Hello everyone,

I recently was informed that pellet/air guns had improved since I was a lad. A quick search showed the incredible power of the new guns. It seems I'm a bit behind the 8 ball.

Is anyone here up to date with the technologies? Here is what I am looking for (if anyone is in the loop):

A rifle that is extremely durable and needs little maintenance. .22 Cal with the same power (or greater) as a .22 LR (I am Canadian and have my PAL). It would be great if the gun was light and relatively silent. Cost isn't a factor.
The use would be for a survival rifle that is capable of taking out small-medium game at a max distance of 30-50 yards. I'm in good shape so cocking strength is not an issue.
I'd prefer not to need an external separate pump.

I'm basically thinking of an AR7 Survival Rifle -Pellet gun.

I know I'm WAY out of my knowledge base...yes Any ideas, suggestions or sources of information are welcome!

Yours truly,

NIM

Honestly, if you want the same power as a .22lr, you're really going to have to step up to a larger caliber in airguns. .22 cal pellets are significantly lighter in weight than typical .22lr rimfire bullets, which means they don't carry the same energy, even when traveling at the same or slightly greater velocities.

Now, high-end .25 caliber pellet guns send a ~30gr pellet around 850ft-sec. This is roughly comparable to a rimfire .22short. But, .25 caliber guns tend to be quite heavy and .25 caliber pellets are more difficult to find than .22 or especially .117 cal pellets.


With that said, if you understand the limitations of .22cal air-rifles, they can take small game with ease. Beeman and RWS make good fixed-barrel .22cal airguns. Unfortunately, I doubt you are going to find any .22 cal airgun worth a darn that is the size and weight of an AR-7, especially if it doesn't use gas.

My suggestion would be to see if you can try out a few different pellet guns to see if you can find something that works for you, within the limitations of airgun design. It's a bit more complicated than a rimfire, as the size and weight of the air-rifle has a much greater correlation to the level of power one can expect.

I would just cut to the chase and get an AR-7. I have used one satisfactorily for years.

You can find some powerful airguns, but you won't come close to finding one in .22 caliber that is anywhere near as powerful as a .22LR firearm. You would need to look at the big bruiser air rifles.

Something like this: http://www.airgunstyle.com/big-bore-dragon-claw-pcp-pellet-air-rifle-050-cal-p-23946.html

Pellets for it are NOT cheap though: http://www.airgunstyle.com/air-venturi-5...nly-p-2341.html

And you'd have to find a setup to charge it with.

Powerful air guns are not silent by any means. A subsonic .22LR round in a rifle is quieter than many high power airguns. However you can get some precharged pneumatics with silencers built in.

Like this one: http://www.airgunstyle.com/airforce-talon-ss-pcp-pellet-rifle-022-cal-p-793.html

But this Talon model is not in the power class you are wanting.

I would recommend you just get a .22LR firearm. Air rifles are fine for hunting squirrels and such, but if you want to go much bigger than a small rabbit without upgrading to exotic air guns, you're really in firearm territory.

I have found many of the High-powered air guns are Alot louder than a .22 long rifle hyper-v round,the airguns are usually heavier,Forget about a follow-up shot that just ain't gonna happen!On the otherhand,living in a place where firearms can get your freedom revoked,I would look for a Benjamin pump action in .177,As that caliber has more variable types of ammo & higher muzzle velocity as well.I mention Benjamin because I've had mine for 40+ yrs & it still shoots fly's off the wall at 20 paces,It's the AK of airguns IMHO,my 10/22 Ruger is lighter with a 10rd mag,it shoots fly's off the wall at 50 paces,heck!,it shoots thru a wall if I need it to!

I have taken a lot of small game with my Winchester 1000X pellet rifle. Its rated range is 300 yards, but with with my middle-aged eyesight and Copperhead .177 cal pointed hunting pellets, I limit my shots and easily take rabbits at 50-75 yards. The rifle makes a loud 'popping' sound when fired and if I were to ever purchase another one, I would get the silencer model.

As others have mentioned, good air rifles are surprisingly powerful, very low maintenance. Ammo is cheap and almost unregulated, and my brand comes 250 rounds to a metal can the size of a snuff can. The rifle is under $150.00

Incidentally, avoid the air rifles that have a big recoil pad. The 'recoil' of an air rifle is forward!

Since, as you alluded to, this type of air gun seem to fall under the same restrictions in Canada as regular long guns (e.g., the need for a PAL), I'm curious what advantages an air rifle would have over a simple 22?

Good question. Thank you for your suggestions everyone. I'm looking into all of them.

Here is what I was thinking. Given the following scenario:

1) World goes to heck and
2) My house burns down (or is burned down)and
3) Backup location is destroyed.

Then I'm out in the bush without resupply. I've got caches and an AR7, but my brainstorm was "Man I have to clean this thing after every shooting session. That means a cleaning rod, rags, oil and solvent to carry, and rags,oil and solvent expire or get used up. What with the end of the world and all I sure would like to keep my go-bag weight down and not have to carry so much.

So how can I get around that? Air rifle! No corrosive solvents to worry about, ammo is lighter so I can cache or carry more. Should be closer to silent than my AR7 (which is good if you don't want to advertise that you just found game). If I run out of shots I can make darts in the wild. Heck, this is the year 2011 we should all have jetpacks by now I'm sure there are wonderful airguns around...at least as good as a .22 LR.

So here I am searching for a new toy. heeeheee

-NIM

just a comment... I have a pistolsmith friend that shoots airguns..they are not that foolproof as they rely on a system of seals and "O" rings that must be maintained...I think a .22lr would be a more reliable option...they don't need to be cleaned after each use...

AR-7 man here. This model is probably as close to maintenance free as they come. Most of the exterior surfaces are aluminum, and the rest are plastic. Providing you are using decent ammo, there is no necessity to scrub the bore, certainly not on a routine basis.

The action is accessible by unscrewing one screw holding a side plate. Working on it is fairly simple and straightforward, and not likely to be required.

With any firearm, one should have basic tools for maintenance and repair and basic lubricants. Most of these will also be necessary for the proper maintenance of other items in your inventory as well.

I often use my AR-7 as a single shot; in survival mode,I am sure that would be especially common in order not to squander ammo. Loading individual rounds means one could utilize 22 shorts or CB caps (sparingly, in order not to damage the chamber) and they would be pretty quiet.

Yea, I've got a Henry .22 lever gun sitting here that hasn't been cleaned since I bought it a few years ago. It must have a couple thousand rounds through it by now and it still shoots just fine. If the AR-7 won't do that, there are plenty of other .22 rifles that will.

Some people go nuts with scrubbing the bore and what-not, but you really don't need to unless you're shooting something like black-powder or other corrosive ammunition. A bore-snake, a rag, and a bottle of CLP is plenty of cleaning supplies for a bug-out bag or whatever.

I haven't used an ar-7 so any comments on it would be unfair -- which won't stop me from saying that when purchasing a rifle of this sort I was concerned about a lot of comments in rifle forums to the effect that it had a problem with jamming.

I decided on a marlin papoose -- 70PPS I believe. It's been very very reliable. It's a takedown 22lr, goes together easy, and comes with a 7 round mag and a carrying case that floats. Very light.

having own a number of AR-7 by numerous makers over the last 40 years, i'm sorry to have to disagree with hikermor, but i personally can't recommend them for survival use. they don't handle particularly well, all had poor triggers, magazines aren't impressive, accuracy so-so, and quality ranged from very-poor to just ok.

while the 10/22 is about the most reliable 22LR auto rifle made, and the magazines are high-quality-yet-inexpensive, they are somewhat limited by what reliably functions though them (ie: while one can hand-feed a 22CB short, it isn't fast, fun or easy).

i've owned boatloads of other autos, bolt actions, single shot bolts, break-opens, combo 22lr/shotguns, and levers during this search.

after trying everything i could get my hands on since the 70's, i settled on the lever-action marlin 39A series as my "survival" rifle.

my favorite fodder for it is CCI's subsonic 22LR #0056 that is far quieter than any pellet rifle i've owned (and quieter than many suppressed firearms). and my old mountie feeds all 17 rds, without a hitch, into one hole.

plus in recent years these levers even came in stainless steel for additional weather protection, if that's important to you.

this is off topic, but close...a Savage model 24C (campers companion) .22lr/20ga over under would probably be my choice if foraging with a .22 caliber rifle was my primary objective...take down, break open action accomodates a variety of .22 ammunition options.. and 20ga slug for a larger toothy critter...I let mine get away from me

re: Savage model 24C

i once thought this might be the best option too. two tools in one!

after i found one and saw it might work for my needs, i added a custom rear adjustable peep sight, enlarged the storage hole in the buttstock to take additional ammo, added slings, had the trigger action polished and when all that was done, i then put enough ammo through it to really learn it. even killed some game with it.

unfortunately it wasn't what i hoped it would be.

even after the trigger was smoothed a bit, it still had a lot to be desired. it appears the quality of those materials coupled with less-than-perfect alignment/tolerances meant i couldn't get it any better.

worse yet, a trigger part soon failed on me in the field, which had to be replaced.

i also found it was a bit slow to bring into action because it needs the hammer cocked right before firing. plus you have to decide which barrel to use by flipping a lever on the hammer (allowing the firing pin to hit either the 22lr or 20ga). and that little lever should be check before every shot because it can be change simply by accident. it wasn't quite as easy to remember to do as choosing which barrel on some SXS or O/U shotguns, so sure enough, more than once i fired the wrong barrel at game.

on the other hand, if the quality had been better (i even tried a second one a couple years later, thinking maybe my problem was just my unhappy memory of the first one), and if i spent more time with them, it might have worked out. i'm sure it has for others.

i'm not saying it isn't a good concept, and a fun hiking companion, just that it didn't work out for me as a serious SHTF survival tool.

WC...I'm spoiled too.. my STC 10/22 has a 22oz trigger...

Here's my bug-out rifle. No action that needs cleaning. Simple, robust, nothing to break to speak of. Take down - no tools required (just your hands!) Ultra lightweight. Has a .22 and a .410bore barrel (410 not shown). If I want quiet (airgun power), I'll shoot Super Colibri ammo (that is quieter in this rifle than my air rifles are). Robust peep sight, not a bulky and fragile scope. Note that the sights are installed on the barrel only, unlike the AR-7 that has one sight on the barrel and one on the receiver - that could lead to sight misalignment after taking down and reassembling the AR-7. This rifle cost me $69 new with the two barrels (on sale last year). Peep sight was $20 on sale (Williams WGRS). Sling is homemade in U.S. GI issue style from parts I bought at an REI outdoor store (about $5 for the parts). I made the sling myself rather than purchasing one so it would be ultra light too, in keeping with the gun. The trigger on this rifle is very good and it is very accurate. Stock is hollow and good for storing ammo inside if that's what you want to do. The whole thing weighs only 4 lbs with the .22 barrel installed.

cute short little low-cost outfit, haertig! (what's the brand?)

It's a Rossi Matched Pair.

thnx paul

Specifically, the Rossi YOUTH Matched Pair in .22/.410 I wanted the smallest size for easy packability. I have no problems shooting a short length-of-pull rifle. If you want a longer LOP, just add a small sized slip-on recoil pad. Or buy the adult sized version. Some people who use these for bug-out guns actually remove the plastic buttplate, leaving the hollow stock exposed. They stuff the stock full of whatever, and then use a slip-on recoil pad to "seal things up" (use the recoil pad as a removeable buttplate).

The rifle is normally $149 or $159 around here I think. Dick's Sporting Goods had it on sale for $109 on last years (2010) Black Friday. And Rossi had a $20 rebate. And then Dick's gave me an extra $20 for coming in on Black Friday! So the total price came down to only $69 dollars. Can't complain about that! Dick's also had the same gun for the same price in a .22/20ga configuration. I waffled between which to choose, and ended up with the .410 for no particular reason.

Just curious - does anyone here have experience with the various models of the Kel-Tec SU-16 or SU-22? This is the weapon that was reviewed on ETS a few years ago. It allows you to move up to the 223 cartridge which is a significant boost in power and also cost....

I have a Kel-Tec SU-16B. It is in many respects an outstanding rifle. It's super reliable and with excellent accuracy using the iron sights. A couple of important things I've learned about it:

• You really need the sling kit from Kel-Tec. Without it you wont have sling swivel mounts.
• The charging handle is easy to install incorrectly, which I learned to my chagrin prevents the rifle from firing. Don't do that. The replacement "deflector" charging handle is well worthwhile -- it deflects spent cartridge cases away from you, and gives you an obvious visual clue to prevent it from being installed incorrectly.
• The optional rubber butt extender adds a little overall length and a lot of shootability.
• The front post sight on mine could not be adjusted downwards far enough. I fixed it by filing it down (Leatherman Wave saves the day again!) and shimming up the rear sight.
• The picatinny-style rail on mine isn't lined up quite right with the bore. Forget about getting a red dot sight or a scope working with it. I've read that this is a common issue.

sorry, please disregard

No, as a matter of fact, I am not referring to using an adapter. Kel-Tec has a model SU-22 which is chambered fro the 22 LR. I just noticed it on their web page.

For what you spend on a high end Airgun, you can have a decent survival gun. Heck you could by a marlin 22 and an H&R 12 Gauge for the price of one high end Air rifle. I have never seen the attraction.

Fair enough. One attraction is the low sound-level of airguns. That and the many other attractions have been thoroughly dead-horsed elsewhere.

That being said, I have decided that a very excellent option that sort of combines what I see as the advantages of airguns and regular firearms is the CB long cartridge in a .22 rimfire carbine or even long-barreled semi-auto pistol (more portable and packable). There's a high-quality short-barreled CZ bolt-action scout type or youth .22 RF rifle with an adjustable trigger (a very excellent feature of the older Beeman R1,R7, R9 etc airguns) that I think would be close to ideal with the CB longs for many purposes. Until then, I have an old Winchester 69A and a newer Marlin 60 that will do.

I don't believe I have ever used CB Longs. Do they have an effect on the 22LR chamber if used frequently? They certainly sound like a good solution to the noise issue.

I bought the SU-16A when it first came out. At the time that was pretty much the only decent option for .223 in CA (other than the Mini-14). It's a fun gun, but to be honest with the price and availability of AR-15 platform nowadays, I can't really say there's a whole lot of reason to go with Kel-tec, other than it's different. If the Su-16C were legal in CA, then maybe it would be a different story. An AR can be broaken down almost as quickly and easily into a small package, and the aftermarket is much bigger.

Nope, but then again I've never had a problem with shooting CB shorts out of .22lr chambered firearms either.

Supposedly, the point of CB longs was that some rifles have difficultly feeding CB shorts from their magazine due to the overall shorter length vs. a long-rifle cartridge. Now, it's worth noting that it doesn't really matter in semi-automatic firearms, as they won't typically cycle with cb shorts or longs anyway. However, there are a bunch of magazine fed bolt-action rifles on the market that would likely benefit from the easier feeding of CB longs.

Now, personally, I've got a Henry youth rifle chambered in .22lr/.22l/.22s that is fed from a tubular magazine. I love shooting CB shorts out of it, because I can fit 19 of them in the tube plus 1 in the chamber for a total of 20 rounds. With long rifle or CB long cartridges, that number is severely reduced. As an added benefit, being a lever action, it doesn't matter if I'm shooting .22lr or .22 cb short, both cycle just the same. All in all, it's one of my favorite rifles.

It's great. Such a handy and accurate little rifle. Ridiculously reliable as well, as I've shot some nasty .22lr ammunition out of it.

The only thing I didn't like about it was the lack of sling swivels, but that was easy enough to fix.



I also own a Marlin 336 youth rifle, which is nearly the same size in .30-30, but that just isn't as much fun to shoot. It's a lot more expensive and a lot more punishing. Plus, I can't shoot it at home like I can the little .22 with cb shorts.

Airguns are my main hobby I and I am up to date on what is available.

The first thing I will tell you is that with a pellet gun, velocity does not kill, only accurate pellet placement. Gamo is the very worst at promising high velocities with super lightweight inaccurate pellets and a terrible trigger. When a pellet goes much above 900 fps it starts to become unstable and looses accuracy. So with a more powerful gun you need heavier pellets to keep the velocity down. A good place to start reading to learn about airguns is www.yellowforum.com . Two dealers that have good information on their websites are www.pyramidair.com and www.airgunsofarizona.com .




The FX Independence is the only gun I can recommend that comes close to your wish list. However, it is still significantly less powerful than a 22 LR. The Independence is a big boy version of the old pumper you may have had as a kid. You precharge the reservoir with about 10-20 pumps but then recharge after every shot with only three pumps. This gun is quiet and will give 1/2" groups at 50 yards and is capable of 1" at 100 yards by and experienced airgun shooter.

If you are looking for a spring powered airgun I would recommend a RWS 54. It will give you the best chance of being a happy shooter for what you want.

David Enoch

re: quiet 22 rimfires -

a buddy purchased every brand and version of subsonic rimfires made, then tested them in revolvers, semi-auto pistols and rifles with barrel lengths from 16" to 24".

he then came up to my range and gave a demonstration of the best-of-the-best. after listening to each, and seeing what sort of velocities each gave, i settled on CCI 22LR 40 gr Subsonic HP #0056.

at around $7/100-rds, they're even a pretty good buy (the more you buy, the cheaper they get: available in boxes of 100, or cases of 500 or 5000)

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/266697/...ad-hollow-point

unlike short or long CB caps, these longer "long-rifle" cartridges have a heavier bullet, do not gum up the chamber, and are much more powerful. even without putting them over the chrony its easy to tell how much harder they hit the metal plates.

and in my 20" marlin lever they're quieter than any pellet rifle i've owned.

amazingly they even have enough power to fully function in the auto 10/22 rifle or beretta 87BB pistol.

CCI is hands-down the most reliable 22LR ammo manufacturer out there, according to my extensive (but unscientific) testing.