New Mexico man recounts mountain ordeal that took life of wife http://bit.ly/w0t32g

Ouch. What a horrible price to pay for taking a short cut.

HJ

Removed by the sheriff.

Hey now. :-) Let's not forget she was an adult too and responsible for her own safety as much as he was.

"They had two sandwiches, four cookies, two chocolate bars and two cans of juice."

She could have just as easily packed an emergency kit for the car just as easily as he.

They were not prepared, they made some bad choices, and she paid for it. I'd say that was *their* fault, not *his* fault.

-john

Removed by the sheriff.
Sheesh.

I would bet cash that neither of them had proper preparations. So there! :-p

-john

There always seems to be a typical sequence of posts following an incident of this type, which is often taken straight from news accounts, which often omit relevant details and information.

We, fully informed and knowledgeable in matters of survival, then state and categorize their mistakes, generally listed as deviations from the Established Principles as listed in the Survival Manual, which we can all recite by heart.

Sometimes the criticism becomes astonishingly harsh and bitter. I wonder why sometimes.....

Posting and discussing these tragedies can be useful and informative and as cautionary tales, they can inform us. When I began hiking and climbing, it really helped me to read the analytical and informed accounts in Accidents in North American Mountaineering, the annual publication of the American Alpine Club.

I would like to think that we can ponder tragic situations of this type without dissing the unfortunate participants. The is very easy to do, but it doesn't move analysis forward. It does allow you to conclude that they were defective or uninformed, while we, embracing the Established Principles, are among the blessed. That might be just a little too simplistic.

I think if any of us lost our spouse (particularly in a 60 year long relationship - how many of us have a chance at that these days?) that would be plenty of tragedy enough, without the heartless comments of strangers.

Anyway, it is the Christmas season - joyeux noel and all that. Peace

This is really pushing it.

You need to check yourself.

Eighty-six and eighty-two years old, my grandparents ages when they died.

I'm surprised either lasted five days, let alone that one made it back alive.

The article says they'd had an adventurous life together, traveling to some challenging areas overseas.

Very sad. R.I.P. and condolences to the family.

I hope and pray that if I ever find myself in such a situation that I remember all these tragedies and not pursue a questionable "shortcut."


They accidentally ended up on a different highway. Realizing their mistake, the couple consulted a map and decided to take a forest road that connects back to the main road.

"I should have turned around right then and gone about 5 miles back to where I had turned in," Davis said. "So, I goofed right there."

Removed by the sheriff.
WTH?!!

Hey! If I had enough brain cells to understand, I'd be offended.

Seriously though, Sue, yes, you've got a valid point but ease up just a bit on the guy bashing. Rumor has it that some of the members on this forum are guys...

HJ

"The will to survive" is a big part of this story. It sounds like the wife gave up. May her soul rest in peace. I don't fault her for wanting to give up. She lived a long purposeful life of 82 years and was facing the agony of frostbite and a long struggle to crawl out of the wilderness. I don't know that I would give up 20 feet from the car, but I understand it. I just hope her family can come to grips with it and be at peace.

Removed the sheriff.
Good grief...

Truth be told, Susan, probably plenty of us on this forum have done lots of incredibly dumb things. I don't believe you have to pass any kind of test to post on ETS.

Easy to judge with hindsight- in this case I suggest it was agenuine misjudgement rather than stupidity and terribly unfortunate. Even those of us who pack some kit don't always have enough to get octogenarians through 5 days in a snowstorm.

I'd salute his courage and extend my sympathies.

As regards the gender bias - all I can tell ypu is that I am a man who preps (not as well as I should but still...) and have a wife, mother and sister who don't.

For some reason I still hold this seemingly misguided notion that ETS is a civilized corner of the internet and yet consistently posters her seem to thrive off of denigrating anyone who is unprepared or makes bad decisions. For that matter, it seems like dying in the wild is enough to bring down the vitriol of some, regardless of the evidence (or lack there of) of their personal culpability in causing the personal disaster; assumptions and caricatures often suffice in these cases.

Like you, I thought the point of bringing up these cases was to learn from these situations so that we can manage risk better, keeping ourselves and those we are with safer. Kicking people when they are down is not only crass, but it does nothing in achieving this goal.

+1 What Denis, JHikemor an Jim said. Let's focus on lessons learned and debating issues, not name-calling and rude or snide remarks. If you cannot be civil, please find someplace else to post.

In my recent post "They ran towards the gunfire" about the mass shooting at that hair salon in Seal Beach, California, one of the participants did read about it here on ETS and even signed up to respond! So, people really do read what we say.

Amen! I've been around for a couple of years, but don't post much because of my inexperience. But I always marvel at the experience, creativity, and advice on this site. I do learn an awful lot.

I've sent 4 or 5 people here who really could learn quite a bit, too. However, 2 of them said they would never return. One woman said too many here are unforgiving of mistakes, and a gentleman called it a site for "self-aggrandizing narcissists" after reading some vitriolic comments. Ouch!

We the moderators are going to be taking a harder line with the unpleasantness.


chaosmagnet

Guys, to echo chaosmagnet,

We can debate the issue of how nice to be quite endlessly.

At this point, let's change the focus of this thread to concentrate on what can be done to be prepared for winter driving, what kind of gear would have been helpful in this particular case, winter physiology, etc.

I think we've discussed the ground rules enough on this thread. I don't mean to overly limiting of debate, but I will delete any further posts not connected to pertinent winter/winter driving techniques, prep, gear, etc. Let us speak not ill of the dead nor of each other.

HJ
Deputy

There is a lot to be learnt from real life incidents. I think it is fair to say that many people are related to people who are UNprepared. It is , therefore, extremely useful to elaborate on what to do in such cases if relatives , spouses, etc. continue to ignore preparedness while making decisions that affect whole family.

We do not know what exactly happened in any given story , but we can draw a possible scenario and study it for the sake of learning and mental practice.

Just my 2¢

When I drive anywhere outside SOCAL this time of year I always make sure to add my winter kit (a duffel bag with wool & fleece blankets, wool clothing and winter parka) alongside the 96 hr & GHB kits that are always in the back of the truck.
* 96 hour kit is a Rubbermaid container with MRE's and freeze dried dinner entree's, water, a wool blanket, FAK and signalling gear (strobe lights, chemical lights, mirror).
* GHB is basically a Camelbak based kit and includes a PLB -- which makes it all the more of a Get-Home-Bag.
Even within SOCAL there are mountain passes which can become hazardous. But anytime I go that far, I'm leaving SOCAL and probably leaving the state. The winter-kit was put together from extra's with the Siskiyou Mountains (Northern CA/Southern Oregon) in mind.

We often hear/read about folks getting stuck out and about in winter -- it happens and it can happen to any of us too. Being a member of ETS forum is no vaccine to being caught unprepared. I take threads such as this as a serious reminder to not become complacent. Thanks.

I think there are two aspects of this story that can be beneficial examining: how you can prepare to survive this type of situation, and how you can avoid ending up in this type of situation.

Regarding this first aspect, it seems prudent to prepare for this as has been discussed here and elswhere. Dressing for the weather, not the car ride. Having a good winter emergency kit, methods for making fire, etc. There can be freak occurrances where you could find yourself in this situation despite your good decision making; and, perhaps more likely, we are all capable of making bad decisions no matter how much of this stuff we know.

The second aspect, avoidance, is where I think it especially makes sense for us to continue looking at current events eventhough we've discussed very similar cases in the past. The main thing worth looking at here, from my perspective at least, is the human aspect of the decision making process that led to the disaster.

In retrospect, Davis clearly sees the error he made:

"I should have turned around right then and gone about 5 miles back to where I had turned in," Davis said. "So, I goofed right there."

I wouldn't be surprised if a man like Davis, given his future as a hypothetical situation would have made the right choices to avoid disaster. There's every possibility he could have seen the Kim situation retold on TV and easily identified what went wrong and what Kim should have done.

But I think things often look much different when we are in the driver's seat.

Looking at the brief description from the linked article we see a glimpse of the progressive, worsening nature of Davis' situation:

The couple drove their Buick for miles up the forest road, which became more and more impassable the farther they traveled. The car bottomed out several times, punching a hole in the transmission oil pan and making it impossible to drive anymore.

I can see how this could have played out - we're often driven to overcome adversity rather than give into it. Maybe it's a combination of determination, optimism, pride and, heck, even testosterone that motivates us to believe we can overcome whatever is being thrown at us.

I know I'm not the only guy who when faced with things like brutal weather and dicey road conditions has reacted with the determination that I would not allow the weather to stop me; that I would overcome and not allow defeat.

Maybe by seeing these events come to pass and examining the details we will be reminded when and if our day comes that overcoming the obstacles in our path is not the only answer. Maybe under our confidence we will be reminded that other confident men took this path to the detriment of their family. Maybe that will help us make better decisions and stay out of the headlines.

One thing that this incident has done is firmed my resolve even more: I'm saving my pennies to either buy an InReach if they come out with an iPhone-compatible version, or I'll end up buying a PLB. I'm pretty well-prepared to spend a weekend in a snowbank or similar location, but I'd sure rather have good communications to be able to avoid such.

Thanks gang. I'm glad that this thread is back where it should be.

This story has made me reflect on my two vehicle malfunctions last winter. (Lost the interior heater blower fan on the first, and the catalytic converter the on second.) My family (DH, DD and DS) were lucky that both happened close to home, relative to where we were planning on travelling during those trips, and also on major well-travel roadways. If either happened later in the trip we could easily have been somewhere with no cel phone coverage and hardly any vehicles passing by. We didn't get stuck but both trips were slow and cold, and resulted in chilly diagnostic jerry-rigging time spent on the side of the road.

My family has always poked fun at my preparedness, especially the gear in my trunk, but not on those trips. It's easy to have a "it can't happen to me" attitude or to simply not think about it. Winter weather can be unpredictable and even if the worst doesn't happen, it's always preferrable to wait out whatever it is in comfort. My dad has always said "Travel not just to arrive but to survive!"

Also, filing a trip plan, including route and ETA is super important. If we had of broken down in the the middle of nowhere and weren't able to call them, key people knew what route we were taking and when we were expected. Even then we may have had to wait a while before a search started and found us so, again, waiting in comfort would have been preferable.

Blankets, extra hats, mitts and sweaters, water, food, a way to heat water, warm drinks, chemical warmers, flashlights, flares, etc... are all vital components of my witner car kit. I also tent, tarp, sleeping bag, paracord, fire starters, candles, shovel, etc. onboard in case we need to overnight, and on long trips we add snowpants for everyone too!

It's so easy to get started: Just go stand in your driveway on a cold day and think about what you wish you had with you and throw that in a bag in the trunk along with some snacks and water.

Going a bit off topic, but that reminds of a car we had years ago; the car had issues and I had already said enough was enough and that I wouldn't fix anything else on it. Of course it was the middle of winter so the next thing to go was the heater.

So here's a tip for those who may run into this in the future: if your heater goes out and its very cold out (i.e., middle of Canadian Prairies winter cold) the only way to see out of your windshield is to drive around with your windows down. Keeping the temperature the same inside & out keeps the windshield from freezing over inside.

We did that for a while until I broke down and bought a new car. In those days we would have definitely been prepared for the weather if the car broke down

Yes, good points.

The other thing that I think is worth considering, is when is the best choice to stay put, and when is the best choice to go seek help? Not an easy or cut and dried decision by any means. As we all know, the text book answer is to always stay put. Stay with the car....boat...snow machine...whatever. As a default option, this is good advice. It is much easier for searchers to find a fixed person. A car or boat or whatever is much easier object to spot than an individual person. The vehicle can provide shelter and other items you can use.

However, there are times when the default "stay where you are" option may not be the best choice. Some things to consider:
How soon will I be reported missing?
Does anyone have any idea where to start looking?
How likely (or not) is it that someone else will come along by shear chance?
How long can I survive in my present location? & Are there any immediate dangers staying where I am?
Is it reasonable to think I could walk out? How fit am I? How severe are the conditions?
Should we all try to walk out? Or does it make more sense for the strongest person to do it?

If thinking about walking out, always carefully consider the pros and cons of staying put vs self rescue. If you do decide to attempt to walk out, it is probably best to make that decision early, before you become exhausted, hypothermic, run out of food, etc.

It is interesting to me how this question paralles the current discussion on the "Best response to always get out of town?" thread.

Couple of observations:

1) When reviewed with the cliched 20/20 hindsight, it is extremely hard to keep in mind how the situation looks to the guy who's in it at the time, even if you now have accurate info (which we often don't). It's like the chief problem with portraying real history in a movie: you (as the audience) have lots of information and perspective the characters don't have. Think of a realistic war scene. So that they can be told the story, the audience has all kinds of info (where the enemy is, what the enemy's motives/plans are, etc) that the hero(es) lack. It is hard to convey the situation's chaos, ambiguity, and indecision plaguing the hero. Maybe a poor analogy but I hope you see what I mean.

2) The photos from the New Mexico story show an open landscape (no canopy). A $99 SPOT-2 "toy PLB" would likely have had no trouble getting a signal out.

An interesting test some day would be for peops to overnight in a campground -- in winter -- with only the stuff we normally carry in our vehicles.

And pretend the car is broken - so no heater, period.

Gaps in most of our preps would quickly appear. In my case, I really need to put my 20-degree or zero-degree sleeping bag in my SUV, and keep it there. Meanwhile, I have a fleece sleeping bag liner, chemical warmers, loads of fire-making materials (including fatwood).

The coldest temperature I've camped in was 19 degrees overnight - inside an unheated but insulated (R-11) teardrop trailer.

Not sure which sleeping bag I was using but I was also head-to-toe in fleece (hat, neck gaiter, mittens, socks, long underwear) and still I was cold. I slept okay but it was not a great night's sleep -- and that was in a much better situation than I would be in if I were stranded with my vehicle.

Toss into the equation the stress of actually being stranded and it really is unimaginable what would go through your mind and the effect of that on your physical wellbeing and decision making.

This past Saturday I had the edifying experience of a last-second decision to meet a friend for a walk with our pups at Great Falls National Park on the Potomac River outside the Beltway. I had a breakfast that morning so met my friend afterward at the park. I had worn or brought a few things in anticipation of the walk - Smartwool socks, hiking shoes, warm but not my warmest coat. I always have warm gloves/mittens in the car -- 24/7/365.

But I'd forgotten just how much colder the park could get compared to the restaurant area a few miles away. It was not windy at the restaurant and it was quite gusty at the park -- so a cold day at the restaurant became quite a lot colder at the river. And I'd taken some of my gear out of the car the previous weekend to make room for something I had to haul. My bag of fleece was one of the things no longer in the car.

Oh how I longed for my warmest fleece hat, ear muffs and neck gaiter -- which were at home, 14 miles away! Fortunately, I did have my BOB in the car and had winterized it recently -- in there was a balaclava and a fleece headband that has a slit for a golf/baseball hat to fit into.

A bit into our walk I was comfortable but as soon as I got home I dumped out that bag of fleece, broke it into ziplock freezer bags (hats, mittens, neck gaiters) and discovered that I could stuff them into a couple of interior sidewall compartments in the car. I now have three of each of those items in the car -- I like to have extras for friends or, in an emergency, strangers.

Today I went to the supermarket and bought some food items to be put into a Lock & Lock container and stored in the car for the winter.

Still, five days stranded in my vehicle on a snowy mountain road would be miserable and life-threatening.

And I'm nowhere near 80 years old.

This is an extremely cogent and important point IMO. Unless you have a lot of food/water/heat/etc resources on hand, I think too few appreciate the importance of WHEN you decide to go/no-go. In a limited resource environment, the option of going may evaporate (sometimes literally...) after 24-48 hours.

A slight variation on this if your ventilation fan works but your heater doesn't: Adjust so the fan blows cold air on the window... Drove for two hours in -10C (5F) like that with my wife and kids wrapped up in the back seat. Not really a problem, but I was glad that the trip wasn't longer or that the weather wasn't colder. My wife and kids were fine, but the driver (me!) had to stick my forehead right into the cold airstream...

Being equipped for a weekend stay-over in winter (lots of warm sleeping bags and clothes) made the difference between a slight nuisance and two hours of hellish, brutal cold. We also had the option of waiting a few hours to catch public transport (train or bus) - which we probably would have done if our sleeping bags hadn't been available.

Dennis, you're spot on.

Laurence Gonzales says a lot of similar things in his book: Deep survival (obligatory reading, IMO). Anyone should know that making bad decisions against better knowledge is something we're ALL bound to do, at some point or other.

I've read about very experienced mountaineers that make decisions beforehand: If I'm not at the summit at X o'clock I must turn around because if I don't I won't make it before dark. Even for them, the best decisions are thrown out the window when "summit fewer" sets in.

Personally, I take great satisfaction in mastering challenging weather conditions, wether on road, boat, foot or skiis. I must put in an extra effort to make the decision NOT to always "press on" when things get a bit rough.

How do we deal with this? I think a good place to start is to realize our decision process is influenced by a lot more than cold, rational thinking. In fact, most of it is automatically and triggered by emotions: Did you have a good time when you did something similar? Yes, I felt pretty darned good the last time I plunged through the snow banks with my vehicle. So I'm more inclined to press on than I should be using cold, rational logic.

Whenever I review the winter vehicle kit (such as I doing now for next week's travel about 300 miles up north), I always refer back to this thread for ideas that I might incorporate into the seemingly ever evolving winter vehicle kit.

One thing I cannot stress enough is the importance of keeping the gas tank full as possible and carrying extra gas with you. For example, next week, 2 x 5 gallons of gas will be riding in the back as around here and all too often, the mountain passes are suddenly closed for hours due to extreme snowfall and or equally extreme avalanche conditions. When the temperatures drop well into double digits below zero, there are not too many home brewed ways of keeping warm and being able to run the vehicle engine periodically without worrying (as much) about running out of fuel is a big plus.

That said, earlier this fall, I picked up a Mr. Buddy portable heater as recommended by a friend who uses one to keep their small trailer warm in the fall months. If need be, the heater can be setup in the back of the truck and would keep the interior comfortably warm without having to run the vehicle engine. I tested this theory a couple of weeks ago and let the heater run for about 3 hours with the outside temps were just below zero. The heater kept the interior almost too warm so it should be fine when the temps are much lower.

As for the stay vs go for assistance dilemma, this is a very tough call depending on the situation. If you are snowed in on a highway or trafficked secondary road, you would probably better off to stay put as road or emergency crews will appear at some sooner rather then later point.

On the other hand, if you find yourself off road or on an old barely used side road, the decision of stay/go is much more difficult as it is tempered with too many human, terrain and environmental variables. As I said, tough call and even though at first glance, the right call may be to stay. It could also be the wrong decision. Case in point, is the couple who got lost in Nevada. The husband died while going for help and the wife lived (barely) subsisting on the very little food that they had until it was gone. However we will never know what may of transpired if the husband stayed and the food she had rationed would of been split between the two and thus consumed much faster and well before the wife's eventual rescue, 49 days later.

In most of the cited cases, what seemed to be lacking was the means to signal effectively, either the traditional fire,signal mirror, or whistle, or the more high tech = PLB, OnStar or equivalent. If you can call attention to yourself, the go-or-stay decision becomes trivial.

My sister in law used to commute between Bemidji, MN and Fargo, ND during the winter to teach classes. Her SUV was equipped with OnStar, along with the traditional items. It struck me as a darn good idea.

The one thing to be wary about with OnStar is that it's dependent on terrestrial wireless service. If you're stuck somewhere without cell service, OnStar can't help.

Learn something every day. So for many purposes, it is no better than your cell phone?

Well, that's not exactly what the salesman told me, but that's what I am starting to understand .

You can check out the OnStar coverage map for specifics, although I am still somewhat confused what "Limited OnStar service available" really means; areas without cell service are shown as this limited category while very few areas are labelled as no service available.

It used to use Verizon's network, which has better coverage than the rest, and has a better antenna. My parents, for example can make a call from their car sitting in their driveway deep in the valley and I have to take my phone part way up the mountain. Then anyone else not on Verizon has to drive 1/2 way to town before they get a signal. Right at their house either my droid or company blackberry are right on the signal/no signal threshold and will eventually get some messages through if you just leave them sit but not quite enough signal to maintain a call so the external Onstar antenna helps there. I wonder if that new Onstar mirror that you can get as an add on has an external antenna or if its all in the mirror so it might not connect as well.

OnStar calls for help automagically if the airbags deploy. It tracks your car if you report it stolen and can kill the power remotely when the cops catch up to it, locking the thief or thieves inside. They can remotely unlock the doors if you lock yourself out. Exactly none of these things will work without cell service.

I never cease to be amazed at the folks who think OnStar is a true satellite service. Yes, it uses GPS navigation, but it communicates via cellular service, so just as you said, no tower, no communication. And as others have commented, there are still weird and unexpected gaps in cellular service in the U.S. You don't need to be in the middle of a national forest to find yourself out of range. OnStar provides lots of convenient services, but dependable emergency communication in fringe areas is not one of them.

OK, now that's cool.

HJ

Story breaks my heart. Gonna go hug my wife.