrees overnight - inside an unheated but insulated (R-11) teardrop trailer.

Not sure which sleeping bag I was using but I was also head-to-toe in fleece (hat, neck gaiter, mittens, socks, long underwear) and still I was cold. I slept okay but it was not a great night's sleep -- and that was in a much better situation than I would be in if I were stranded with my vehicle.

Toss into the equation the stress of actually being stranded and it really is unimaginable what would go through your mind and the effect of that on your physical wellbeing and decision making.

This past Saturday I had the edifying experience of a last-second decision to meet a friend for a walk with our pups at Great Falls National Park on the Potomac River outside the Beltway. I had a breakfast that morning so met my friend afterward at the park. I had worn or brought a few things in anticipation of the walk - Smartwool socks, hiking shoes, warm but not my warmest coat. I always have warm gloves/mittens in the car -- 24/7/365.

But I'd forgotten just how much colder the park could get compared to the restaurant area a few miles away. It was not windy at the restaurant and it was quite gusty at the park -- so a cold day at the restaurant became quite a lot colder at the river. And I'd taken some of my gear out of the car the previous weekend to make room for something I had to haul. My bag of fleece was one of the things no longer in the car.

Oh how I longed for my warmest fleece hat, ear muffs and neck gaiter -- which were at home, 14 miles away! Fortunately, I did have my BOB in the car and had winterized it recently -- in there was a balaclava and a fleece headband that has a slit for a golf/baseball hat to fit into.

A bit into our walk I was comfortable but as soon as I got home I dumped out that bag of fleece, broke it into ziplock freezer bags (hats, mittens, neck gaiters) and discovered that I could stuff them into a couple of interior sidewall compartments in the car. I now have three of each of those items in the car -- I like to have extras for friends or, in an emergency, strangers.

Today I went to the supermarket and bought some food items to be put into a Lock & Lock container and stored in the car for the winter.

Still, five days stranded in my vehicle on a snowy mountain road would be miserable and life-threatening.

And I'm nowhere near 80 years old.